Offensive Evolution, yea or nay?

Enuratique

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As others have hinted at, it all comes down to playcalling to suit the personnel he has available. I can't recall much midline last year (at least with JT in). I've been reading a great detailed flexbone blog and the author makes the point that the midline is the single most important play to the flexbone offense. I'm hoping the rumors of JT's weight gain might mean more midline this year.
 

forensicbuzz

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I think probably a little bit, but I actually think that QB and OL are the more experience-centric positions in this offense. Like yes, A-back requires you to read blocks on the fly, and that's hard, but I think if you HAD to have a young position group, the RB's and WR's are probably the ones easiest to deal with.
I think this hits it. Based on what I've read/heard from CPJ in various interviews (I don't have any specific interview or article to reference), most of the blocking assignment modification comes with the O-Line. There's some blocking changes that affect the strong-side AB (side the play is running towards) that can be made, but I don't think these are complicated, and I think we've done that since the beginning.
 

dressedcheeseside

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It just seems to me we ran fewer plays with fewer wrinkles and fewer blocking changes in the early years. I remember some games where we ran the same exact play 3 consecutive times to the same side. I can't recall doing that last season, not once.
 

AE 87

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forensicbuzz nailed it. The offense is the offense, but the OL is capable of tweaking its scheme within a series vs after a sideline break....and that adds complexity. I believe I saw this vs UGA within a series...the BB went from off center to off guard and the GCGT combo changed...normally we wouldn't do this until after a possession or 2 or halftime.

It could have been FSU...but we do it a ton with this unit and JT and the OL ability to run it. We also will tweak the AB WR combo on the S/LB....

The different BBack tracks with different blocking assignments may reflect different plays, from triple to belly. Is it possible that you saw this?

However, the same play can have different line calls. IIuc, the play calls from the sideline include a line call in addition to the play. This has always been the case and is not added complexity. In the past, when CPJ complained about turning guys loose or when we got legitimately called for a chop block, I got the feeling that an OL dude got the line call wrong.

I think we saw more drive blocking this year, even on the back side of the play but suspect that reflected ability of our players and responding to a DL that was laying back to avoid a quick scoop.

I wouldn't consider any of this as added complexity, and certainly not such as would make it harder for rs and true fr skill guys to contribute.
 

Skeptic

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No, offense we ran last season is more complex than '08/'09. Offense we'll run this year will be more complex than last. I've always said wait/have patience, PJ is building a monster. It's here!!
I still watch some of the 8-9 games, and particularly the 3rd quarter of the '08 Georgia game and the difference in speed and versatility is remarkable. Somewhere in that time period I recall Johnson being defensive, in denial even, when somebody said that Navy ran the offense faster, but I thought so at the time. Seeing Thomas run it now vs. any other QB, including him or Lee last year, or him the first half of this year, leaves no question for anybody. It is much faster with a bigger playbook. And Thomas has a unique gift of making his blockers look good even when they miss blocks, as a couple of TD runs against MSU or that called back TD run against VT showed.
 

Skeptic

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It just seems to me we ran fewer plays with fewer wrinkles and fewer blocking changes in the early years. I remember some games where we ran the same exact play 3 consecutive times to the same side. I can't recall doing that last season, not once.
We might have done it against MSU, but in that instance, why not? But is that an example of a thin playbook because of the skill positions, or because that is what the defense is offering? I still would love to see some explanation from MSU about why the Bback dive was unchallenged.
 

AE 87

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We might have done it against MSU, but in that instance, why not? But is that an example of a thin playbook because of the skill positions, or because that is what the defense is offering? I still would love to see some explanation from MSU about why the Bback dive was unchallenged.

I think the play you have in mind was not the dive portion of the triple but a trap. The qb opened up one way but then the guard on the side he faced pulled and hit the tackle on the other side opening a hole for the bback to cut back through (sometimes the pulling guard's block wasn't necc bec miss st had already taken themselves out of the play).

The first time play caller for msu d was just out of his depth. Compare Kelly at FSU. We ran that trap successfully in the first half, but he made adjustments in the second.
 

