Ranking the ACC for Prospective Coaches

orientalnc

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,471
Location
Oriental, NC
AE 87 said:
I agree with identifying tiers.

Fwiw, here's my logic:
Tier 1: Duke, UNC, LOLvl, nd, Cuse. Solid Programs with large, reliable, committed fan base. For this reason, they recruit themselves beyond just ACC.

Tier 2: cu, uva, nc st, fsu, d'oh U. Decent size fan base, periods of relevance in ACC and/or recruiting advantages for location; no major impediments to recruiting. A good coach could see breaking through on recruiting and building a program.

Tier 3: Pitt, GT, vpi, WF, BC. Smaller fanbases/less recent relevance in ACC and/or extra recruiting impediments for location or academics.
Click to expand...
NC State, UVA, and Pitt all have larger fan bases than Duke or ND. ND has a huge football fan base, but basketball is much less so.

But, I don't know if fan base or attendance is really the correct criteria. Basketball programs have cache based on how well they are perceived by basketball fans, to a certain degree, but especially by prospective players.

Example, Matt Doherty was not a good coach at UNC, and his record was far below what UNC expected, but UNC was able to push Doherty out and get one of the top coaches in the country to come to UNC in spite of the heavy handed way Doherty was pushed out. What, other than history, would make Roy Williams think UNC would be a better job than Kansas. Yes, he played at UNC, but Kansas is a great program as well.

There are a lot of Duke sidewalk fans all around North Carolina. I have relatives who barely graduated high school who are avid Duke fans. They have never attended a home game or contributed a dime to the program, but Duke is "their" team. When Coach K retiress, Duke will have no problem finding and hiring a top coach, but it won't be because those 9,000 fans who show up at Cameron are a large fan base. Also, as a side note, it isn't all that hard to get tickets to Duke home games as long as they are not playing UNC. I have seen us play twice at Cameron and saw Maryland with Juan Dixon play Duke the year Shane Battier won POY. The students camping out for free tickets leaves the impression that every Duke game is sold out. That isn't the case.
 
AE 87

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,016
orientalnc said:
NC State, UVA, and Pitt all have larger fan bases than Duke or ND. ND has a huge football fan base, but basketball is much less so.

But, I don't know if fan base or attendance is really the correct criteria. Basketball programs have cache based on how well they are perceived by basketball fans, to a certain degree, but especially by prospective players.

Example, Matt Doherty was not a good coach at UNC, and his record was far below what UNC expected, but UNC was able to push Doherty out and get one of the top coaches in the country to come to UNC in spite of the heavy handed way Doherty was pushed out. What, other than history, would make Roy Williams think UNC would be a better job than Kansas. Yes, he played at UNC, but Kansas is a great program as well.

There are a lot of Duke sidewalk fans all around North Carolina. I have relatives who barely graduated high school who are avid Duke fans. They have never attended a home game or contributed a dime to the program, but Duke is "their" team. When Coach K retiress, Duke will have no problem finding and hiring a top coach, but it won't be because those 9,000 fans who show up at Cameron are a large fan base. Also, as a side note, it isn't all that hard to get tickets to Duke home games as long as they are not playing UNC. I have seen us play twice at Cameron and saw Maryland with Juan Dixon play Duke the year Shane Battier won POY. The students camping out for free tickets leaves the impression that every Duke game is sold out. That isn't the case.
Click to expand...

LOL. You seem to have had some difficulty identifying the differentiating criteria, reducing my list to 1 criterion which you interpret narrowly.

First, the differentiation between my tier 1 and tier 2 is the current and enduring status of the program which results in it recruiting itself beyond just being conference members versus having no major impediments to recruiting or some recruiting advantages.

So, yes, my reference to fanbase was not just who shows up at the game but the popular regard of the programs so that possible recruits are fans or hear encouragement from fans etc. The fact is that there are a significant number of fans of the teams that I identify as tier 1 all over the country while this is less true for lower tiers.

I hope that clarifies.
 
Peacone36

Peacone36

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,369
Location
Maine
For me FSU is a simular job to Texas.


"Don't be embarrassment and make we don't rape any white girls.

Yeah I know, saw it , still wrote it
 
AE 87

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,016
orientalnc said:
LOL back at you. I assumed, since "large reliable fan base" was the only criteria for your tier one, that was what you meant. Silly me.
Click to expand...

Wow. I explained what I meant. I highlighted the words, Solid Program as an actual criterion different from other tiers and clarified what I meant by fanbase.

What's with the bbuzzoff crowd that makes them think they understand what others mean better than the others themselves?
 
Techster

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
17,859
Question: Is Duke really that attractive should Coach K leave?

1. You don't want to be the man who follows the Man.
2. We all saw what happened to Duke when Coach K went on a health sabbatical.
3. Coach K is Duke for all intents and purposes. Will the next coach have the kind of pull with recruits that K has? Duke wasn't "Duke" before coach K...unlike Kentucky, UNC, Indiana.

I guess the $$$ will be there, and we all know $$$ goes a long way in sports. I'm just not so sure Duke is on the same tier as the "blue bloods" should you take Coach K out of the equation.
 
