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Boomergump

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Let me expand on why running the triple option successfully is important to the passing game. I guess I will preface the said expansion with a reminder about how we never (seemingly) ran triple last year and how bad it hurt.

When you can run triple and make good reads, you successfully remove two defensive players from the play without committing a blocker. Those two hats have to be made up for and they have to come from somewhere. It just so happens that the two guys who are optioned off usually come from both the DL(1) and LB (1) groups. Sometimes it is LB (2) in the event of a cross charge. When that happens the only real solution is to fill from behind. That means safeties have to be shallow and active. Sometimes grossly so. In fact, there is tremendous pressure on a safety to fill lanes and make reads very quickly. So much so that their ability to cover is greatly compromised. To me that is the beauty. When you have 2 ABs that can release along with 2 WRs, after selling blocks, that is a tall order for who is left on defense.

We HAVE to run triple well to be a good passing team. Bottom line.
 

takethepoints

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Yes, that's it and very well said. I might add that even when we aren't running the trip very well, if the safeties don't come up and commit we will run the opposing D ragged. Example = Syracuse last year. I literally couldn't believe how deep their safeties were off the LOS. When they didn't come up on the first couple of double options Vad ran, I looked over at my son and said that they had obviously decided to let Vad's feet beat them and that this would prove to be a real, real bad decision. 52 points later …
 

Northeast Stinger

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Yeah, but the thing is, with this offense, we are rarely in 3rd and long. I would rather have our offense trying to run to convert on 3rd and 4 than most offenses trying to throw to convert on 3rd and 8. Last year, when we weren't great at running or throwing the ball, we were still pretty great at converting 3rd downs. In fact, Georgia Tech was 4th in the nation on 3rd down % at 51.4% (LINK). Though not all our years under CPJ have been great, we were 2nd in the nation in 3rd down conversion in both 2011 and 2009. If we consistently rank so high in overall 3rd down conversion, who cares if our 3rd and long conversion % is a bit lower than most good passing teams.

Notably, on defense, we were 34th in stopping 3rd down conversions last year. That is the best we have done under CPJ, with many seasons ranking in the 80s. I would say that is a much much bigger issue than the fact that our 3rd down and long numbers on offense may not be great.

(BTW, I would be interested to see the 3rd and long numbers. I bet they are not as bad as you think they are.)
This is an excellent perspective in my opinion.
 

iceeater1969

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By way Pittsburg just lost another db - 2 starter gone (1 recently suspended and 1 just transferring)

Wheel route by fast gt AB after Gt WR goes long w safety= single coverage for qb to read. Almost impossible for double coverage - with any kind of being on same page and quick release, we should get some catches in space. This should lead to big gains, which makes the run more effective.

Real issue is the strength of the big 4's dt and de vs gt guard tackles - does the DL continue to blow up plays where we try to pass. When they are dominant and there 8 in box - timing gets off on the wheel route or the long pass.
Coach is trying to address this with the new coaching help on the ol tackles.

If we get going we could be good by mid year.
 

nodawgs

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We will never be a consistent or good passing team as long as we have the current philosophy on pass protection. Period. When a QB's can't even finish his drop before scrambling, you miss countless opportunities down field. Throw in old school isolation routes and the QB has an uphill battle to be a 50% passer. Not being negative, just stating what I see as a coach.
 

Mack

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We are going to be a better passing team than last year.

Many on this site believe that going back to basics means that we will see very little passing. It is going to be run run and more run. I beg to differ. I believe that running the option better is going to have us passing better because we will be doing it on our terms. Play action will mean something. FWIW I will throw money down (metaphorically speaking, I don't really gamble) that we average at least as many attempts as the historical average under CPJ. Further more, I think we will find that JT does a good job of finding open guys and checking down while buying himself time. What say you?
I think we will be more exciting at the qb slot no doubt.I agree returning to the basics does mean putting rock in the air but to do that we must block somebody and elimiage the "watch out "block.Will agree though PJ is right..he said its not the amount of passes we throw its the number.....we catch..You must have a qb that can do both here and hope JT can take the pounding..If he can then we will be at least as good as last year.
 

