Option Football

[stigs02jrt]

You’re 100% correct here (notwithstanding your commentary on the nature of option football )...

If everything else is equal (big hypothetical); recruiting will become most important. That’s what most who are deemphasizing recruiting mean when they say it can’t be the primary focus. We can’t recruit at the same level, much less out recruit, many teams On our schedule. So KNOWING that it is a deficiency for us, why would we willingly make decisions that place additional emphasis on it?

But that's my point about a guy like Deion: he can ABSOLUTELY outrecruit many teams on our schedule. In year ONE.

And since few people want a return to spread option, this might be our only shot at relevancy. Chadwell just won't be able to recruit that well.

 

[stigs02jrt]

Not only has this never happened, but it implies that schemes are not constantly evolving and innovating, which is also untrue.

LOL my sentence literally RIGHT before that talks about other offenses evolving to incorporate new stuff

 

[yeti92]

LOL my sentence literally RIGHT before that talks about other offenses evolving to incorporate new stuff

You said incorporate the same stuff, aka copy other people and make them "a little less special". That is not evolving or innovating new stuff, at all.

 

[awbuzz]

But that's my point about a guy like Deion: he can ABSOLUTELY outrecruit many teams on our schedule. In year ONE.

And since few people want a return to spread option, this might be our only shot at relevancy. Chadwell just won't be able to recruit that well.

How many places has Deion done that? What are the academic thresholds at those schools?

I may be wrong, but I am not sold the Prime Time is a recruiting stud. I don't think he can sell the HBCU portion of his recruiting at GT, Auburn, etc.

 

[JacketOff]

But that's my point about a guy like Deion: he can ABSOLUTELY outrecruit many teams on our schedule. In year ONE.

And since few people want a return to spread option, this might be our only shot at relevancy. Chadwell just won't be able to recruit that well.

How do you know Chadwell won’t be able to recruit that well? Where is any evidence?

Coastal’s recruiting class in 2019 (Chadwell’s first full year) had an average rating of 78.62. In 2022 it was 83.39, and so far in 2023 it’s 83.94. That’s a full 5 point increase.

For reference, Tech’s 2022 class had an average rating of 86.76. A 5 point increase to 91 is the difference between Tech and Clemson, Texas, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Michigan, USC, Oregon, Penn State, and UNC.

YOU GUYS are the only ones saying Chadwell can’t recruit. Based on literally zero evidence. Chadwell has completely built a program from the ground up with his scheme AND recruiting. In case you didn’t realize, Tech finished 55th in recruiting last year, and Coastal was only 14 spots back in 69th [nice].

Some of y’all are so worried about being embarrassed by running a “scheme based” offense you’re scared to actually look at the facts. The ONLY reason some of y’all are scared of Chadwell is because y’all are comparing him to CPJ. He’s not CPJ, they have basically nothing in common other than the fact they are extremely well-renowned offensive minds.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

How do you know Chadwell won’t be able to recruit that well? Where is any evidence?

Coastal’s recruiting class in 2019 (Chadwell’s first full year) had an average rating of 78.62. In 2022 it was 83.39, and so far in 2023 it’s 83.94. That’s a full 5 point increase.

For reference, Tech’s 2022 class had an average rating of 86.76. A 5 point increase to 91 is the difference between Tech and Clemson, Texas, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Michigan, USC, Oregon, Penn State, and UNC.

YOU GUYS are the only ones saying Chadwell can’t recruit. Based on literally zero evidence. Chadwell has completely built a program from the ground up with his scheme AND recruiting. In case you didn’t realize, Tech finished 55th in recruiting last year, and Coastal was only 14 spots back in 69th [nice].

Some of y’all are so worried about being embarrassed by running a “scheme based” offense you’re scared to actually look at the facts. The ONLY reason some of y’all are scared of Chadwell is because y’all are comparing him to CPJ. He’s not CPJ, they have basically nothing in common other than the fact they are extremely well-renowned offensive minds.

He also does not need to recruit any better than Collins to succeed. He just needs to do a better job of evaluating talent and developing it.

Based on what I can see he does that very well.

 

[stigs02jrt]

How do you know Chadwell won’t be able to recruit that well? Where is any evidence?

Coastal’s recruiting class in 2019 (Chadwell’s first full year) had an average rating of 78.62. In 2022 it was 83.39, and so far in 2023 it’s 83.94. That’s a full 5 point increase.

