Poll - What is a reasonable amount of time for Collins to be given?

What is a reasonable amount of time for Collins to be given?

  • Get rid of him now, seen enough.

    Votes: 9 2.1%
  • Get rid of him after signing day since I'm not an upfront person.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • After 2020 season (2 years)

    Votes: 30 6.9%
  • After 2021 season (3 years)

    Votes: 141 32.4%
  • After 2022 season (4 years)

    Votes: 146 33.6%
  • After 2023 season (5 years)

    Votes: 75 17.2%
  • End of contract - 2025 - 7 years

    Votes: 17 3.9%
  • As long as Johnson - 11 years

    Votes: 8 1.8%
  • Lifetime - I'm into pain which is why I follow GT football.

    Votes: 9 2.1%

  • Total voters
    435
  • Poll closed .

FlatsLander

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
926
I voted for 3 years, but I've been thinking if 2 out of the first 4 games next year look like this year's games against Temple or VT, then there's going to be a real problem. I think next year we will be much better no only because of recruiting, but because we get so many people back and get the rest of the transfers on the field. Cooper and Lee on the OL, Camp at WR, the UF DE transfer (can't think of his name), Ezzard, plus lots of new OL and DL players. I've always heard that the biggest jump for a football team/player is from the first year to the second year, so I'm hoping that's the case.
 

JorgeJonas

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,147
I've said this several times that Geoff is talking to future recruits. This guy was hired because he is a dang good recruiter which is what everyone complained we didn't have under Johnson. Nobody likes losing but we should've beat Citadel and came very close to beating Pitt and UVA. Team could easily be 5-7 and 6-6 team and nobody would be ready to fire the guy. It's gonna take time!
It’s not an unreasonable question, when the defense is that it will take time, to ask in response, how long, because working without accountability for the on-field results cannot last indefinitely. That is, in fact, the question about which this thread was borne.

If the answer is five years, I might expect some pushback. If the answer is two, I might expect less.
 

GoldZ

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
931
Four years minimum. Most coaches (outside of those at FSU and Arkansas) get at least 3 years to get it together, but Collins gets a "year zero" because of the transition. We don't have anywhere near to the amount of money necessary to fire him before year 4 unless Dewberry personally funds it. Additionally, three years left on a contract is always extension/termination time because of recruiting (though apparently Mike Bobinski didn't understand that), so year 4 is perfect in that regard. If Collins doesn't reach a bowl game by 2023, he'll be gone. Alternatively, if he pulls out an 7+ win season in 2023, you can expect he'll receive a 2-5 year extension depending on number of wins. Either way, I think we'll have a pretty talented roster either for Collins or the next guy to build upon at the end of 2023. Win-win.
If we don't go bowling by 2023!? Wow! It will be patently obvious by mid-October 2021 if the "coaching" part is acceptable, and if we are signing and retaining Elite (CGC & Key's word) recruits. If either is absent, we are simply treading water. If both are absent, we are drowning, so no, 2023 doesn't come into the picture, imo.
 

GoldZ

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
931
I've said this several times that Geoff is talking to future recruits. This guy was hired because he is a dang good recruiter which is what everyone complained we didn't have under Johnson. Nobody likes losing but we should've beat Citadel and came very close to beating Pitt and UVA. Team could easily be 5-7 and 6-6 team and nobody would be ready to fire the guy. It's gonna take time!
Surely you realize we could just as easily (or even more so) be winless?
 

boger2337

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,435
I give him 5 full recruiting cycles. That's 2025. Seems a long ways away. But if we aren't over .500 by 2021 its gonna be a problem
 

GoldZ

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
931
Why can’t many of you understand that during press conferences, TV shows, radio interviews that Collins is not talking to you. His audience is young football players that he wants to get to come to GT. The day will come once the program is established that he can let up on the hype, but that time is not now. I also can’t understand why educated GT alums aren’t willing to give him a chance. It’s sad that smart people let their emotions get in the way of long term plans. So if we fire Collins and hire someone else we’ll now become a school with a reputation for being quick on the trigger and what player will want to play in that environment.
Imo, a minuscule number of supporters wish to fire CGC---straw man? I believe a great many supporters are "waiting to see"--- that's what educated alumni are in fact doing. Look, CGC has said a lot of things that require a show me response from people who have been supporting the program for 20-30-40-50 years, and he wasn't just talking to recruits either.
 

Animal02

Banned
Messages
6,269
Location
Southeastern Michigan
Imo, a minuscule number of supporters wish to fire CGC---straw man? I believe a great many supporters are "waiting to see"--- that's what educated alumni are in fact doing. Look, CGC has said a lot of things that require a show me response from people who have been supporting the program for 20-30-40-50 years, and he wasn't just talking to recruits either.
Yep.....and are same ones saying that how long he stays depends on how the next two seasons play out........as opposed to the apologists who insist it will be 5 years minimum....despite the fact the average college HC lifespan is 3.8 years.