Mack

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I'm going to what I've been saying for a while:

Our success passing will be more dependent on our OL, pass protection in this case, than who the QB is. Our offense almost ALWAYS has open guys on any given pass play...it's just whether the QB has 1. Good enough pass pro and 2. Know where to go with their reads. JT is a more than capable passer to the get the ball where he needs to. I think he'll get better with reading defenses and knowing where to go depending our passing concepts. He's a smart dude, and grasping our passing concepts comes with time...as we saw with Tevin.

If you remember the play where JT got blindsided against Miami, there were guys open but JT had to move around the pocket and avoid pass rushers so he couldn't go through his progressions. If we continue to have that kind of pass pro for our QBs (regardless if it's JT or someone else), talking about whether we're going back to basics or expanding out playbook is moot.

The beauty of our offense is it puts so much pressure on perimeter defenders to read the backfield that they have to make the proper read or you have guys running free all over the secondary (see the ACCCG versus FSU for examples of this). I want to see our OL give our QBs time to find those open guys because they will be there the majority of the time.
Old adage is you cant throw from being flat on the ground...............Give him time and correct routes and he should be okay
 

Mack

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I agree with Techster that pass pro is the single largest determinant for efficacy in the passing game.

That said of course Boomergump is correct in that if we are running the triple really well it will open up the play action game considerably. However Justin will either have to have time or buy it with his legs to find open guys.

Reports out of the last scrimmage indicated we were struggling in pass protection and Justin didn't have time to check down. Of course he can use his legs to create. However creating also requires being able to understand when to just throw it away and live to fight another play/another drive. Young QBs with a lot of ability tend to have a learning curve in this regard that requires having some painful experiences.

One thing I think will help is having some experienced guys like Smelter & Waller who can go up and get some balls. This can help build a young QBs confidence. Also fewer drops helps to build confidence/allow a young QB to get momentum/rhythm. I feel like we are more sure-handed at AB & WR than we've been so that will help.

Putting it all together I think we'll have a reasonable passing threat for the offense from the play action game. On obvious passing downs we may struggle some. However I also think PJ will make good use of the QB draw which will make teams temper their rush some. JT will be hard for LBs to chase down if he takes off. Still, I think protection is going to cause some issues as our younger OL get their feet wet.
Gosh hope to see the rock in the air since every team has been running eight in the box and three deep coverage on us for years..so tired of seeing 4-2-5 defenses with linebackers crashing the dive hole........block better and we will run better and of couse...pass better.
 

gtg936g

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We will never be a consistent or good passing team as long as we have the current philosophy on pass protection. Period. When a QB's can't even finish his drop before scrambling, you miss countless opportunities down field. Throw in old school isolation routes and the QB has an uphill battle to be a 50% passer. Not being negative, just stating what I see as a coach.

The pass protection scheme in obvious passing situations is what I fail to see corrected year after year. I am a CPJ fan, and I like the option offense he runs. I get the concept about catching them off guard with play action. I just do not understand why on 3rd and 25 we do not have a mainstream pass protection scheme. If we are going to fire off the ball with our line in those situations, we might as well just run it.
 

dressedcheeseside

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The pass protection scheme in obvious passing situations is what I fail to see corrected year after year. I am a CPJ fan, and I like the option offense he runs. I get the concept about catching them off guard with play action. I just do not understand why on 3rd and 25 we do not have a mainstream pass protection scheme. If we are going to fire off the ball with our line in those situations, we might as well just run it.
How many 3rd and 25's do you expect to convert? Me, I'd rather quick kick and have no return and hopefully flip the field.
 

gtg936g

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How many 3rd and 25's do you expect to convert? Me, I'd rather quick kick and have no return and hopefully flip the field.
Sometimes you have no choice. If you are down in the fourth quarter and you need a score you need a means to get the ball down the field. I understand that ideally you do not want to be in 3rd and long, or be down late in the game, but it happens. The same scenario would be a 1st and 10 from the 20 with a minute left in the game. IMO we don't need to abandon our core offense, but we need a few plays and a strategy to move the ball down the field when we have to. If that strategy is to throw as it has been in the past, then we need a better means to protect our QB and allow him to make a play. I do not think the current blocking strategy during those situations has been very effective.
 

