Recruiting Budgets

[Legal Jacket]

Co-sign

Pretty much sums it up, Jerry. Gold glasses won't own up to the facts.

Most Tech fans are in denial about the recruiting situation, unfortunately. And I get it to a point; you want to spin everything positively on a message board and that makes you feel more optimistic as you casually stroll along through your daily duties. But face facts gentlemen. Some of these excuses are BEYOND absurd.

Stating the facts, and not making excuse after excuse after excuse after excuse, does not make one a debbie downer or even a negative person. I personally think the fact that we don't have more straight shooters is one reason we suffer as a fan base. Let's start questioning the concerns about recruiting to the staff and administration. What in the hell does that hurt? And don't accept the cliche "we're getting who we want" answers. I promise, we're not getting the majority of the studs we'd like to have that actually do qualify to get in.

We ALL LOVE TECH and want us to recruit better. Just remember that. But if you lay your head on your pillow at night and think "aww, we're just too far behind the 8ball here at Tech" then YOU SIR are the problem. There are academic hurdles, we're GD WELL AWARE OF THEM, but we should recruit better than we have been, period. The problem is not the "non-season ticket holders" as someone mentioned earlier (how the hell does that even make sense?). If I purchase a season ticket from Milwaukee and donate every ticket to a GA local it's not gonna change the perception of most of you gold glass wearing individuals. I donate more money each year than a lot of season ticket holders, and I'm happy to do my part. But that's an asinine statement to make, especially (if) directed to people living out of state.

And stop pointing to the fact that Gailey only brought in one good class. We're well aware of that. Gailey should've recruited better overall - fact. Johnson sure as hell should be recruiting better overall - fact. It can be done, even if only one class proved it. Stop slanting everything just because you love the program. Just be real about it.

Sorry for the long rant, but the excuses in this thread are getting deeper. It's like talking to a brick wall.

We're spending more money on recruiting than most of you thought - fact. And the peanut gallery won't even acknowledge it, they just pile an exception on top of an excuse hidden under another exception. "Well, Clemson hides their true dollars spent", "Private jets aren't what PJ uses", etc.

Our staff needs to sell our program better and recruit better - fact.

But I do have a good feeling about Robertson for some odd reason, even after the 50 page recruiting carnival. I think we land this stud.

1) Fans who don't go to the games are the problem. Period. When Campbell's dad is tweeting out "60k v 100k" in reference to the difference between our stadium and LSU's, that's a problem. Period. You may donate an undisclosed amount of money to Georgia Tech, or maybe even to the football program generally, but unless you are coming to games you sir are part of the problem. Period. The most obvious thing keeping us from being an elite program is averaging approximately 50k or less fans per game, especially when we are in a city of 6 million.

It makes tons of sense. You want to recruit better? The 4 and 5 star kids we keep whiffing on want to play on the biggest stage possible. They think they are the best (perhaps rightfully so) and so they want to play for the best and in front of the most people. If you are the worlds best soccer player - are you going to play in Europe in front of bigger crowds and tougher competition, or are you going to want to play in the MLS just because it is closer to where you are from? We are basically fans of an MLS team complaining that we can't bring in the Lionel Messis of the world.

You alone may be incapable of making a difference, but your attitude is shared by many many people. If just 5k more tech fans showed up to the games that would make a big difference. The stadium would go from noticeably empty at some games to full. And would go from noticeably clemson/uga heavy to more mixed.

2) I'm not sure how one class proves anything. That's basically 6 recruits. More of an aberration than proof of anything.

3) Money isn't the issue at all - nobody is saying it is. All money does is help us identify more players. The problem is that the vast majority of 4-5 star guys have no desire to play for us. none. they want to play in the sec in front of 90k people. we don't come close to offering either one of those things. at least clemson and fsu draw fans. and, oh yeah, they are going to have to take calculus. They can't major in english or african american studies or any of the hundreds of majors offered by normal schools.

until we draw more fans or expand our offerings GT will remain one of, if not the most, difficult school to recruit to.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Of course Peterson isn't going shrug his shoulders and say iiwii. Look what happened to the last guy who said it was unrealistic to win 9-10 games a year here - fans didn't like them too much.

