Offensive Evolution, yea or nay?

[danny daniel]

MY COACHING EXPERIENCE AND FORMULA FOR WINNING IS TO GET THE OPPONENT IN A POSITION SO DESPERATE THAT THEY START DRAWING UP PLAYS DURING THE GAME THAT THEY HAVE NOT PRACTICED (inexperienced coaches will do such). Never recall losing such a game. Having the opponent attempt things in a game not practiced is the "break" you have been waiting/wishing for. Last play/possession of the game is an exception.

I know a coach who had a 70% winning record over 25 years and his game strategy was to shut down the opponent's offense in the first half so they would start innovating with unpracticed plays and give him the game in the second half with the "break" he was expecting. Unpracticed plays most often lead to a turnover and somewhat resemble that Ole Miss Bowl Game play where GT attempted that reverse pass near their goal line (not that it was unpracticed but it was certainly unexecuted).

I have every expectation that CPJ does not call unpracticed plays on game day unless it is the desperate ending to a game about to be lost.

 

[Legal Jacket]

My 0.02

I don't think its about being "more complex." I bet we have more wrinkles installed than in 08/09, since the OL is much more experienced. The "complexity" doesn't seem to come from our ABs/BBs. So I don't think the complexity has changed, just that we are able to do more with more experienced players (or, in other words, we didn't have as much of what CPJ wanted to do in 2008 because everything, even the base plays, were new to everyone). You can't start working on wrinkles until you have the base material ready to go (by definition, wrinkles are added changes in the base material).

I don't think it's any more complex to learn now, but the added benefits you see are with guys who have been in the system for 3-5 years. Nothing is going to be easy for a 1st year player to pick up.

 

[Boomergump]

So, to be clear then, you are saying that it will be harder for RS and tr Fr to contribute this year because CPJ is calling OL schemes which they haven't practiced for 7 weeks?

I feel like I'm in Bizzaro world. CPJ has been our coach for 7 years and has articulated his philosophy several times: find out what the kids can do and then call plays to give them the best chance at winning.

I think I agree with most of @Boomergump 's post, but he agreed with the notion that CPJ is calling unpracticed line plays, so I don't know.

Anyway, I'm clearly nuts cause yall are making sense to each other.

AE 87, when you say "unpracticed line plays" do you mean not practiced that week? or never practiced before? In my mind, the latter would never be the case. I am sorry if I mislead with my post.

 

[33jacket]

We apparently disagree only on whether he's calling plays which haven't been practiced in weeks. I find that an odd assumption and question how a fan in the stands could tell.

because paul himself has said so....paul has stated he does this when he has to throw out the prep work...its common for our Offense....paul has also repetitively referred to the playbook being open or limited based on the past and players remembering.

Also cheese's post was about the offense looking more complex last year. Thats because it was, due to the more variations of the playbook we threw at the offense. You are trying to determine if pauls playbook itself all of a sudden became more complex. I am responding to what is being called and on field that is more complex, by paul opening his playbook for quicker in game adjustments

 

[dressedcheeseside]

So, to be clear then, you are saying that it will be harder for RS and tr Fr to contribute this year because CPJ is calling OL schemes which they haven't practiced for 7 weeks?

I could be wrong, but I don't think all the wrinkles are limited to OL play.

 

[33jacket]

Well said. Having watched a good bit of replay etc, I would say this is very much true. My reply to the intial question raised would be like this: CPJ forms a very detailed offensive game plan which has a certain amount of stuff in it that he hasn't run for a while. He does this in order to be difficult for opposing DCs to prepare for. In practice that week, (my guess is that) CPJ will spend about half the time repping our bread and butter plays and about half on the new stuff, which may include new formations, new blocking assignments, or even new plays. During that "new play" time CPJ will not only practice the new plays but also some counters to the new plays which he will use only if the opposing DC does some good "in-game" adjustments. This process repeats each week and the wrinkles used the prior week go back on the shelf and a new set is devised. Naturally, if you repeat this process enough times, those wrinkle plays are easier to implement when they come back off the shelf rather than being installed the first time. This is where experience and intelligence of the players comes in handy. After even the greater passing of time, with highly experienced players, these plays can be called during game action with very little prep time, possibly just a reminder between series on the sideline.

So, in a very long winded kind of way, I would say our offense HAS become more complex with the passing of time. I would say, that if you counted the total number of unique offensive plays run in 2014, it would be greater than the number run in any prior year. I haven't actually counted, but I would be stunned if it wasn't the case.

EXACTLY.

 

[33jacket]

So, to be clear then, you are saying that it will be harder for RS and tr Fr to contribute this year because CPJ is calling OL schemes which they haven't practiced for 7 weeks?
.

