Practice Report 8/13

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,994
There are actually plenty of examples. Just named several off the top of my head.

One player's injury history doesn't prove anything. Sample case of one is just that, one case. Doesn't prove anything.

Last time I checked Gotsis and Attaochu played the whole year at similar weight-difference match-ups. So did many others in previous years or for other teams.

Last year's all-ACC defense:
DE - Vic Beasley, Clemson, 6-3, 225, Jr-R.., Adairsville, Ga. (161)
DE - Kareem Martin, North Carolina, 6-6, 265, Sr., Roanoke Rapids, N.C. (159)
DT - Aaron Donald, Pitt, 6-0, 275, Sr., Pittsburgh, Pa. (171)
DT – Nikita Whitlock, Wake Forest, 5-11, 250, Sr.-R, Wylie, Texas (156)

Great...you picked the exception in a year where two guys were similar to Green. Look at the historical All-ACC teams and you will find 2013 was the exception in those cases...while you're at it, look at the "ALL" SEC, PAC-12, B1G, and Big12 teams. Then go look at historical All-American teams. You said there are plenty of examples so this exercise should be easy for you.

One players case does prove something since we're talking about that one player. You can agree or disagree, but his track record speaks for itself.

Really, this is getting silly. Green is either healthy or he's not. He has not been. Period. If you don't think playing undersized as a DT isn't a factor, then good for you. There's a reason why Coaches and NFL talent scouts don't go recruiting a bunch of 6'0 250 lb DTs out of high school, or draft 6'0 280 NTs out of college.
 

cyptomcat

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
866
Great...you picked the exception in a year where two guys were similar to Green.
No I didn't, previous year it was Vellano at all-ACC DT, he was listed 6-2 285 at Terps. And these are just the best of the best from one conference, plenty on rosters everywhere.

I am not going to waste any more time on this.
 

thwgjacket

Guest
Messages
969
Great...you picked the exception in a year where two guys were similar to Green. Look at the historical All-ACC teams and you will find 2013 was the exception in those cases...while you're at it, look at the "ALL" SEC, PAC-12, B1G, and Big12 teams. Then go look at historical All-American teams. You said there are plenty of examples so this exercise should be easy for you.

One players case does prove something since we're talking about that one player. You can agree or disagree, but his track record speaks for itself.

Really, this is getting silly. Green is either healthy or he's not. He has not been. Period. If you don't think playing undersized as a DT isn't a factor, then good for you. There's a reason why Coaches and NFL talent scouts don't go recruiting a bunch of 6'0 250 lb DTs out of high school, or draft 6'0 280 NTs out of college.
I think you're thinking NFL size when looking at college players. Of course NFL guys are going to weigh more, they're grown men. 280-285 at DT is more than heavy enough in college. Look at VT, a school known for great defense in the ACC. Their depth chart lists their starting DT for this year at 6'2 262 and the guys behind him all weigh something similar. I don't understand your argument because we have Gotsis who is listed as only 5 lbs heavier and he seems to be a hell of a player. Yea, he's taller, but that also makes him thinner compared to Greene. All-American teams are compromised of athletic freaks, guys that could play in the NFL tomorrow. But good college DT's come in a lot of different sizes.
 

Boomergump

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
3,260
Green isn't getting hurt because he is 6-0 285. He is getting hurt because of one of the traditional reasons: conditioning, factors due to heredity, poor technique, lack of ability, or just bad luck. I agree that NFL teams have a prototype size in mind. However, they are not picking that size for their guys to avoid injury.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,674
Great...you picked the exception in a year where two guys were similar to Green.
I'm glad you said that. Exceptions is who we get, or need to get. We're not going to outrecruit the factories for the prototypes. But there are guys out there who don't fit the mold but are just as effective. Those are the guys that slip through the net and fall to us.

The guys who are the exceptions: the undersized guys, the late bloomers, the guys from another continent, the guys who just recently took up football and yes, the guys who are prototypical in all things except for some crazy reason, they value an education above all things. These are the exceptions that will make us great.
 

GTJackets

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
589
Location
Moncks Corner, South Carolina
Hey @Eric or @John, I appreciate the original practice updates. But this now seems like an appropriate thread to make this request. Can we create a Derailed tag so I don't waste too much time clicking on threads arguing the minutiae of player heights and the like? I mean this thread stopped being about practice back on page 1 I think. Color it black with a white font maybe?

Just a thought.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,994
I'm glad you said that. Exceptions is who we get, or need to get. We're not going to outrecruit the factories for the prototypes. But there are guys out there who don't fit the mold but are just as effective. Those are the guys that slip through the net and fall to us.

The guys who are the exceptions: the undersized guys, the late bloomers, the guys from another continent, the guys who just recently took up football and yes, the guys who are prototypical in all things except for some crazy reason, they value an education above all things. These are the exceptions that will make us great.

Or maybe they're why we've been hovering around the 7 win mark? There's nothing wrong with taking a chance on "exceptions", but the more you take the less margin for error.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,674
Hey @Eric or @John, I appreciate the original practice updates. But this now seems like an appropriate thread to make this request. Can we create a Derailed tag so I don't waste too much time clicking on threads arguing the minutiae of player heights and the like? I mean this thread stopped being about practice back on page 1 I think. Color it black with a white font maybe?

Just a thought.
Tangential topics spin off of most threads and it happens on all the boards. It's human nature, it happens in face to face discussion as well. It can be frustrating, however, when you click on a thread hoping to see an update on the stated topic.

My suggestion would be to have the new discussion moved into it's own thread if it's actually a quality discussion about GT football, rather than coding the original thread. What happens when the thread gets back on topic on it's own, like what also happens all the time? Do you have to keep changing the color?
 