And just because we can speculate on the "what ifs" does not mean we hope for or want the worst case scenarios
 

WrongShadeOfGold

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
360
Yep.....and are same ones saying that how long he stays depends on how the next two seasons play out........as opposed to the apologists who insist it will be 5 years minimum....despite the fact the average college HC lifespan is 3.8 years.

And just because we can speculate on the "what ifs" does not mean we hope for or want the worst case scenarios
So I've seen you rant against CGC in seemingly every post you've made, but I don't recall seeing what your expectations are. What would be acceptable results in terms of wins/losses and recruiting in order for you to not want to see CGC fired? Also, side note, where did you get this average head coaching tenure is 3.8 years stat?
 

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
960
The standard is progress. If we are showing progress after 3 years that's good. Progress could be top 20 recruiting classes (better talent coming in), 6-7 wins or whatever. We simply need to see progress that gives us reason to hope.

I think we've been competitive this year except for the VT game. There are questionable calls and plays but we've been in the games.

Had Collins came in shooting straight this would be bad but all of us would have had one expectation. The elite talk, pro caliber football kinda led me to think we were closer than we really are
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,586
You are absolutely correct... Ga Southern is really the template to show how the choice of coach can make the transition away from the triple option offense either seamless or brutal...

Huh? Fritz was a hire made because he was the head coach with some success that ran a system as close to the triple option as there was. To stay within the coaching tree running exactly what they ran would have required hiring an assistant with no HC experience, which they didn't want in their first year of FBS. The transition was seemless because it wasn't much of a transition at all, which was the point of the hire. When they did try to transition, it was horrible. So yeah, if your goal is to not really transition away from the triple option, then it will be seamless.

Anyways to the topic at hand....

When we had Johnson, we had the best play-caller/OC for the option (at least for a long time that was the case). So when we made a coaching hire the decision was either to more or less double down with what we had and go after Monken/Fritz, hoping that he could roughly keep the offense the level that it was and improve defense, through either coaching or recruiting, or we could abandon the option, as we ran it, and go in a different direction. Fritz's age almost certainly was a non starter as regardless of which direction we went we didn't want to almost be guaranteed to have to find a new coach within 5 years.

When it comes to Monken I'm not sure if he would have come here anyways. He was in a good situation at Army, and he would not be walking into a good situation at GT. In any case, going with Monken would have just been seen similar to extending Johnson. There's no real reason to believe Monken would improve recruiting significantly, and hiring an offensive minded head coach with the intent to improve defense doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, we would have been better this year (how much is for a different discussion), but what would the long term goal be? If we just wanted the best chance to maintain a 6-8 wins a year then Monken was probably the best choice. But I didn't, and still don't, see the argument for him elevating us beyond that.

So we went with a guy who checked the boxes we put priorities on. He has a great defensive pedigree so should be able to help solve that issue. He had a a reputation of being a good recruiter, had ties to the south east, and first hand experience of recruiting. He could have brought in an OC to run the option, but there are a couple of problems. The first is you don't make a HC hire and then dictate what they do. If running something other than the option was a non starter, then you don't hire Collins. The second is that if you bring in an option OC that likely means an entirely different offensive staff which would probably be against the theme of recruiting that this staff was put together on. Third, and this is the one I'm sure some will disagree with, if you stick with the option, you're sticking with the negativity that comes associated with it in regards to recruiting which doesn't make sense with the Collins' hire. In short, you don't hire Collins if you plan on staying with the option.

So once the decision to go with Collins was made, and the current staff with that, this year was more or less inevitable. There have been things that have compounded issues, like injuries and the usage of the first few games to decide on an actual starting QB, but overall this year was going to be ugly no matter what. How ugly it isn't doesn't really make much of a difference. Going 3-9 vs 2-10 doesn't matter in the long run.

The other concern is the week over week improvement. The problem is not all issues are able to be addressed during the year. IMO OL, WR, DL, and LB have issues of just not having the pieces needed to succeed in those areas. There are individual players who have shown flashes of potential in those areas but the overall lack of personnel hides individual growth (for example I think our bad tackle play has hidden our G-C-G improving, not that they are anything to write home about yet). IN other areas such as QB and DBs it's hard to get a read on weekly improvement when so much around them hurts. IMO Graham made great strides against UVA in his footwork and vision but took steps back against VT. However, against VT it felt mostly like he never really had a chance and the one big bad play he had (the pick 6) was a freshman desperately trying to make something happen in a game quickly getting out of hand. That mistake was terrible, but understandable. I don't think he played as bad as he did against Pitt, but it was more a case of Foster having the right idea to take advantage of the many holes we have on offense.

