Northwestern Univ players can unionize...

Animal02

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Fabulous article that puts the ruling into focus. Student athletes are employees. The right to unionize is only the icing on the cake and a side issue. Since student athletes are employees, they are eligible to health care like other employees. Forming a union will enable them to get better benefits, but not essential:
http://www.sippinonpurple.com/north...ased-a-statement-on-the-nlrb-ruling-and-it-is

And then, the NCAA figures if they tell a lie long enough it will become true:
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...8/college-football-players-union-pay-for-play

If I seem to care about this, it is because a friend of mines kid played on VTs scout team and has trouble walking because of injuries. No health care once he was off the team. Another GT scout team player I know has leg injuries that aren't taken care of either as well as being very concussion prone now and medically warned to avoid blows to the head.

It ain't right. Forget what it means to our entertainment. It ain't right.

So, the players form a "union". Northwestern cannot come to an agreement with "the union" does a 'lockout" and brings in "scab players" on scholarship. The power of unions is being able to control the supply of the labor force. I will guarantee that the supply of "labor" for D1 football far outweighs the ability of any "union" to control it.
 

dressedcheeseside

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Fabulous article that puts the ruling into focus. Student athletes are employees. The right to unionize is only the icing on the cake and a side issue. Since student athletes are employees, they are eligible to health care like other employees. Forming a union will enable them to get better benefits, but not essential:
http://www.sippinonpurple.com/north...ased-a-statement-on-the-nlrb-ruling-and-it-is

And then, the NCAA figures if they tell a lie long enough it will become true:
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...8/college-football-players-union-pay-for-play

If I seem to care about this, it is because a friend of mines kid played on VTs scout team and has trouble walking because of injuries. No health care once he was off the team. Another GT scout team player I know has leg injuries that aren't taken care of either as well as being very concussion prone now and medically warned to avoid blows to the head.

It ain't right. Forget what it means to our entertainment. It ain't right.
I'd say avoiding blows to the head is good advice for everybody. To your last point, what do you propose the colleges do?
 

GTNavyNuke

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I would propose that "reasonable" care be taken to prevent injuries. We already do that with the rules to some extent. But I'd make the flagrant rules a lot tougher. If you get ejected from a game for hitting and hurt a person, you not be allowed to play again until the injured person can return to the field.

I'd also have lifetime care for injuries sustained in the workplace. That means physical therapy and other assistance. The model I'm thinking of is the military where injuries sustained while in the military are taken care of for life. {The Veterans Administration isn't perfect but they do a lot and have many dedicated people who do a lot for many of our injured soldiers.}

The pay side is harder, but colleges could set up a "Performing Art of Football" degree. Get rid of the hypocrisy about an education and focus only on things they care about - interval training protocols, strength training protocols, football kinesiology, nutrition, strategy and tactics, etc. Then pay players according to their recruiting ranking (5 stars get so much, 4 stars less, etc). Each school then has a "salary" cap .... like the NFL ..... of course it will be gamed, just like the NFL.

There are ways college football could be done much better. The problem is that with billions of dollars annually involved, people will tell lies continually to get a bigger piece of the pie. Like the NCAA with the outdated concept of student-athlete for elite D1 football players which is a sham. So we are going to end up with a system that serves those with the most money and political power.
 

forensicbuzz

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I'd also have lifetime care for injuries sustained in the workplace. That means physical therapy and other assistance. The model I'm thinking of is the military where injuries sustained while in the military are taken care of for life. I've got two bum knees from playing football in high school. The school didn't pay for my injuries then. I went to a private high school and had teammates that were on full athletic scholarships, so the scenario is similar to colleges.

The pay side is harder, but colleges could set up a "Performing Art of Football" degree. Get rid of the hypocrisy about an education and focus only on things they care about - interval training protocols, strength training protocols, football kinesiology, nutrition, strategy and tactics, etc. Then pay players according to their recruiting ranking (5 stars get so much, 4 stars less, etc). Each school then has a "salary" cap .... like the NFL ..... of course it will be gamed, just like the NFL. I like this as an option up until you start scaling the pay by recruiting rankings. That's not equitable. We already know coaches can get the rankings changed at their whim, so the rich would get richer and the poor would get poorer, and the middle class would get screwed again.

There are ways college football could be done much better. The problem is that with billions of dollars annually involved, people will tell lies continually to get a bigger piece of the pie. Like the NCAA with the outdated concept of student-athlete for elite D1 football players which is a sham. So we are going to end up with a system that serves those with the most money and political power. Isn't this Life?
 