For reference, Tech’s 2022 class had an average rating of 86.76. A 5 point increase to 91 is the difference between Tech and Clemson, Texas, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Michigan, USC, Oregon, Penn State, and UNC.

YOU GUYS are the only ones saying Chadwell can’t recruit. Based on literally zero evidence. Chadwell has completely built a program from the ground up with his scheme AND recruiting. In case you didn’t realize, Tech finished 55th in recruiting last year, and Coastal was only 14 spots back in 69th [nice].

Some of y’all are so worried about being embarrassed by running a “scheme based” offense you’re scared to actually look at the facts. The ONLY reason some of y’all are scared of Chadwell is because y’all are comparing him to CPJ. He’s not CPJ, they have basically nothing in common other than the fact they are extremely well-renowned offensive minds.

He's not even the best recruiter in the Sun Belt according to the rankings. Do you really think 4 and 5 stars would choose him over Deion?

 

[JacketOff]

He's not even the best recruiter in the Sun Belt according to the rankings. Do you really think 4 and 5 stars would choose him over Deion?

What a silly reply. He doesn’t need to be the best recruiter in the Sun Belt to have the best team in the Sun Belt 3 years running. He also doesn’t have as much to sell as about half of the rest of the Sun Belt (sound familiar)? If Chadwell came here he wouldn’t need to be the best recruiter in the ACC. Just stay in the 4-7 range in the conference and with his coaching abilities it would keep us heavily in the mix.

Do you really think Deion being here would get us to out-recruit Clemson, Miami, FSU, UGA, etc? Doubt it.

 

[stigs02jrt]

You said incorporate the same stuff, aka copy other people and make them "a little less special". That is not evolving or innovating new stuff, at all.

evolving their own offense. And hate to break it to you, nobody is really innovating in CFB, what we see today has been done for decades, things ebb/flow.

But if you think we don't need recruiting to beat clemson and georgia, then cool.

 

[stigs02jrt]

What a silly reply. He doesn’t need to be the best recruiter in the Sun Belt to have the best team in the Sun Belt 3 years running. He also doesn’t have as much to sell as about half of the rest of the Sun Belt (sound familiar)? If Chadwell came here he wouldn’t need to be the best recruiter in the ACC. Just stay in the 4-7 range in the conference and with his coaching abilities it would keep us heavily in the mix.

Do you really think Deion being here would get us to out-recruit Clemson, Miami, FSU, UGA, etc? Doubt it.

The guy asked if there is any evidence that Chadwell won't recruit well. I gave him the evidence. Try following the convo.

I'm just hoping for top 25 classes so we can get top 25 finishes. But hey, if you think he's a good enough coach to outperform our recruiting ranking by 20 places, I like your optimism for a Sun Belt guy with no P5 experience. The world needs people like you.

 

[CEB]

He's not even the best recruiter in the Sun Belt according to the rankings. Do you really think 4 and 5 stars would choose him over Deion?

“Deion” is not a plan.
Best case scenario, it’s still a house of cards. Deion recruits beyond our wildest dreams (top 10 classes). We have some success in year 3-4 and people take notice and Deion is gone. Were better off because we get paid when he goes and hopefully we retain a few recruits. BUT if all we had was “Deion,” why wouldn’t we expect recruits to leave with him?
If we want to be successful, we need to build a program based on good football, wise investment and continuity. We certainly need to try to recruit, but Success will be the biggest recruiting tool. I don’t think you build it by recruiting, I think you build it and recruit to it.
If Deion really builds that, I am 100% on board. We need a coach and a leader, first and foremost.

 

[SoMsJacket]

You have been very big on telling everyone that just because CGC failed doesn't mean we should abandon recruiting.
On the flip side, you're adamant that because CPJ didn't recruit, "factually" NO ONE can recruit to an option based offense.
Both are strawman positions - no one is saying we shouldn't try to recruit, and college football is littered with option based offenses doing just fine with recruits.