Last edited:

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,674
Or maybe they're why we've been hovering around the 7 win mark? There's nothing wrong with taking a chance on "exceptions", but the more you take the less margin for error.
You misunderstand me, by exception, I mean guys who excel regardless of their perceived physical drawbacks. Excel is the key word. But of course, there's hits and misses with every kind of recruit, even the blue chippers. We're not going to make hay chasing the same dogs as the factories, that much I know. Just look at how many of the guys on our current commit list, one that you like, who list academics at or near the top of the reasons why they picked GT.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,994
I think you're thinking NFL size when looking at college players. Of course NFL guys are going to weigh more, they're grown men. 280-285 at DT is more than heavy enough in college. Look at VT, a school known for great defense in the ACC. Their depth chart lists their starting DT for this year at 6'2 262 and the guys behind him all weigh something similar. I don't understand your argument because we have Gotsis who is listed as only 5 lbs heavier and he seems to be a hell of a player. Yea, he's taller, but that also makes him thinner compared to Greene. All-American teams are compromised of athletic freaks, guys that could play in the NFL tomorrow. But good college DT's come in a lot of different sizes.

Absolutely agree that DTs come in all different sizes...just like OLs do. Height isn't everything, but to use guys that are exceptions for their positions to make a case is pretty silly. Plus, those guys are taller than the player we're talking about ...Shawn Green. One to two inches may not seem like a lot, but for a person's body to function the right way when carrying weight, it does mean a lot. It's a fact that the bigger your frame is, the more healthy weight you can carry. A player that's 6' carrying 280 lbs has more stress on their system an joints than a guy that's 6'3 280 lbs. That's just a medical fact. Now, you put that kind of stress on a smaller frame meant to carry less weight in an athletic environment where you're playing against larger guys...and well it's not a good thing on anyone's body much less someone who's already undersized.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,994
You misunderstand me, by exception, I mean guys who excel regardless of their perceived physical drawbacks. Excel is the key word. But of course, there's hits and misses with every kind of recruit, even the blue chippers. We're not going to make hay chasing the same dogs as the factories, that much I know. Just look at how many of the guys on our current commit list, one that you like, who list academics at or near the top of the reasons why they picked GT.

Listen, I don't think there's anything wrong with having undersized guys, or guys that are "exceptions" on the team. You make a good point that GT can't make a living off prototypical elite players, but at the same time we're also treading a fine line if we take to many "exceptions" on the team. Shaq Mason is a great example of an "exception". He's 6'1 300+ lbs, and isn't the prototypical OG. But he's also a potential All-American and an All-ACC player. But on the other end of the spectrum there's Green. Very good player when healthy, but if he's not healthy and on the sidelines that talent doesn't do us any good. It's not his fault, and I don't want to make it sound like I have anything against him, but size does matter at some positions. There's a pretty good reason why DLs and OLs have gotten bigger over time.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, you can't ignore depth has been a pretty issue for GT...and maybe it's because of those "exceptions" you're talking about.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,674
Listen, I don't think there's anything wrong with having undersized guys, or guys that are "exceptions" on the team. You make a good point that GT can't make a living off prototypical elite players, but at the same time we're also treading a fine line if we take to many "exceptions" on the team. Shaq Mason is a great example of an "exception". He's 6'1 300+ lbs, and isn't the prototypical OG. But he's also a potential All-American and an All-ACC player. But on the other end of the spectrum there's Green. Very good player when healthy, but if he's not healthy and on the sidelines that talent doesn't do us any good. It's not his fault, and I don't want to make it sound like I have anything against him, but size does matter at some positions. There's a pretty good reason why DLs and OLs have gotten bigger over time.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, you can't ignore depth has been a pretty issue for GT...and maybe it's because of those "exceptions" you're talking about.
I still think we're apart on how we define exception. In my definition, there's no difference in performance between an exception and any other high performing player. Besides, Green isn't that far off the norm. Others have pointed out VT's undersized yet very effective DL. What say you about that?

Something else, I also put guys in the "exception" category who have prototypical size and other measureables but who put academics first. Henderson is an example of that.
 
Last edited:

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,994
I still think we're apart on how we define exception. In my definition, there's no difference in performance between an exception and any other high performing player. Besides, Green isn't that far off the norm. Others have pointed out VT's undersized yet very effective DL. What say you about that?

I get exactly what you're saying...but you're assuming every exception pans out and "excels". That clearly is not the reality.

As for VT's DL...awesome for them. When we can get that kind of production with our normal sized DL than I'll be happy. How many of the top D-lines in the nation have VT's makeup? How many teams have VT's Defensive Coordinator? BTW, their DE's are not undersized for a 4-3 defense.
 

thwgjacket

Guest
Messages
969
Absolutely agree that DTs come in all different sizes...just like OLs do. Height isn't everything, but to use guys that are exceptions for their positions to make a case is pretty silly. Plus, those guys are taller than the player we're talking about ...Shawn Green. One to two inches may not seem like a lot, but for a person's body to function the right way when carrying weight, it does mean a lot. It's a fact that the bigger your frame is, the more healthy weight you can carry. A player that's 6' carrying 280 lbs has more stress on their system an joints than a guy that's 6'3 280 lbs. That's just a medical fact. Now, you put that kind of stress on a smaller frame meant to carry less weight in an athletic environment where you're playing against larger guys...and well it's not a good thing on anyone's body much less someone who's already undersized.
Ok now I'm confused. Earlier in the discussion you credited Wilfork for being way heavier than Greene and made it sound like a good thing even though they're roughly the same height. Now you're saying it's not a good thing Greene weighs as much as he does at his height? Here's the thing though, do we know what Greene's injury is? Has it been published?
 
Top