GTNavyNuke

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Well, two wrongs don't make a right? I expect HS football to be cut back severely given the injuries and risk aversion in our society. Sorry about the knees. I had one that was messed up for about 10 years till I started riding a bike a lot.

Pay for ability is what the free market (not the crony capitalism we have in the US) is all about. Getting a fairly unbiased ranking of HS players ability is pretty much what we have now, with a probable skew to increase rankings when going to a prestigious football program. That incentive would be much less and could make rankings less biased.

But it's life. This is all a moot discussion of hypotheticals. (on my part at least :eek: ).
 

forensicbuzz

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My first comment was only to ask "where does it stop?" I actually like the Performing Arts idea. I mean, I really like that idea. The last part was purely social commentary. There's no such thing as a true fee market, and there'll always be people with money and power controlling things.

Ideally, if it weren't for human nature, socialism [communism] would be the ideal society. However, it doesn't work with human nature.
 

Ibeeballin

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Happen to see this.......
http://ctmirror.org/uconns-napier-on-altheletes-unionizing/
Why on earth would a scholarship player be going to bed hungry? Isn't room and board part of their scholarship?


Because your last meal is after practice at 6:30/ 7pm. After study hall(if you have to go) or tutoring you are back in your room around 10pm. By that time the nearest dining hall is closed. I believe the new North ave is opened later, but you are only allowed 3 swipes/day on your Buzzcard so now you have to pay. Hmm… i wonder where that money is going to come from? Coach? No. Thats a violation. Family/Friends? Violation also and you borrowed money last week and they don't have it now. Borrow your teammates card? Nope. They id you now (at least they did with me) Well i guess Dede have to take me out to eat. Oops, thats a violation too and now I'm subject to suspension and gtswarm call me selfish and an idiot ;)
 

Ibeeballin

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Here is short documentary by Osahon Tongo filmed in 2009.

There has been a lot of debate over unionization of Northwestern and weather it is the right way to go about change. Many people speaking on the subject are not aware of social issues that plague the NCAA and create a systematic oppression of student athletes.
I would like to start off and say that I love my alma mater Go Jackets! I have benefitted greatly by opportunities that I was able to take advantage of because I was in such a great position at an excellent university. With that being said there are universal issues that being an "amateur student-athlete" places you into a grey area so it is hard to replicate current models.
The NCAA operates as a non-profit organization aimed at protecting students and helping students excel in school through
athletics. It was started in 1906 because there were so many injuries and intercollegiate play was unregulated.
At this point in time there is a wealth of money flowing through this system but the players are not supported more with this money.
Here are a couple issues that don't include pay for play that the NCAA has refused to recognize while similar models have.
- long term health care / workman's compensation
- concussion reform
- academic clustering - not everyone wants to study the same major but it fits the schedule
- heavy handed transfer rules (I.e. Wisconsin coach blocking a student from 20+ schools)
- grad school / career support
When someone is committing 44hrs on average to their sport and the organization built to protect them is ignoring any conversation about these issues it is a cancer to our society as a whole.
Watch Full Ride: The Truth Behind College Football. I made it back in 09 and it's rough but it is very relevant now.
- Osahon Tongo

 

Animal02

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Because your last meal is after practice at 6:30/ 7pm. After study hall(if you have to go) or tutoring you are back in your room around 10pm. By that time the nearest dining hall is closed. I believe the new North ave is opened later, but you are only allowed 3 swipes/day on your Buzzcard so now you have to pay. Hmm… i wonder where that money is going to come from? Coach? No. Thats a violation. Family/Friends? Violation also and you borrowed money last week and they don't have it now. Borrow your teammates card? Nope. They id you now (at least they did with me) Well i guess Dede have to take me out to eat. Oops, thats a violation too and now I'm subject to suspension and gtswarm call me selfish and an idiot ;)

Except your scenario doesn't hold water.......

NCAA Manual
16.5 Housing and Meals.
16.5.2 Permissible.
(c) Training Table Meals. An institution may provide only one training table meal per day to a student-athlete
during the academic year on those days when regular institutional dining facilities are open (see Bylaw

(g) Nutritional Supplements. An institution may provide permissible nutritional supplements to a student-athlete for the purpose of providing additional calories and electrolytes. Permissible nutritional supplements do not contain any NCAA banned substances and are identified according to the following classes: carbohydrate/electrolyte drinks, energy bars, carbohydrate boosters and vitamins and minerals. (Adopted: 4/27/00 effective 8/1/00, Revised: 11/1/01 effective 8/1/02, 4/14/09)
(h) Fruit, Nuts and Bagels. An institution may provide fruit, nuts and bagels to a student-athlete at any time. (Adopted: 4/30/09 effective 8/1/09)
 

Animal02

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English, please? Because you can give it doesn't mean it is available.