MidtownJacket

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I think I agree with most of what people have been saying. To me the playbook probably has not grown into a more complex set of plays, but the adjustments CPJ is comfortable making now allow for more permutations of our base sets. For example, we may run the tripe O three times in a row (and pick the same option all three times), but he is adjusting the blocking patterns and timing of the play in ways maybe not immediately apparent to myself (and other fans). In my mind that causes an immensely larger set of complexity for the defense (but minmizes the change needed on the Offense - for example the OLine may widen their split, but everyone else does this normal job).

The beauty, IMHO, of this offense is the permutations CPJ can make given his experience and intimate knowledge of the base packages. That is why he doesn't need play sheets or oregamed down and distance packages.. He literally shifts the plan in-flight as he sees what the D has been practicing all game. I liken it to soccer when a team comes out in a 4-4-2 and then switches throughout the game as the coaches notice weaknesses to a 3-5-2. The player who adjusted may need to come in with a different midset but the rest of the team plays in their role, and the opposite side now has mismatch issues. (But maybe I just have world cup on the mind - ps Hope Solo was boss this week - sorry mods I know that's not footbal :) )
 

Skeptic

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I think I agree with most of what people have been saying. To me the playbook probably has not grown into a more complex set of plays, but the adjustments CPJ is comfortable making now allow for more permutations of our base sets. For example, we may run the tripe O three times in a row (and pick the same option all three times), but he is adjusting the blocking patterns and timing of the play in ways maybe not immediately apparent to myself (and other fans). In my mind that causes an immensely larger set of complexity for the defense (but minmizes the change needed on the Offense - for example the OLine may widen their split, but everyone else does this normal job).

The beauty, IMHO, of this offense is the permutations CPJ can make given his experience and intimate knowledge of the base packages. That is why he doesn't need play sheets or oregamed down and distance packages.. He literally shifts the plan in-flight as he sees what the D has been practicing all game. I liken it to soccer when a team comes out in a 4-4-2 and then switches throughout the game as the coaches notice weaknesses to a 3-5-2. The player who adjusted may need to come in with a different midset but the rest of the team plays in their role, and the opposite side now has mismatch issues. (But maybe I just have world cup on the mind - ps Hope Solo was boss this week - sorry mods I know that's not footbal :) )
One of the reasons Johnson doesn't need a cheat sheet is that folks who say he runs only 6-8 plays a game are not all wrong. Flipping all those blocking schemes on the fly I think qualifies as a different play, but I wouldn't argue the point. Knowing what plays he is going to run is one thing. Knowing when is another. He seems to be running more and more with Thomas, and it will be intriguing to watch what he might do with an almost new full crop of Abacks. The experience of the '14 crew cannot be overestimated. As for Hope Solo -- geez, what a great name for an athlete -- she was boss some time before that, and it got her in trouble. Her husband might have been an NFL guy at some point but Ms. Solo is the alpha of that couple. And it actually is football.
 

Skeptic

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I think the play you have in mind was not the dive portion of the triple but a trap. The qb opened up one way but then the guard on the side he faced pulled and hit the tackle on the other side opening a hole for the bback to cut back through (sometimes the pulling guard's block wasn't necc bec miss st had already taken themselves out of the play).

The first time play caller for msu d was just out of his depth. Compare Kelly at FSU. We ran that trap successfully in the first half, but he made adjustments in the second.
I need to go back and look at that with a different eye. Thanks. Don't remember where the DC went before the OB, but unless it was a head coaching job Mullen should have told him no. As a result MSU got embarrassed on national TV. (And Mullen sure wasn't much help in the second half.)
 

33jacket

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The different BBack tracks with different blocking assignments may reflect different plays, from triple to belly. Is it possible that you saw this?

However, the same play can have different line calls. IIuc, the play calls from the sideline include a line call in addition to the play. This has always been the case and is not added complexity. In the past, when CPJ complained about turning guys loose or when we got legitimately called for a chop block, I got the feeling that an OL dude got the line call wrong.

I think we saw more drive blocking this year, even on the back side of the play but suspect that reflected ability of our players and responding to a DL that was laying back to avoid a quick scoop.

I wouldn't consider any of this as added complexity, and certainly not such as would make it harder for rs and true fr skill guys to contribute.