I missed this. Yes. There may be AB WR block combos that Paul doesn't feel comfortable using so he may ditch them for a different set. For sure....In fact history darn near proves it. The best AB on our team for the last 4 years has been....a Sr or RS Jr...there is a reason for that. Its also why the young AB don't make the splash we would like them too...think of young snoddy. Or Godhigh. Or whoever. It takes time there. There is a ton to learn, execute and mature at doing, including blocking reads "on the fly". Many of the AB blocking reads are on the fly with the OL. I mean how many times we here paul say, godhigh needs to get the ball more but he is such a good blocker etc....because of these reasons...or last year it was guys like Perkins

So absolutely. Its why losing Andrews hurts a bit. But snoddy has been here a while. so has that walkon dude (ike?). So we have two...and that RS year helps a bunch. True freshman alot harder...but they can be used in simpler quick decision plays for sure (tosses, simple options).

Same goes for WR....its why perimeter blocking struggled for a while...we were young there either in age or playing time...then last year BAM...it was solid as hell.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I missed this. Yes. There may be AB WR block combos that Paul doesn't feel comfortable using so he may ditch them for a different set. For sure....In fact history darn near proves it. The best AB on our team for the last 4 years has been....a Sr or RS Jr...there is a reason for that. Its also why the young AB don't make the splash we would like them too...think of young snoddy. Or Godhigh. Or whoever. It takes time there. There is a ton to learn, execute and mature at doing, including blocking reads "on the fly". Many of the AB blocking reads are on the fly with the OL. I mean how many times we here paul say, godhigh needs to get the ball more but he is such a good blocker etc....because of these reasons...

So absolutely. Its why losing Andrews hurts a bit. But snoddy has been here a while. so has that walkon dude (ike?). So we have two...and that RS year helps a bunch. True freshman alot harder...but they can be used in simpler quick decision plays for sure (tosses, simple options).

Same goes for WR....its why perimeter blocking struggled for a while...we were young there either in age or playing time...then last year BAM...it was solid as hell.

You just hit another one out of the park!!!

 

[Skeptic]

I don't see the offense as a whole undergoing a radical change or evolving or becoming more complex over time, except for the organic growth that all schemes undergo in response to general changes in college football/coaches adding to their knowledge base/etc. Johnson has always put in plays to suit certain players (BB draws with Dywer (he also tried a lot of screens that never worked), pistol with Tevin, trap options with Dwyer, fades to Waller, etc).

LAST year, BY THE END OF THE SEASON, PJ ran a larger variety of plays and blocked them a larger variety of ways.

The bottom line is he did this because the players he had could execute without the vanilla base suffering. The team had the right attitude, focus, want-to, coachability, athleticism, experience, depth/competition etc. A better team can do more.

Every year will be different. Last year we had a new QB, many new faces on the OL, and experienced skill guys all over the place. The new QB and the new OL we had could--by the end of the year--handle new plays and tweaks with aplomb.

2015 is the opposite: we have all new skill guys, but are experienced at QB and OL. If the new skill guys can get 'er done we'll see similar complexity by the end of the year. If they can't Johnson will focus on being able to do the basics well first.

Option teams have higher winning percentages in the second half of seasons for a reason. They typically have mastered their base stuff and are able to add in a lot of curve balls.

In the bigger picutre we did do some stuff with pacing last year that likely will stick around given the changes in the game, and we practiced HUNH but didn't use it due to defensive depth. Maybe this year?

While it was not no huddle, or maybe even hurry up by that definition, but I thought we broke from huddle to the LOS much quicker than in past years. Maybe they were keeping up with Thomas, who always seemed to me to be in a hurry to get at those guys.

 

[AE 87]

AE 87, when you say "unpracticed line plays" do you mean not practiced that week? or never practiced before? In my mind, the latter would never be the case. I am sorry if I mislead with my post.

@33jacket referred to line calls not among the 50 prepped for the first 7 weeks or so. That's what I meant by unpracticed. I don't think that happens. Otherwise, I agree with how you describe Paul's approach. I'd put it this way:

We have a base offense built off the inside veer triple option. We scout the opponents and assess how we think they'll defend us based on past encounters, personnel, what others have done successfully etc.

As you said, we also self-scout to assess our own tendencies. In my opinion (guess), we're doing two things in this regard, (1) changing up a complement package/change of pace plays and (2) changing up our constraint plays.

By complement package/change of pace, I mean things like belly series or lead option or speed option etc. By constraint plays, I mean things like midline option or counter option or A-Back Iso etc.