Here is the crux of the issue for me... Recruiting as a primary focus is a non-starter because:
1. Recruiting independent coaching, development, and program identity / stability is next to worthless
2. Recruiting without development won't take you very far, and probably wont allow you to retain those recruits... especially these days
3. We will not out recruit at least a 1/3, if not 1/2 of our schedule, so if we plan to win more than 7-8, there has to be a lot more to it. Recruiting definitely helps, but recruiting doesn't SOLVE much of anything.
4. Recruiting is wishy washy and highly subjective. Hardly something to base your existence on. How do you measure recruiting? The only thing I have seen is independent parties opining on individual talent with little concern for what you need as a program. Thats probably fine for the factories in the top 10 of rankings annually... it is a fair assessment of where those top 10 teams stack up relative to one another. They stack 4 and 5 star recruits 3 deep, so its just a numbers game on which of them got the most this year. For everyone outside of the top 10-15, its not a very accurate measure as far as I can tell. So honestly, what does it mean to "recruit better?" What is the real benefit of getting a top 20 class vs a top 30 class vs a top 50 class?

Your statement #3 is absolutely wrong. There is zero reason why GT can not recruit at the top of our league. Recruiting high 3* and 4* provides THE base to build a program. Without it, what do you have to build on? Recruiting is 1/3 of the triad to success.
#4, The recruiting rankings are put together to cater to the fans, nothing more. Good college recruiters depend on their network of coaches/contacts to find and evaluate talent. I can go to any high school game a pick out the top 4* and 5*recruits. It's not hard. The hard part is identifying the players 3* players that have the size and potential to develop far beyond their rating. Throw in injuries, family issues, desire, attitude, work ethic, etc., that plays a significant role in whether the recruits ever reach their potential. That's why rankings are sometimes skewed and teams with lower recruiting rankings have good seasons. Relative to rankings, a top 25 class is better than a top 50 class.
I won't bother with #1.

 

[CEB]

evolving their own offense. And hate to break it to you, nobody is really innovating in CFB, what we see today has been done for decades, things ebb/flow.

But if you think we don't need recruiting to beat clemson and georgia, then cool.

No one says we don’t need to recruit.

A lot of people say recruiting alone solves very little, if anything.

Let’s be very real for a moment - we need to do EVERYTHING better if we plan to beat Clemson and UGA. That’s the reason people get sideways when the only proposed solution is “RECRUIT!”

 

[stigs02jrt]

“Deion” is not a plan.
Best case scenario, it’s still a house of cards. Deion recruits beyond our wildest dreams (top 10 classes). We have some success in year 3-4 and people take notice and Deion is gone. Were better off because we get paid when he goes and hopefully we retain a few recruits. BUT if all we had was “Deion,” why wouldn’t we expect recruits to leave with him?
If we want to be successful, we need to build a program based on good football, wise investment and continuity. We certainly need to try to recruit, but Success will be the biggest recruiting tool. I don’t think you build it by recruiting, I think you build it and recruit to it.
If Deion really builds that, I am 100% on board. We need a coach and a leader, first and foremost.

OK, you can try to build a program based on continuity, but know that we're talking YEARS, and even then, we might just end up with mediocrity after 5 years of "continuity". Do we have patience? Will we ever have the "success" that becomes our "biggest recruiting tool?" If so, hell Brent Key might be the continuity guy rather than gambling on an unknown like Chadwell.

Deion will fill seats and bring 4 stars in year 1. Success is not his biggest recruiting tool. It's his name. Will he leave after 4 years? Maybe, but that would mean he did well and tech might be a more desirable coaching destination for the next hire.

Yes, we need to do everything better to beat UGA, but the talent deficit is so painfully obvious every time we play them. Size, speed, there's no comparison.

 

[CEB]

Your statement #3 is absolutely wrong. There is zero reason why GT can not recruit at the top of our league. Recruiting high 3* and 4* provides THE base to build a program. Without it, what do you have to build on? Recruiting is 1/3 of the triad to success.
#4, The recruiting rankings are put together to cater to the fans, nothing more. Good college recruiters depend on their network of coaches/contacts to find and evaluate talent. I can go to any high school game a pick out the top 4* and 5*recruits. It's not hard. The hard part is identifying the players 3* players that have the size and potential to develop far beyond their rating. Throw in injuries, family issues, desire, attitude, work ethic, etc., that plays a significant role in whether the recruits ever reach their potential. That's why rankings are sometimes skewed and teams with lower recruiting rankings have good seasons. Relative to rankings, a top 25 class is better than a top 50 class.
I won't bother with #1.

