Pass more?

[stech81]

This year seems as if we’ve passed less than any other year that I can remember.

We’re gonna have to pass some this week though. I guarantee, or we will get demolished.

I see it the other way if we have to pass we get demolished.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I think you’ve got correlation and causation backwards here. Passing won’t cause a blowout, but if we’re getting blown out we’ll be passing a lot more. I think it’s the case with the other numbers you’re posting too.

CPJ avoids passing unless he has to. If he’s winning, he doesn’t have to.


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Currently we don’t pass well. So if we were to consciously attempt to do more of what we are bad at....a blowout would be much more likely.

 

[takethepoints]

I just have this to add. We have two plays—the QB sweep and the QB follow—that we run a fair amount and that could legitimately be called "QB keepers". The QB sweep is more with TO and we seldom run the QB follow except in short yardage situations. All the others where the QB can keep the ball are options, either double or triple. In those plays the QB keeps if it looks like the pitch key is committing to the pitch back. Otherwise, he gives off, either by the mesh (the midline) or the pitch back (veer, speed). Everything else is a straight called play involving a hand off. Sometimes the QB will keep on those if the blocking blows up and it makes sense to eat the ball.

TaQuon got caught in the backfield for a loss several times yesterday before the play was complete. That looks like a "QB keeper", but isn't. He also kept the ball for minimal gain a few times because the second level blocks didn't materialize after a correct read. That can also look like a "QB keeper", but that can also pay off big as it has in several games this year and did, to a lesser extent, yesterday.

All that said, we should pass a bit more and I think we will next year. All three QB candidates (I'm betting on Lucas, btw) can throw well (if their high school film and limited playing time are any indication), and I, for one, think one reason for the trend toward bigger OLs at all positions is to better the pass blocking. I'm betting that Coach will be looking for a 300/150 split on O next year with 15 - 20 throws a game—it's what he told Yates and I doubt if he was zooming him. Of course, that'll depend on how well we are running the ball; no need to do that if we start eating up the ground like this year again. We'll see soon enough.

Update: Longest, the Engineer, and anyone else should feel free to correct the above.

 

[jgtengineer]

I just have this to add. We have two plays—the QB sweep and the QB follow—that we run a fair amount and that could legitimately be called "QB keepers". The QB sweep is more with TO and we seldom run the QB follow except in short yardage situations. All the others where the QB can keep the ball are options, either double or triple. In those plays the QB keeps if it looks like the pitch key is committing to the pitch back. Otherwise, he gives off, either by the mesh (the midline) or the pitch back (veer, speed). Everything else is a straight called play involving a hand off. Sometimes the QB will keep on those if the blocking blows up and it makes sense to eat the ball.

TaQuon got caught in the backfield for a loss several times yesterday before the play was complete. That looks like a "QB keeper", but isn't. He also kept the ball for minimal gain a few times because the second level blocks didn't materialize after a correct read. That can also look like a "QB keeper", but that can also pay off big as it has in several games this year and did, to a lesser extent, yesterday.

All that said, we should pass a bit more and I think we will next year. All three QB candidates (I'm betting on Lucas, btw) can throw well (if their high school film and limited playing time are any indication), and I, for one, think one reason for the trend toward bigger OLs at all positions is to better the pass blocking. I'm betting that Coach will be looking for a 300/150 split on O next year with 15 - 20 throws a game—it's what he told Yates and I doubt if he was zooming him. Of course, that'll depend on how well we are running the ball; no need to do that if we start eating up the ground like this year again. We'll see soon enough.

Update: Longest, the Engineer, and anyone else should feel free to correct the above.

nothing to correct you got it one.

 

[takethepoints]

Update, part deux: we had two TFLs yesterday for a total of 10 yards. Only one involved TaQuon (7), the other was Tobias (3). And TaQuon rushed for 114 yards and averaged 7.1 yards a carry. If that's what we get from a "QB keeper", I'll take it any day of the week. If he does that again next Saturday, I'd say we have a decent chance against the Dwags. Do it, TaQuon!

 

[ATL1]

Huge fan of our offense, especially those games that we control TOP with demoralizing drives without throwing a single pass. We don't have to pass to win, nor should we.

However, for this offense to click on all cylinders, especially against good teams that put 9 in the box, we need to make them respect a legitimate passing threat. Right now we don't do that reliably, but it's not a scheme problem.

Just the threat, with only a few attempts per game to make them pay, and the option game can explode. Against anyone.

I think CPJ wanted to do that yesterday but didn't like the results.

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How are you supposed to be good at something when you don’t do it?