 

[AE 87]

because paul himself has said so....paul has stated he does this when he has to throw out the prep work...its common for our Offense....paul has also repetitively referred to the playbook being open or limited based on the past and players remembering.

Also cheese's post was about the offense looking more complex last year. Thats because it was, due to the more variations of the playbook we threw at the offense. You are trying to determine if pauls playbook itself all of a sudden became more complex. I am responding to what is being called and on field that is more complex, by paul opening his playbook for quicker in game adjustments

I missed this. Yes. There may be AB WR block combos that Paul doesn't feel comfortable using so he may ditch them for a different set. For sure....In fact history darn near proves it. The best AB on our team for the last 4 years has been....a Sr or RS Jr...there is a reason for that. Its also why the young AB don't make the splash we would like them too...think of young snoddy. Or Godhigh. Or whoever. It takes time there. There is a ton to learn, execute and mature at doing, including blocking reads "on the fly". Many of the AB blocking reads are on the fly with the OL. I mean how many times we here paul say, godhigh needs to get the ball more but he is such a good blocker etc....because of these reasons...or last year it was guys like Perkins

So absolutely. Its why losing Andrews hurts a bit. But snoddy has been here a while. so has that walkon dude (ike?). So we have two...and that RS year helps a bunch. True freshman alot harder...but they can be used in simpler quick decision plays for sure (tosses, simple options).

Same goes for WR....its why perimeter blocking struggled for a while...we were young there either in age or playing time...then last year BAM...it was solid as hell.

No worries on my end. I don't interpret your reference to CPJ's comments the same as you, but without seeing what he actually said and in what context, I'll leave it open. I find it very hard to believe that he actually said he asks our line to run plays that they haven't practiced for 7 weeks. However, that's just an opinion on my part, and I'd be wrong if that's what he actually said.

The context in which @dressedcheeseside raised the issue of increased complexity was the defenses coming around to what we had been doing. The implication was that we should be concerned about offensive production because the young guys wouldn't be able to run the new more complex offense as quickly.

My position is that the offense is not more complex in this way. So, I agree with you about CPJ being able to use the new guys and bring them along in the same way he has in the past. As far as the skill guys are concerned, the inside veer, rocket toss, midline, counter option, and basic passing tree are the same now as they were in 2008 and 2009. That's the way I was discussing the issue of complexity.

 

[Wrecking Ball]

Gotta love all the nervous excitement in this year's offseason speculation. I'm not worried in the slightest about the team. I think we will have an overall talent upgrade. WR is a bit scary for me but 2010/2011 saw the ABacks step up when the WR crop was thinner. BBack will be fine even if @Eric himself has to strap up for a game or two. For all the alleged nuance that goes into B-Backing, I think the "want to" is the number one component for that position.

I do not see how a great many in-depth takes on Skov/Allen/etc. can be written absent live game film at their position, so I will refrain from adding to the noise on them except to say they look the part getting off the bus. Allen ran with some authority in the spring game film I saw, and if Skov is more than that, we're ok.

At WR, I have been assured that Summers is possibly the greatest WR to ever play the game of football, and that all of the freshmen will be all-ACC at a minimum this year. In all seriousness though, we have the numbers and on-paper talent for someone to step up here. My bet is that it won't be Summers. For better or worse, the smaller receivers, even the burners, have skillsets that we don't exploit with our passing attack.

A-Back should see Snoddy pick up where he left off and Willis become a solid player. I think Dennis Andrews was a big, but replaceable, loss.

OL is really, really deep. In past years the injuries we took this year would have been debilitating.

Defense has a LOT of returning talent, I just hope we can do more dictation of terms than reaction. Make the bad QBs we will face stand and deliver, etc.

 

[Skeptic]

MY COACHING EXPERIENCE AND FORMULA FOR WINNING IS TO GET THE OPPONENT IN A POSITION SO DESPERATE THAT THEY START DRAWING UP PLAYS DURING THE GAME THAT THEY HAVE NOT PRACTICED (inexperienced coaches will do such). Never recall losing such a game. Having the opponent attempt things in a game not practiced is the "break" you have been waiting/wishing for. Last play/possession of the game is an exception.

I know a coach who had a 70% winning record over 25 years and his game strategy was to shut down the opponent's offense in the first half so they would start innovating with unpracticed plays and give him the game in the second half with the "break" he was expecting. Unpracticed plays most often lead to a turnover and somewhat resemble that Ole Miss Bowl Game play where GT attempted that reverse pass near their goal line (not that it was unpracticed but it was certainly unexecuted).