IronJacket7

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If we run the ball more, then catch people of guard and thus leads to better passing efficiency...

Does that make us a better team at passing?

Or are we just better at setting up the pass?
 

Oldgoldandwhite

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Yeah, but the thing is, with this offense, we are rarely in 3rd and long. I would rather have our offense trying to run to convert on 3rd and 4 than most offenses trying to throw to convert on 3rd and 8.
Statistics are like a lamp post to a drunk: more for support than illumination. I know what I see: We convert on 3rd and long; we beat Georgia and Miami last year. If we stop 3rd and long we win about half of the games we lost, including bowl games the past few years.
 

Mack

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Statistics are like a lamp post to a drunk: more for support than illumination. I know what I see: We convert on 3rd and long; we beat Georgia and Miami last year. If we stop 3rd and long we win about half of the games we lost, including bowl games the past few years.
Bllunt talk from a old guy who used to be on sidelines on Friday night........we have to either run better or throw better ....too many folks jam the lOS and stun us and its second and eight etc.One four yd gain and its third and five or six and then it seem everybody knows we must chunk it and here comes the DL resembling a bunch of hungry lions after the Christians.........I do see JT doing the roll out since not so sure we are able to realistically pass protect in the pocket..JT can throw on the run and this will be a great boast in the arm for the offense........got to throw the rock vs the big uns.
 

GTJake

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Yeah, but the thing is, with this offense, we are rarely in 3rd and long. I would rather have our offense trying to run to convert on 3rd and 4 than most offenses trying to throw to convert on 3rd and 8.
(BTW, I would be interested to see the 3rd and long numbers. I bet they are not as bad as you think they are.)

Even if the TO is running on all cylinders, in my opinion you still need a passing threat to spread and slow down the defense. Eventually the 3rd and 4's won't get converted because you'll have 11 guys crashing the line-of-scrimmage.
 

GTRX7

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Statistics are like a lamp post to a drunk: more for support than illumination. I know what I see: We convert on 3rd and long; we beat Georgia and Miami last year. If we stop 3rd and long we win about half of the games we lost, including bowl games the past few years.

If your point is that Tech would have won more games if it converted more 3rd downs throughout the season, I agree with that. Heck, if we converted all of the 3rd downs, we would have been National Champions! However, the statistics say we were 4th in the country at converting 3rd downs last season, including 3rd and longs. I would like to see statistics on our conversion rate for 3rd and longs only, as compared to other teams, but don't know where to find that. But the point remains, even if we are absolutely horrible at 3rd and long (which I don't believe is true), the fact that we still finished 4th in the country means that we rarely got ourselves into those situations.

It would be nice to be great at all things and be the best at converting 3rd and short and 3rd and long. We can always get better, but spending significant practice time for passing on 3rd and long means we spend less time on 3rd and short. In the end, if we finish 4th in the country in 3rd down conversion, I would say we have a pretty good strategy going.

As stated in my earlier post, I agree with you that our defense under CPJ has generally been very bad at stopping 3rd downs, including 3rd and longs, and that is a big deal. It has led to a lot of losses over the last few years, including the very same UGA game you referenced. If we stop them on 4th down, it probably never comes down to Tech having to convert on 3rd down late in the game.
 

GTRX7

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Even if the TO is running on all cylinders, in my opinion you still need a passing threat to spread and slow down the defense. Eventually the 3rd and 4's won't get converted because you'll have 11 guys crashing the line-of-scrimmage.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this, including CPJ.
 
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