 

[ATL1]

The problem is how do you answer the question of how to have a legitimate passing threat in this scheme? It does no good to say that in theory our scheme is fine if we can get x y and z, if in reality we can't get x,y, and z. I think most people will say something along the lines of "we just need the right QB". I have two issues with that. The first is that passing ability isn't just some innate thing. You have to practice it, and you have to have a QB get in rhythm during games. I think so many people look at missed passes and say, oh with just a better throw...., but don't stop to consider that perhaps the reason for the poor throw is that the QB has no rhythm passing. WHy do you think when back up QBs are put in, that they either hand it off, have called plays, or if you know they will play the rest of the way, try to get them easy passes? The second thing is I don't think QB is the biggest problem passing. I think pass blocking and WR separation are. Right now our passing game relies almost entirely on fooling defenses to get WRs open. If the defense isn't fooled, we don't get separation, and we also don't give our WRs time to get separation because of poor pass blocking. Occasionally we've had WRs good enough to make play without separation. The two big names in that regard are Bebe who wasn't recruited for this offense, and Smelter who was his own unique situation. While we've had a couple other good (Hill) and solid (Ricky) neither of those led to defenses really respecting the pass.

I think at the end of the day the scheme may not be the issue from a theoretical point when it comes to establishing a passing threat, but i think practically it is.



So can you be good enough to pass when you need to if you never pass when you don't?

Exactly.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Our offense, for whatever reason, performed poorly against Duke and Pitt. We scored less than 2/3 their points/drive allowed average against Pwr5 competition (DPPD average). However, against every other power5 team we've played, we've outscored their DPPD average significantly.

Before our game against vpi, they had the #21 DPPDvP5, allowing on average 1.81 ppd to pwr5 offenses. We destroyed them because of our "QB Keep" scheme. Before our game against d'oh U, they had the #10 D, DPPDvP5, allowing on average 1.55 ppd. After our game, they had fallen to #14, allowing 1.7 ppd. Before our game, uva was #21, allowing 1.81 ppd vP5 on average. We did better than that, though not by much.

For the season, before yesterday's game, we were averaging 3.05 points/drive versus power5 opponents, putting us at #6 in the country on offensive efficiency.

Now, you can believe that there's something wrong with our offense that led to the performance against Duke and Pitt. Or, you can say that maybe we had a couple bad games, but that the problem's not the scheme.

Loserville is a P5 team (at least, in name) so that game was a pretty big stat boost.

VPI is historically bad and likely will miss a bowl game for the first time since forever. They were beat up and young when we blew them out. Plus, CPJ owns Fuentes.

The points vs d'oh U were greatly influenced by laughable Cane TOs which gave us short field TDs, rather than our below-average 53/241 rushing yards. A solid win nonetheless.

We absolutely didn't blow the doors off UVA. I was there and watched every play. The Cadavers did a pretty good job of stifling us. However we had a lot of great 2nd-effort yardage by the B-backs and some creative runs by the QBs plus The Catch by Stewart to get us a needed, deserved victory. Plus, amazing ST.

I think the Duke and PITT games were more of what we saw yesterday rather than statistical aberrations.

To have another 2014, we need to throw it like we did in 2014 rather than like we did in 2018. The QB Keeper offense of this year is a 7-win offense, at best.

 

[LibertyTurns]

And there is a reason that there are specialty players who just kick field goals and just punt.

Our QBs don’t need to thread a needle. They just need to throw the ball in the same zip code. The OL needs to hold like every other team giving the QB 2.5-3 secs to throw. We should be able to pull that off 3-5 times a game on 6-9 attempts max.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Calm your rage at the W. You really seem inconsolable so I’m sorry about that for you.

So you reference a “STEM” background and observations based off reality. Then you attempt to label our scheme on Oa 40 QB keeper scheme. You literally don’t realize how hypocritically ignorant this shows you to be. And your ignorance is obviously based off personal knowledge of the success of our scheme because you actually cite prior years when it has run at very elite levels.

Thanks for the laugh..it’s good to start a day off with a good laugh even when at another’s expense.

Now that I see your rage comes from a standpoint of ignorance I understand you better. I actually share your desire for a more efficient passing game. I’ve bemoaned it myself a little in a thread or two. But our struggles passing aren’t due to a flaw in the scheme, unless you contend a shotgun pass 80% of downs scheme would improve passing...and I think that’s really what you do think and desire. @ibeattetris has sufficiently responded to that contention so I won’t waste needless time rehashing those points.

Our passing woes this year and last year derive from some deficiencies in our QB personnel. That’s it. And our passing efficiency will fluctuate based on that year to year. Just like every other team.