Peacone36

Peacone36

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,369
Location
Maine
You can argue that K has made Duke into an attractive job. They will now have their choice of who comes after and its now very sought after. You could always say that UCLA basketball wasn't UCLA basketball before John wooden he set the bar and the expectation that high and now they are UCLA basketball
 
forensicbuzz

forensicbuzz

Helluva Engineer
Messages
8,118
Location
North Shore, Chicago
UCLA hasn't always done so well since Wooden left either. 2002/3 10-19; 2003/4 11-17; 2009/10 14-18; 2015/16 15-17.

Duke (with Coach K on sabatical) 13-18

It'll be interesting. Didn't realize Coach K has been at Duke for 35 years now.
 
Peacone36

Peacone36

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,369
Location
Maine
That's true. That may have been a poor example but it's also one of the 10 most sought after jobs in the country. UK was pretty mediocre at the end of Tubby and into Gillespie (Joe Crawford years)

Point being Duke is now Puke (universally hated/respected) and they have the money and the stick to wave around to do whatever they want and get whoever they want. Coach K is Duke absolutely, but now Duke is that little corner boy who just made his first $1MM deal and he has no interest in going back to selling dime bags.
 
forensicbuzz

forensicbuzz

Helluva Engineer
Messages
8,118
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I wasn't countering your arguement, just adding some data. UCLA, surprisingly to me, has done quite well since Wooden. They've done it somewhat quietly for the most part, but they've been in the thick of it most years. I tend to equate them with a once-great program that has slipped. Ignoring 7 straight NCs, they haven't slipped that much.

It will be interesting to see what Duke does once Coach K steps aside. It took a couple of coaches (Guthridge and Doherty) before they landed Roy back at UNC. That's not to say Guthridge and Doherty didn't have some success too.
 
Techster

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
17,859
It's all about talent. Will be interesting to see if Duke will pull in the type of talent they do now once Coach K leaves Durham. Of course, a good portion of that will be dependent on the next coach. Not sure they sign the same class of recruits if they stick to the Coach K tree.

UNC, Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana seem to always pull in a higher floor of talent regardless of what coach is in the seat. Of course, they get the right coach and those schools go from a perennial top 15 class to a top 3 class (See: Calipari).

Not sure if people remember, but GT was capable of pulling a top 20 class every year without trying too hard, and when our staff was on in certain years, we'd pull top 10 type talent (Just look at all the Pre-CBG players populating the NBA). That was BEFORE Atlanta become a hotbed for bball talent. Can't imagine what top shelf coach could do here now.
 
Peacone36

Peacone36

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,369
Location
Maine
Techster said:
It's all about talent. Will be interesting to see if Duke will pull in the type of talent they do now once Coach K leaves Durham. Of course, a good portion of that will be dependent on the next coach. Not sure they sign the same class of recruits if they stick to the Coach K tree.

UNC, Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana seem to always pull in a higher floor of talent regardless of what coach is in the seat. Of course, they get the right coach and those schools go from a perennial top 15 class to a top 3 class (See: Calipari).

Not sure if people remember, but GT was capable of pulling a top 20 class every year without trying too hard, and when our staff was on in certain years, we'd pull top 10 type talent (Just look at all the Pre-CBG players populating the NBA). That was BEFORE Atlanta become a hotbed for bball talent. Can't imagine what top shelf coach could do here now.
Click to expand...

Again, it goes back to their ability to literally attract ANYONE they want. Brad Stevens immediately comes to mind but if he were to leave the NBA right now id think it would be for Bloomington. I doubt he's leaving the Celtics though. He and Ainge are doing a hell of a job.

Do they really miss a beat in recruiting if Gregg Marshall, Mark Few, Mike White, Billy Kennedy come in? I don't think so. Could be wrong though. It's happened before, I think.
 
Techster

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
17,859
Peacone36 said:
Again, it goes back to their ability to literally attract ANYONE they want. Brad Stevens immediately comes to mind but if he were to leave the NBA right now id think it would be for Bloomington. I doubt he's leaving the Celtics though. He and Ainge are doing a hell of a job.

Do they really miss a beat in recruiting if Gregg Marshall, Mark Few, Mike White, Billy Kennedy come in? I don't think so. Could be wrong though. It's happened before, I think.
Click to expand...

Agree.

It also goes back to point #1...would any of them want to be the man to follow the Man? Will be interesting. Gotta think a guy like Gregg Marshall and his ego wouldn't want the baggage that Duke is "Duke" because of Coach K, no matter what a coach like Marshall may do afterwards.

Stevens is an interesting candidate. The coaching chops to step into Coach K's shoes, and he's been pegged as the successor for a while. Still young enough to carry a program for the next 20+ years. Of course, as you alluded to, it's all about timing.

No matter what happens, the Coach K shadow will be tough to get out of.
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,568
After the blue bloods, UNC, Duke, and maybe UL, the difference is minimal imo. The more attractive jobs at any given time are the ones with current talent on roster, meaning easier transition, and with a recent history of success, easier to recruit. Fortunately the jobs that have talent on roster and recent success don't usually come open so it's not really an issue.
 
Top