You’re right about #4... it’s highly subjective and largely worthless because each program should evaluate their needs; not rely on a third party publication for fans. That’s kind of my point. Where we stand in terms of recruiting is far less important than our development program.
As for my # 3,I can’t dispute your assertion that we are “capable,” we just haven’t done it, ever. I said our schedule, not our league, but even still, we are not going to consistently out recruit Clem, FSU, Miami, and UNC. And if we do, What does that get us? Absent improvement in a lot of other areas, not much.
I don’t think we really disagree, for what it’s worth. Recruiting has to be a part of the solution... I just don’t believe the assertion of many here who believe it’s the primary part.

 

[CEB]

OK, you can try to build a program based on continuity, but know that we're talking YEARS, and even then, we might just end up with mediocrity after 5 years of "continuity". Do we have patience? Will we ever have the "success" that becomes our "biggest recruiting tool?" If so, hell Brent Key might be the continuity guy rather than gambling on an unknown like Chadwell.

Deion will fill seats and bring 4 stars in year 1. Success is not his biggest recruiting tool. It's his name. Will he leave after 4 years? Maybe, but that would mean he did well and tech might be a more desirable coaching destination for the next hire.

Yes, we need to do everything better to beat UGA, but the talent deficit is so painfully obvious every time we play them. Size, speed, there's no comparison.

You forgot the good football and wise investment part and went straight to not having time to build something lasting.

Personally, I don’t think we have the time or the money NOT to do it right.
Building on the whims of 19-21 year olds who may give us a season or two at best seems a bit shortsighted to me but hey, more power to ya. I don’t contribute enough to prove you’re wrong, but I still believe you’re wrong.

 

[stigs02jrt]

You forgot the good football and wise investment part and went straight to not having time to build something lasting.

Personally, I don’t think we have the time or the money NOT to do it right.
Building on the whims of 19-21 year olds who may give us a season or two at best seems a bit shortsighted to me but hey, more power to ya. I don’t contribute enough to prove you’re wrong, but I still believe you’re wrong.

well Deion might be a pipe dream anyway...

 

[cpf2001]

evolving their own offense. And hate to break it to you, nobody is really innovating in CFB, what we see today has been done for decades, things ebb/flow.

But if you think we don't need recruiting to beat clemson and georgia, then cool.

You don’t need a plan nobody has seen before. You need one that fits well against what everyone else is going. A good coach will adapt to that (Saban is a good example). But let’s be real - we’re not likely to hire a coach who’s going to be here for ten, twenty years. So one who’s doing something that works in today’s environment is a good enough start to crawl out of the pit.

So much talk here just about offense, too. Go back to the Gailey years - which unit was doing more interesting things to punch above their weight? That was scheme giving us an advantage on the defensive end. That particular one probably wouldn’t work as well these days, but coaching and strategy matter, period.

Let’s say Collins had been able to pull top-10 talent. What, from his team’s performance vs their recruiting rankings, would make anyone think that would’ve translated to top-10 finishes without vastly improved scheme and game day coaching too?

EDIT: I would obviously want a coach that can recruit at least as well as Collins (not that I think that was a terribly high bar in practice vs in hype), but I also want them to bring more to the table than that.

 

[lv20gt]

Why do people act like the head coach does everything? We could hire Sanders and then bring in Newland Isaac as his OC. There, we've merged the recruiting potential of Deon with the offensive system of Chadwell. No matter who we bring in as HC we will almost certainly have an OC and DC that will largely influence what system we run, and not every coach is like Johnson in being tied to one particular system. I would guess we could do that with O'Brien or Dell McGee also. Hell, it almost has to work that way on at least one side of the ball as very few, if any, HCs are going to be that involved in both the offensive and defensive play calling as their experience is usually only in one or the other.

IMO it's a lot harder to argue for taking a weak recruiting HC and covering that through assistants. The HC is the primary salesman and sets the tone recruiting wise regardless of assistants. The HC has to recruit. The HC does not have to be the mastermind of the offensive system or defensive system.

 

[MidtownJacket]

Interesting take on that @lv20gt. I would suggest that the recruiting aspects seem to be moving further out of control from the coaching staffs though. NIL Funding and Recruiting Inducements are now being done in the open. I don't see how a non-factory school, that is intent on being a SCHOOL first, will ever compete regularly for the kind of talent that you need to out athlete the top 15-20 teams in any given year WITHOUT huge money backing the recruiting aspect.

If you can't do that than Conference Championships are out of the question. Which leads me to look at what you CAN control, and that brings me back to scheme based systems. That doesn't argue for or against the HC being the one responsible, but I do think the path forward for GT is through an identity based scheme on Offense.