It's off base to compare the B school to our football team. For one, Tech has one of the largest endowments of any school at over a billion dollars. There are about 20-25 "major" (including Vandy, SMU) football schools ahead of us in endowment. Tech's original management program was so successful it became its own school - Georgia State. The whole point of Tech's management school was to fill an established need for management training in technology, which is why the industrial management degree was established in 1934 - that associated master's degree was the first professional management degree offered in the state of georgia.

That's not even getting into your false statement that the B school has ever been lightly regarded. Just looking at 1950s graduates alone, the school has churned out significant businessmen, executives at Amex, INVESCO, Delta, Lockheed Martin, Westinghouse, Habersham & Cowan, ComSouth, Merrill Lynch, etc. I've lived in the city of Atlanta for over 20 years, and I've not once heard anyone credible "lightly regard" GTs business school.

It's also foolish to compare the B school to football because the economics are completely different. The market for a tech-focused management degree demanded a program like GTs, especially in the southeast. That's a natural fit. It's easy for a top engineering school to recruit brilliant minds and then offer them a science-related business learning opportunity should they decide that science isn't for them.

The same isn't true at all for football, and GT is not presented with any synergies in that regard. Those wonderful science students that support the b school? They are a negative weight on a football program since they don't bother to show up for the games.

In sum - it's not linear at all to recognize GTs shortcomings. No other major program has as few majors as we do, as few alumni as we do, and as few fans as we do. Those are facts, not excuses. When other programs are bringing in over $100 more in revenue than you are, and more than doubling your average attendance, those are also facts, not excuses.

Nobody has a defeatist attitude. Nobody is guilty of linear thinking. That's why we support CPJ. Of course GT is working on improving the fan experience - just as they have for the last decade.

But your use of cliches demonstrates that our problems are not easy to solve - if they are, in fact, solvable, which they may not be. We can't just snap our fingers and assume people will buy a product that they consider worth the money. It doesn't work that way. Ever wonder why the Braves stadium had tons of empty seats in the 90s, including in the playoffs? That wasn't because they put up a subpar team. What else can GT do to improve the fan experience? They've already done up the whole jacket walk, add a ton of pregame festivities on the north end of the stadium, added a premium tailgating area, added the fifth street bridge area for tailgaiting, added more premium seating in the stadium, added more and better food options, etc. etc. They've invested in massive marketing efforts (#togetherweswarm?). When recruiting was proving to be problematic, we hired more people to help.

At the end of the day though, just saying that "GT should be a showcase, not a doorstop" ignores every reality we face. Why shouldn't any other team we play be a showcase? What makes GT so much more special that we should automatically compete with teams that have more money and easier paths than we do. Being a GT fan to me has always been about trying to do more with less. It's great when we win, but pretending our football program isn't presented with innumerable hurdles is just ignoring reality. The opposite isn't "defeatist" - I promise I cheer louder than you and go to more games than you do. But expecting us to magically fix all of our shortcomings is a fools errand.

I'd also add that no problem is ever solved without first recognizing the problem and understanding it's contributing factors. Some want to turn a blind eye to the problem's causes and expect solutions. That's not how problem solving works and it's surprising coming from an educated/technical fanbase.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

1) Fans who don't go to the games are the problem. Period. When Campbell's dad is tweeting out "60k v 100k" in reference to the difference between our stadium and LSU's, that's a problem. Period. You may donate an undisclosed amount of money to Georgia Tech, or maybe even to the football program generally, but unless you are coming to games you sir are part of the problem. Period. The most obvious thing keeping us from being an elite program is averaging approximately 50k or less fans per game, especially when we are in a city of 6 million.

It makes tons of sense. You want to recruit better? The 4 and 5 star kids we keep whiffing on want to play on the biggest stage possible. They think they are the best (perhaps rightfully so) and so they want to play for the best and in front of the most people. If you are the worlds best soccer player - are you going to play in Europe in front of bigger crowds and tougher competition, or are you going to want to play in the MLS just because it is closer to where you are from? We are basically fans of an MLS team complaining that we can't bring in the Lionel Messis of the world.

You alone may be incapable of making a difference, but your attitude is shared by many many people. If just 5k more tech fans showed up to the games that would make a big difference. The stadium would go from noticeably empty at some games to full. And would go from noticeably clemson/uga heavy to more mixed.