You really embarrass yourself by attempting to falsely label our scheme a 40+QB keeper scheme. It really shines a bright light on your ignorance of our scheme and football in general. And now that people realize you can’t identify the differences between a 30 play, a speed option, a QB follow, etc.. and obviously just label them all as QB keepers...you are much easier to dismiss. I’d suggest you attempt to learn a little about that to discuss our offense more intelligently....but we all know that endeavor would probably bore you too much to allow your brain to actually absorb the info.

Nothing but personal attacks completely devoid of attack due to your love of CPJ and the scheme rather than the School.
So...to the Ignore list you go!

 

[RamblinWreck92]

I think it better to enlighten and challenge the 92wreck rather than make personal attacks.
So, a simple question.
Are you saying :
We should pass more with our current personnel
We should play QBs that pass better
We should play better receivers who can’t block
We should fire the coach, recruit players that pass and have more excitement in our game

I sense your answer is the last one and I really don’t know how to convince you otherwise.

I'm saying that We Run Best When We Pass Well. 2014 and 2009 are the only 2 seasons of CPJ at GT that had a WR average 3 catches/game. I don't think I need to point out that those are the 2 best seasons we've had.

Not sure why I've had to type this so many times. Why do many Johnsonians get sooooo triggered and seem to worship 7 win seasons and losing to Duke and PITT? It's mind-boggling how average the Johnsonians want us to be.

Solution: Put JG out there and install a shotgun package that he can occasionally line up in, rather than this same mind-numbing 0-WR formation we run out there over and over that lets the D put 9+ guys within 8 yards of the LOS.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Nothing but personal attacks completely devoid of attack due to your love of CPJ and the scheme rather than the School.
So...to the Ignore list you go!

Bye

I know cheese...I know.

As for personal attacks. No more so than 92’s assertion that anyone with a stem degree should see “the obvious” the same as he does.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Actually it’s not blue. Just millions of years of fake news which has been accepted as truth.

3-4 long passes a game is like an enema to opposing defenses. Keeps our offense from being constipated against good defenses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/briank...hs-skies-are-violet-we-just-see-them-as-blue/

meh, we just need to run more 2-yd QB keepers. That'll open things up! /s

 

[MWBATL]

A passing game like we had against Miami could give us a chance. 3 for 4 with some very clutch receptions. They're probably about the same level defensively, but Ugag is much better offensively.

This.

For us, passing is NOT about quantity, it is about quality.

If we could go 3-4 in every game passing for 100 yards, we would be.....awesome and virtually impossible to stop.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

And it’s really anal of CPJ haters to claim those that appreciate the scheme somehow endorse mediocrity. One can only attempt to assert something so stupid if they themselves have a very skewed notion of the scheme.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Try to be a little more realistic in your exaggerations.

OK, 30+. Though TO had 40 vs VPI.

 

[MWBATL]

I'm saying that We Run Best When We Pass Well. 2014 and 2009 are the only 2 seasons of CPJ at GT that had a WR average 3 catches/game. I don't think I need to point out that those are the 2 best seasons we've had.

I agree that we need an effective passing attack. I am NOT certain we need to throw it 20 times to accomplish that. But we definitely need to be effective passing to keep teams from crowding the LOS and making running impossible. Defenses have learned that is the way to play us...to force us to make effective passes. Miami did that and we managed enough passing to nip them. Virginia did it and frankly, our offense did NOT win that game for us...our ST did. So, I agree that 1-8 passing is not a good formula for success for CPJ's offense.

I am open on how to accomplish that. I must admit I am not sure that CPJ is open to it. He experimented with Vad at QB and dropped the idea pretty quickly because he couldn't get BOTH a shotgun QB and an option QB in one....so he chose option QB.

 

[slugboy]

Currently we don’t pass well. So if we were to consciously attempt to do more of what we are bad at....a blowout would be much more likely.

I agree we don’t pass well, and we won’t fix that this week. I’m talking more about system than our current situation. For some reason, we really don’t pass well this year. But I think we should fix that and not ignore it.
If we’re giving up on the pass, then why not line up an extra set of eligible tackles?


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[AE 87]

I agree we don’t pass well, and we won’t fix that this week. I’m talking more about system than our current situation. For some reason, we really don’t pass well this year. But I think we should fix that and not ignore it.
If we’re giving up on the pass, then why not line up an extra set of eligible tackles?


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No such thing as eligible tackles. You could line up WRs in tight like that and use them as edge blockers on zone running plays ... wait a second ...

 

[stech81]

VPI is historically bad and likely will miss a bowl game for the first time since forever. .

You have to be kidding historically bad?

What do you call historically bad ?
here is their past seasons
https://virginiatech.sportswar.com/vt-football/past-football-seasons/

Bad this year yes historically bad , no. Everyone on here knows you HATE CPJ but it does get old after awhile.