I have every expectation that CPJ does not call unpracticed plays on game day unless it is the desperate ending to a game about to be lost.

Don't know what all the excitement is about. George Blanda and Bobby Layne were reported to draw them up in the huddle. Layne between shots.

 

[33jacket]

No worries on my end. I don't interpret your reference to CPJ's comments the same as you, but without seeing what he actually said and in what context, I'll leave it open. I find it very hard to believe that he actually said he asks our line to run plays that they haven't practiced for 7 weeks. However, that's just an opinion on my part, and I'd be wrong if that's what he actually said.

The context in which @dressedcheeseside raised the issue of increased complexity was the defenses coming around to what we had been doing. The implication was that we should be concerned about offensive production because the young guys wouldn't be able to run the new more complex offense as quickly.

My position is that the offense is not more complex in this way. So, I agree with you about CPJ being able to use the new guys and bring them along in the same way he has in the past. As far as the skill guys are concerned, the inside veer, rocket toss, midline, counter option, and basic passing tree are the same now as they were in 2008 and 2009. That's the way I was discussing the issue of complexity.

yeah, we can run stuff for a few weeks for sure that we haven't then dust it off in a game a few weeks later. I was using 7 weeks arbitrarily to tell the story. Could it be 4 weeks yes. You can't be so literal here. Just as I was using 100 and 50 arbitrarily to tell the story. Could it be 15 plays and 4 weeks. Yes. Could it be more for sure too. The point is with what Paul does this isn't uncommon at all, and his ability to do it more, and ability to do it more real time in a series or in a game is a function of the capability of who is on the field. And when "who is on the field" is really capable he will do it more IMO (based on his comments and what we see on tape with much more variation to the base set) therefore making his system more complex for the players and the D's...since he is using his full system vs just a portion....

Bottom line to me, when I look at everything on the field last year, we ran alot more of base, but more variations off it, than the prior year. Was it more than a Senior Tevin...not sure...we were just better across the board in skill so we were more prolific. But I don't have the time to go back and compare those films. My hunch tells me we were more than a senior tevin too just due to teams capability and total experience level in the system. We had a mature OL, WR, AB and BB, and a 3 year Qb in the system...who was learning first half and mastering second half...

 

[AE 87]

yeah, we can run stuff for a few weeks for sure that we haven't then dust it off in a game a few weeks later. I was using 7 weeks arbitrarily to tell the story. Could it be 4 weeks yes. You can't be so literal here. Just as I was using 100 and 50 arbitrarily to tell the story. Could it be 15 plays and 4 weeks. Yes. Could it be more for sure too. The point is with what Paul does this isn't uncommon at all, and his ability to do it more, and ability to do it more real time in a series or in a game is a function of the capability of who is on the field. And when "who is on the field" is really capable he will do it more IMO (based on his comments and what we see on tape with much more variation to the base set) therefore making his system more complex for the players and the D's...since he is using his full system vs just a portion....

Bottom line to me, when I look at everything on the field last year, we ran alot more of base, but more variations off it, than the prior year. Was it more than a Senior Tevin...not sure...we were just better across the board in skill so we were more prolific. But I don't have the time to go back and compare those films. My hunch tells me we were more than a senior tevin too just due to teams capability and total experience level in the system. We had a mature OL, WR, AB and BB, and a 3 year Qb in the system...who was learning first half and mastering second half...

Yeah, I think we may have been talking past each other, interpreting each other in keeping with how we understood the question of complexity raised by @dressedcheeseside. Fwiw, I believe that his point is summarized in this post he made in response to @cuttysark saying we should be fine with "next man up," specifically Robbie being able to block after Roddy graduated etc:

I hope you are right. One thing is different now than in Robbie's first year. Our offense is much more complex and it needs to be as defenses have come around to our older, simpler ways. And we're not just replacing an Aback, no, we are replacing all the B's and just about all the A's and wr's, too.

So, I think that you and I might be in agreement that the experience and talent of last year allowed us to do a lot more, but I don't think it was the "much more complex" as I understood the OP's point. I also think the relative complexity of 2014 to 2012 and 2009 is more open.

Also, thanks for the clarification of your earlier post. When you said, if the "D being used," in "week 7," "also isn't great for the 50 we have repped the prior 7 weeks," that CPJ could go into the other 50, I got the impression that you had him calling plays which were largely unpracticed for the whole season. I wasn't worrying about taking the numbers you used literally as much as taking the relationship between them seriously. However many plays prepped for however many weeks, plays not prepped all season were being called. That's what I was responding to. I agree that he can call back to preparation from previous weeks. I just doubted that he'd call plays that hadn't been prepped all season.