It has nothing to do with possible violations that you listed. If they are missing dining hall meals because of practice, they can provide a "training table meal" as well as the listed snacks etc 24/7. I find it hard to believe that a school like U Conn or Tech would allow a athlete to "go to bed hungry" when there are so many option available that would be in compliance with the NCAA rules.
 

forensicbuzz

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I am truly ambivalent about this situation (taking care of the players, not unionizing). I had friends on the Tech's football team that didn't have enough money to go to the movies or eat on the weekend, sometimes. They weren't allowed to work when I was at Tech.

However, I disagree with some of Frierson's comments in the video. There were always (late 80's/early 90's) opportunities for summer internships, and I know that has improved over the last 20 years. As a struggling college student, who was paying my own way through school, fully supporting myself, there were many raman noodle nights, but I made it. Sometimes you have to make your own breaks in this world, and at Tech was no different. If you wanted something, (like an internship) you found a way to make it happen. I didn't know Martin or his situation, so I'm not speaking directly to his condition, but to his comment that the Administration does 10% of what they could do to help the student.

I saw that Osahon had 5 guys: Zack Fisher (injured walk-on Sophomore who left the team), Brad Jefferson (Starting Junior with a kid), Orwin Smith (incoming Freshman), and Martin Frierson (RS Senior, oft-injured backup), Steven Sylvester (Sophomore part-time starter). I wonder how others on the team feel: I wonder how older lettermen feel. Firer son seemed dejected. How much of what he said was typical versus specific to him. IBB, if you're who I think you are, you left PT on the field to start your next career, did you find a general lack of support by the school and GTAA like Frierson stated?

We make choices in life based on our circumstances at the time. These guys bust their butts on the field and in the classroom, representing GT is a high-profile situation. Their compensation is a full scholarship, which includes: tuition, R&B, books, academic support, priority class scheduling, etc. Is this just compensation for the efforts they expend? That's a personal call that each and every one of those guys need to evaluate based on their individual situation.

There are those that hang up the cleats and call it a career before the have to. My brother was a scholarship baseball player. After his sophomore year, he gave it up. His shoulder hurt all the time, and it was no longer fun. He ended up getting his BA and MBA through the Air Force.

I said a lot,but may not have had a clear point. Again, I'm extremely ambivalent about how much support is warranted and given to student-athletes.
 

Animal02

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However, I disagree with some of Frierson's comments in the video. There were always (late 80's/early 90's) opportunities for summer internships, and I know that has improved over the last 20 years. As a struggling college student, who was paying my own way through school, fully supporting myself, there were many raman noodle nights, but I made it. Sometimes you have to make your own breaks in this world, and at Tech was no different. If you wanted something, (like an internship) you found a way to make it happen. I didn't know Martin or his situation, so I'm not speaking directly to his condition, but to his comment that the Administration does 10% of what they could do to help the student.
Raman noodles weren't known when I was at Tech.....chili and rice, kraft mac and cheese box were standard when money was tight.

I don't think players should be allowed to unionize.....they certainly are not employees in the traditional sense....and they are only there for a short period of time. It certainly cannot be addressed one school time. That is not to say that the players should not be getting more than what they are.
 

OldJacketFan

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Raman noodles weren't known when I was at Tech.....chili and rice, kraft mac and cheese box were standard when money was tight.

I don't think players should be allowed to unionize.....they certainly are not employees in the traditional sense....and they are only there for a short period of time. It certainly cannot be addressed one school time. That is not to say that the players should not be getting more than what they are.

"they certainly are not employees in the traditional sense." The NLRB disagrees with you. Not saying it's right but when you look at the legal definition of an "employee" the ruling is sound

Definition: An employee is a person hired by another person (an employer) to perform a job. A worker is considered an employee if the employer controls what work will be done and how it will be done. What is important is that the company has the right to control and manage the details of how and when the work is performed.
The employer compensates the employee for his work, either through a specific wage or salary. This relationship between the employee and employer is established by a written or understood contract.

Lots of legal fun times ahead for college football.
 

collegeballfan

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Question.

If student athletics are employees, who are they employees of, the athletic association or the university? What about GT and UGA etc who are part of the University System of Georgia? Who is the employer?

And, as a previous poster noted, are they liable for federal and state income taxes? As a student I would hate to pay the taxes on a scholarship at Northwestern, $45, 527.00 for 2013-14.
 
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