2) I'm not sure how one class proves anything. That's basically 6 recruits. More of an aberration than proof of anything.

3) Money isn't the issue at all - nobody is saying it is. All money does is help us identify more players. The problem is that the vast majority of 4-5 star guys have no desire to play for us. none. they want to play in the sec in front of 90k people. we don't come close to offering either one of those things. at least clemson and fsu draw fans. and, oh yeah, they are going to have to take calculus. They can't major in english or african american studies or any of the hundreds of majors offered by normal schools.

until we draw more fans or expand our offerings GT will remain one of, if not the most, difficult school to recruit to.

Throw student apathy into the mix, too. When 2/3 of the student section is empty at kickoff against bigtime opponents, there's a problem.

 

[Legal Jacket]

Nice rant. Now give us some clue as to what we should and can be doing to better our recruiting. Complaining about a problem is no better than making excuses for it.

I'll give it a try on how to improve recruiting:

Draw more fans to each game. I've expanded my season tickets from 4 to 6 in the last few years in hopes of bringing more butts to bobby dodd. its an embarassment when we can't come close to filling the upper north - its even worse when our stadium is half full of our rivals' fans.

Continue to market as we have been. Togetherweswarm has been genius. We need to continue to fight the perception that GT is a school for nerds and sell the team as atlanta's college football team, etc. etc. Building more tailgating- or pregame-related infrastructure is a continued need. I'd also offer specials like the braves do for tickets at the top of the upper north to games that people don't want to go to. Offer free tickets to random season ticket holders for games like Pitt, Syracuse, etc. as perks.

Continue to spend more money on recruiting personnel. We aren't going to win many recruiting battles head to head with the big dogs. What we need to do is find solid players who want to be engineers or who naturally fit with our school and recruit the hell out of them. We are so uniquely situated we should focus on finding fit in a national search, rather than more exclusively focusing on top talent locally.

 

[Legal Jacket]

I'd also add that no problem is ever solved without first recognizing the problem and understanding it's contributing factors. Some want to turn a blind eye to the problem's causes and expect solutions. That's not how problem solving works and it's surprising coming from an educated/technical fanbase.

Exactly. The only way to solve our problems is to identify them and work toward solving them.

 

[Legal Jacket]

Throw student apathy into the mix, too. When 2/3 of the student section is empty at kickoff against bigtime opponents, there's a problem.

Drives me insane. I really like the effort CPJ has made to get international students familiar with the game in hopes of bringing them into the game.

I had the pleasure of attending a game at Stanford back in 2009. I'll never forget that game - Stanford had this white fullback looking RB who I'd never heard of who was amazing - turned out it was Toby Gerhart. They jumped out to an early 24-0 lead at halftime. And the stadium was completely empty (the security guy out front even gave us free tickets). EXCEPT for the student section, which was packed. We even tried to get into the student section, since the rest of the stadium was so boring, and there was no room.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

1) Fans who don't go to the games are the problem. Period. When Campbell's dad is tweeting out "60k v 100k" in reference to the difference between our stadium and LSU's, that's a problem. Period. You may donate an undisclosed amount of money to Georgia Tech, or maybe even to the football program generally, but unless you are coming to games you sir are part of the problem. Period. The most obvious thing keeping us from being an elite program is averaging approximately 50k or less fans per game, especially when we are in a city of 6 million.

It makes tons of sense. You want to recruit better? The 4 and 5 star kids we keep whiffing on want to play on the biggest stage possible. They think they are the best (perhaps rightfully so) and so they want to play for the best and in front of the most people. If you are the worlds best soccer player - are you going to play in Europe in front of bigger crowds and tougher competition, or are you going to want to play in the MLS just because it is closer to where you are from? We are basically fans of an MLS team complaining that we can't bring in the Lionel Messis of the world.

You alone may be incapable of making a difference, but your attitude is shared by many many people. If just 5k more tech fans showed up to the games that would make a big difference. The stadium would go from noticeably empty at some games to full. And would go from noticeably clemson/uga heavy to more mixed.

2) I'm not sure how one class proves anything. That's basically 6 recruits. More of an aberration than proof of anything.