Yes of course variations of the bb dive and gap can be different play calls. But watch the gcg combo assignments switch on the same running play. U have to go back and watch alot to see it. Paul varied it within the series vs miami too i think. I am playing off my memory here, but i think i or someone did a film breakdown of it
 
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I need to go back and look at that with a different eye. Thanks. Don't remember where the DC went before the OB, but unless it was a head coaching job Mullen should have told him no. As a result MSU got embarrassed on national TV. (And Mullen sure wasn't much help in the second half.)
Lateral move to Florida as DC; I think Mississippi State had started to believe their own SEC hype. They could win just by showing up. I've seen a lot of Tech games, a lot of Tech Bowl games, and that was one of the most complete performances ever by the Yellow Jackets.
 

AE 87

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Yes of course variations of the bb dive and gap can be different play calls. But watch the gcg combo assignments switch on the same running play. U have to go back and watch alot to see it. Paul varied it within the series vs miami too i think. I am playing off my memory here, but i think i or someone did a film breakdown of it

Cool. I guess that I don't see it as a new complexity when it happens based on my understanding of how cpj has been making play calls. I could be wrong on that.
 

Skeptic

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Lateral move to Florida as DC
Have to say in terms of geography -- although it is Florida -- it was a sound move. Who in the world could enjoy Starkville, Mississippi? But why the guy would want to go in a lateral position, or would be turned loose by Mullen before the Orange Bowl, loses me. But maybe he saw the handwriting or something.
 

Skeptic

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As others have hinted at, it all comes down to playcalling to suit the personnel he has available. I can't recall much midline last year (at least with JT in). I've been reading a great detailed flexbone blog and the author makes the point that the midline is the single most important play to the flexbone offense. I'm hoping the rumors of JT's weight gain might mean more midline this year.
I think at least one of the scoring plays against MSU was the midline. I don't know enough about it to challenge, but I guess I do: exactly why is the midline the "single most important" play? If there is such a thing, is it not more likely it is the Bback mesh on the option? I'd be curious as to the rationale.
 

dressedcheeseside

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I think at least one of the scoring plays against MSU was the midline. I don't know enough about it to challenge, but I guess I do: exactly why is the midline the "single most important" play? If there is such a thing, is it not more likely it is the Bback mesh on the option? I'd be curious as to the rationale.
Here's a play you might be thinking about:



We scored on this midline as well. Interestingly, JT takes the wrong track but more than makes up for it with his amazing quickness and juke move.

 

Skeptic

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Here's a play you might be thinking about:



We scored on this midline as well. Interestingly, JT takes the wrong track but more than makes up for it with his amazing quickness and juke move.


That's it. Is that not a thing a beauty? And some people want more passing. Though I did not hear that particular beef this season. Thanks.
 

Skeptic

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I absolutely believe this is true.

I have observed: In games that we run mid-line we win.

/
I don't necessarily say it's not true, though I do doubt it, but I don't have the x and o skill to demonstrate it one way or the other. Rather, why does one believe that to be true? It does seem to me that if the midline was the most important play, we would see it more than 3-4 times, and if the reason is to keep the ball in Thomas's hands, there are a lot of ways to get that done. And to say we win with it implies we never run it when we lose but ignores what I thought is the underlying principle of all option football: outnumber the suckers some place and go to that place. (A retired Marine general was explained amphibious operations to me in more brutal terms: "The goal is to stand up more men on the beach than they can kill." Harsh but really pretty accurate.)
 

AE 87

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I think at least one of the scoring plays against MSU was the midline. I don't know enough about it to challenge, but I guess I do: exactly why is the midline the "single most important" play? If there is such a thing, is it not more likely it is the Bback mesh on the option? I'd be curious as to the rationale.

Maybe @Enuratique can post a link to the blog to which he refers. However, I'll try and give a shot at answer.

First, I'm going to make an assumption: the inside veer (our standard triple option) is still the primary or base play for the offense running from the flexbone.

So, I'm going to interpret "single most important play" as being in addition to the inside veer. I suspect that the rationale behind this assertion goes something like this: teams defending the base offense will often focus on tackles and backside linebacker crashing down to stop the B-Back dive and flowing the mike and some secondary strong against the QB and Pitch motion. The midline has enough A-Back motion to draw the perimeter pursuit, reads the DT and uses an Off Guard, and a lead A-Back to block interior linebackers and lingering secondary. So, I suspect that it makes the argument that it's a most important compliment to the inside veer for one of the more effective defensive strategies.
 
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