Going forward, 4 years is the absolute minimum barring off the field things. The coaching change was made on the basis of improving recruiting so it only makes sense that you actually give enough time for recruiting to make an impact. Year 4 would be when his first real class would be jrs/redshirt sophs, and the srs/rjrs would be guys completely coached by the new staff which means you have an OL that isn't overly influenced by a different system. The QB that year should be a 3 year starter (whoever wins the job next year I would imagine), and skill positions should be past transitioned (the quickest to transition imo). Defensively much of the same applies. It's enough time to be able to fix the front 7 issues and get both talent, and experience that is needed. Even then, it would probably be year 5 or 6 before a change is made barring just really bad results on the field.

For OC/DC I can't see a change being made before next off season. The issues we're dealing with are so far beyond the OCs ability to address them in one year that it just doesn't make sense unless something usual happens (like Gus getting fired and just wanting to try to stick it to UGA by coming here as OC).
 

smokey_wasp

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,486
It’s not an unreasonable question, when the defense is that it will take time, to ask in response, how long, because working without accountability for the on-field results cannot last indefinitely. That is, in fact, the question about which this thread was borne.

If the answer is five years, I might expect some pushback. If the answer is two, I might expect less.

It's not that hard to figure out, given the length of contract, and how "rebuild" situations are generally handled (Yeah, I know some don't like to hear it, but that's how the AD sees it). Year one is a complete freebie. year 2, you expect to see progress. Year 3 is the start of judging the win-loss record.
 

ScGold

Banned
Messages
532
I don't recall seeing any posts by you last year, but I just may have missed or skipped over them. But I would be willing to bet that you wanted CPJ gone, so why do you emphasize the word "quit" in bold? He didn't QUIT; he retired, as all good coaches do sooner or later.
U see it ur way. I see that he quit. He didnt mention the word retire in his good bye speech. I joined the board after Gollins hot hired, but yes I was tired of watching the same above avg coached team play against better athletes every year and the gap getting bigger. Having Taqun Marshall be ur QB in year 10 is awful recruiting at the most important position on the field. I could carry on but this isn't the time. One more thing becoming Cutcliffe's ***** didnt help moral around the program.
 

Animal02

Banned
Messages
6,269
Location
Southeastern Michigan
So I've seen you rant against CGC in seemingly every post you've made, but I don't recall seeing what your expectations are. What would be acceptable results in terms of wins/losses and recruiting in order for you to not want to see CGC fired? Also, side note, where did you get this average head coaching tenure is 3.8 years stat?
Recruiting numbers are useless. Wins and losses are the only thing that matters. He needs to be at .500 in year three., or just under while being extremely competitive.
My "ranting" is wrt "throwing away seasons" for this "historical" change. That is a self inflicted shot to the foot / head. There was no need for it. This should have been around a .500 year.....not the dumpster fire that it is.

With regard to the 3.8 stat,,,,,,I simply googled it.....that was the number that popped up in the first 2-3 articles.
 

ScGold

Banned
Messages
532
Well, when you call someone who retired, which is allowable and usually encouraged in our free society, a quitter, using ALL CAPS no less, you somewhat confuse the message. Not sure that was necessary to make your point.
He did quit. No confusing that message.
 

kg01

Get-Bak! Coach
Featured Member
Messages
15,349
Location
Atlanta
Poll fail.

The logical answer is simply ... 'enough'.

gyw.gif
 

WrongShadeOfGold

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
360
Recruiting numbers are useless. Wins and losses are the only thing that matters. He needs to be at .500 in year three., or just under while being extremely competitive.
My "ranting" is wrt "throwing away seasons" for this "historical" change. That is a self inflicted shot to the foot / head. There was no need for it. This should have been around a .500 year.....not the dumpster fire that it is.

With regard to the 3.8 stat,,,,,,I simply googled it.....that was the number that popped up in the first 2-3 articles.
That's funny because I have the same expectations of being .500 by year 3. However, I'm almost certainly in the group you refer to as the kool-aid drinkers. I just don't see what good it does to downgrade the coach at every turn. I'm plenty pissed about the Citadel debacle and some of the questionable coaching decisions, however, I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by constantly ranting against CGC and the portion of the fanbase that supports him (as any good fan of a FIRST YEAR head coach should be doing).
 

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
960
What would be interesting would be if we listed our screen names related to how we voted. This would clear up our coach loyalty in post issues. 7 people want him gone now !
 
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