3) Money isn't the issue at all - nobody is saying it is. All money does is help us identify more players. The problem is that the vast majority of 4-5 star guys have no desire to play for us. none. they want to play in the sec in front of 90k people. we don't come close to offering either one of those things. at least clemson and fsu draw fans. and, oh yeah, they are going to have to take calculus. They can't major in english or african american studies or any of the hundreds of majors offered by normal schools.

until we draw more fans or expand our offerings GT will remain one of, if not the most, difficult school to recruit to.

I agree with most of this except for the money part. There's a small subset of elite players who also value top notch education. Right now, they are going to Stanford and ND. We have to convince them choose us instead. More money will allow us to identify them earlier, stay on them longer and hopefully land some of them. Stanford and ND's reputations blows ours away and that's something that's hard for a lot of Tech grads to swallow, but it's true.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

To add to my previous post, more money could be useful in rooting out more SA's that fit our school and program culture outside the southeast. I'm not talking about a national "shotgun" approach, either. There are certain enclaves around the country that fit GT's unique mold, particularly in the NE in private schools. When Groh was here, we recruited the DC area nicely.

 

[first&ten]

In other news, Tech fans seem to have the same spirit they showed in 1969. Welcome to hotel California.

Good post Stinger, kinda like the same spirit they showed after the 1990 NC. Not a significant bump in season ticket sales. We went 8 & 4, then Ross went pro. RIP Glen Fry!

 

[dressedcheeseside]

In other news, Tech fans seem to have the same spirit they showed in 1969. Welcome to hotel California.

So the moral in Hotel California is Tech fans suck, who knew?

 

[Milwaukee]

Nice rant. Now give us some clue as to what we should and can be doing to better our recruiting. Complaining about a problem is no better than making excuses for it.

Just recruit better. Plain and simple - it's not rocket science.

A solution, let's see. Just shooting from the hip...maybe hire better recruiters??

I'm more so complaining about the people making excuses than I am the actual recruiting situation.

Jerry nailed it, it's not fitting their narrative - so round and round they go with the excuses to justify.

 

[Milwaukee]

1) Fans who don't go to the games are the problem. Period. When Campbell's dad is tweeting out "60k v 100k" in reference to the difference between our stadium and LSU's, that's a problem. Period. You may donate an undisclosed amount of money to Georgia Tech, or maybe even to the football program generally, but unless you are coming to games you sir are part of the problem. Period. The most obvious thing keeping us from being an elite program is averaging approximately 50k or less fans per game, especially when we are in a city of 6 million.

It makes tons of sense. You want to recruit better? The 4 and 5 star kids we keep whiffing on want to play on the biggest stage possible. They think they are the best (perhaps rightfully so) and so they want to play for the best and in front of the most people. If you are the worlds best soccer player - are you going to play in Europe in front of bigger crowds and tougher competition, or are you going to want to play in the MLS just because it is closer to where you are from? We are basically fans of an MLS team complaining that we can't bring in the Lionel Messis of the world.

You alone may be incapable of making a difference, but your attitude is shared by many many people. If just 5k more tech fans showed up to the games that would make a big difference. The stadium would go from noticeably empty at some games to full. And would go from noticeably clemson/uga heavy to more mixed.

2) I'm not sure how one class proves anything. That's basically 6 recruits. More of an aberration than proof of anything.

3) Money isn't the issue at all - nobody is saying it is. All money does is help us identify more players. The problem is that the vast majority of 4-5 star guys have no desire to play for us. none. they want to play in the sec in front of 90k people. we don't come close to offering either one of those things. at least clemson and fsu draw fans. and, oh yeah, they are going to have to take calculus. They can't major in english or african american studies or any of the hundreds of majors offered by normal schools.

until we draw more fans or expand our offerings GT will remain one of, if not the most, difficult school to recruit to.

I agree with a lot of your post...except the fact that me not being at home games makes me part of the problem. That finger should be pointed at the locals who support Tech. I had my season tickets when I lived down there.

But everyone is aware of the stadium issues and the academic hurdles. We get it. But that doesn't mean we aren't capable of landing more studs, yet we use it as a crutch non-stop.


I know my rant came off as argumentative but it's just frustrating hearing the same excuses pile up. We all want us to recruit better, we all want a full stadium, we're all on the same team.

Cheers mate.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Just recruit better. Plain and simple - it's not rocket science.

A solution, let's see. Just shooting from the hip...maybe hire better recruiters??

I'm more so complaining about the people making excuses than I am the actual recruiting situation.

Jerry nailed it, it's not fitting their narrative - so round and round they go with the excuses to justify.

So our recruiters are the problem? Have you even paid attention to what our recruits are saying as to why they chose Tech? Our message is getting across loud and clear. The problem is that most recruits, especially the elite ones, are not interested in what we have to offer. Unless we change what we have to offer, it doesn't matter who the messenger is.

How would Dabo sell GT any differently? If we hired him and his staff, would we instantly recruit in the top 10?

And don't give me GOL and Bobby Ross as examples of better recruiting. That was a different era, one w/o APR and one before flunkgate and NCAA probation. If you don't think that makes a difference, then I got nothing.

 

[Milwaukee]

How would Dabo sell GT any differently? If we hired him and his staff, would we instantly recruit in the top 10?

Come on Cheese, you don't think Dabo (an EXCELLENT recruiter) would recruit better here than our current staff is? I'm not saying top 10, I'm saying better than our current hauls.

If you truly believe that, then I got nothin.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Come on Cheese, you don't think Dabo (an EXCELLENT recruiter) would recruit better here than our current staff is? I'm not saying top 10, I'm saying better than our current hauls.

If you truly believe that, then I got nothin.

Oh, I forgot, he can dance. What can he say to kids the same?

 

[JacketFromUGA]

The whole "identifying kids earlier" motif has some merit but what gets lost in a lot of these discussions is the unpredictability of Teenagers.

Quite frankly it is not an easy variable to predict. You have recruits like Jalen Camp who might not even be playing football in the "earlier" stage everyone is talking about. Then you have kids like Ajani Kerr who don't develop into a D1 recruit until their senior season. How do you identify those earlier?

Not to mention the academic side of it. I teach underclassmen in HS so take it from me. Kids that look like they have the "Tech stuff" in the academics side the first two years of HS can certainly show they are not up to snuff in the upperclassmen years. It's just a fact of human development.

There is no magic fix button for any school's recruiting. Every school is different and is perceived differently by different areas and even different families in those areas. It's not a science so trying to dissect it out to be one won't lead to favorable results.

 

[AE 87]

I think what Stanford is doing in terms of encouraging guys to take AP classes has some merit to be considered. It gets them invested into getting into Tech early. Also it gives the coaches a measure of a kid's interest. Finally, it may help with APR by lessening the number of hours they need to take during a semester.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I think what Stanford is doing in terms of encouraging guys to take AP classes has some merit to be considered. It gets them invested into getting into Tech early. Also it gives the coaches a measure of a kid's interest. Finally, it may help with APR by lessening the number of hours they need to take during a semester.

I think we're already doing that, sort of. From what I've read a long time ago, we try to establish relationships early enough so that we can steer them into the appropriate coarsework in hs. Many recruits don't emerge onto our radar, however, until they are jr's and sr's.

 

[Legal Jacket]

I agree with most of this except for the money part. There's a small subset of elite players who also value top notch education. Right now, they are going to Stanford and ND. We have to convince them choose us instead. More money will allow us to identify them earlier, stay on them longer and hopefully land some of them. Stanford and ND's reputations blows ours away and that's something that's hard for a lot of Tech grads to swallow, but it's true.

I agree with you, just didn't state what I was thinking as clear as I should have. Money helps for identifying players, but it doesn't help change their minds (unless you are talking bag men).

 

[first&ten]

So our recruiters are the problem? Have you even paid attention to what our recruits are saying as to why they chose Tech? Our message is getting across loud and clear. The problem is that most recruits, especially the elite ones, are not interested in what we have to offer. Unless we change what we have to offer, it doesn't matter who the messenger is.

How would Dabo sell GT any differently? If we hired him and his staff, would we instantly recruit in the top 10?

And don't give me GOL and Bobby Ross as examples of better recruiting. That was a different era, one w/o APR and one before flunkgate and NCAA probation. If you don't think that makes a difference, then I got nothing.

OK dressed, you said it," most recruits aren't interested in what we have to offer" to me at least, that includes the TO. No sure pathway to the NFL if that's what they want to accomplish, in addition to getting an education.