NCAA's Treatment of Women

[LibertyTurns]

His commitment is to do BETTER and I would expect Stansbury to be thinking the same

Yes, why he said is fine but I’ll try to clarify.

There are pivotal times when a leader has a rare opportunity to actually move the needle, move it in ways that are meaningful and significant. Great leaders seize the opportunity, inspire or direct action and a phase shift occurs.

He could have said:

“This is what we’re doing at GT....”
“This is what we’re going to do at GT....”

He basically said “Hey all you other people, you do better and I will too”. WTF does that even mean?

Just a missed opportunity IF he really plans to do anything or IF he even believes that anything needs to be done. Watch leader’s actions, not their mouths. It’s the window into their souls.

I’m sure there’s other opinions out there and mine isn’t necessarily right, but my life experiences have shown me to watch & see over listen and nod.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I think keeping them separate is actually a smart thing from the NCAA's legal perspective. It clearly defines the value of the men's assets versus the women's assets. It avoids the issue of any pay compensation disparity as a single contract for both sides could cloud the issue.

If you pay attention to what's going on with US men's and women's soccer team, the women are fighting are an equal slice of the overall pie. There's more going on with it than that, but overall, the US Soccer Federation is having to justify why men's and women's players do not get paid equally. Keeping them separate, and therefore clearly delineating income of the two sides makes the pay disparity an easier argument to defend.

Ironic that in the business world we assume the better product is worth more money but US soccer clearly refutes that, if judged by the Olympics. People are far more interested in the women’s team
( consistent winners ) than the men’s team (pretty consistent losers ) yet the pay is so different.

 

[lv20gt]

He could have said:

“This is what we’re doing at GT....”
“This is what we’re going to do at GT....”

If the topic is the NCAA's substandard treatment of women's championships why would either of those make sense as a response?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Yeah, the NCAA screwed up--like they usually do. But this isn't a sign of a systemic problem that is worthy of some protest--it's just the NCAA screwing up again.

I haven't applied for very many jobs in my life, but I have been the victim of sexual discrimination twice. The first in 1976 and the second in 1981. In both cases I was flat out told they were going to hire a woman for the job, and in both cases they hired a lesser qualified person. So, as a victim from the other side of the table, I get tired of all this stuff---especially from the standpoint that we now have to correct the wrongs of the past. 1976 was 45 years ago, and if "reverse" discrimination hasn't worked by now, it's not going to. There are obviously other factors in play.

There is no systemic problem with the NCAA it is just them screwing up like they always do.

Now that is funny.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Ironic that in the business world we assume the better product is worth more money but US soccer clearly refutes that, if judged by the Olympics. People are far more interested in the women’s team
( consistent winners ) than the men’s team (pretty consistent losers ) yet the pay is so different.

Not sure I follow. In terms of advertising revenue generated, its massively tilted in the direction of men's soccer.

Now to your point, and I agree on that point, I am a much bigger fan of women's soccer. Even if the men won more. They feign near death if the wind blows too strongly, while the women play through broken bones. But to go straight to the bottom line, the women's soccer team actually does get paid more than the men's team.

 

[LibertyTurns]

If the topic is the NCAA's substandard treatment of women's championships why would either of those make sense as a response?

Maybe you’re right and he absolutely nailed what the NCAA should be doing, but isn’t GT a prominent member of the NCAA? I thought the NCAA is a member-led organization dedicated to the well-being and lifelong success of college athletes? If the member’s don’t lead then you have no leadership.

Call me crazy but you aspire to be CEO, President, Chairman, etc to LEAD people doing great things. It was a flaccid response when rising to the challenge was needed. It wasn’t wrong, just disappointing leadership or possible even a lack of leadership depending on how you look at it. He hid under her skirt instead of standing with her or better yet committing to steps to easing her and future ladies’ roads to more success.

 

[lv20gt]

Maybe you’re right and he absolutely nailed what the NCAA should be doing, but isn’t GT a prominent member of the NCAA? I thought the NCAA is a member-led organization dedicated to the well-being and lifelong success of college athletes? If the member’s don’t lead then you have no leadership.

Call me crazy but you aspire to be CEO, President, Chairman, etc to LEAD people doing great things. It was a flaccid response when rising to the challenge was needed. It wasn’t wrong, just disappointing leadership or possible even a lack of leadership depending on how you look at it. He hid under her skirt instead of standing with her or better yet committing to steps to easing her and future ladies’ roads to more success.

Being member led doesn't mean every member is a leader. The topic being discussed is well beyond Caprera's ability to do anything about directly. Him supporting the coach is what he needed to do, which is what he did. The message didn't need any further elaborating nor did he need to try and put himself at the fore front when Nell is a better person for that role to begin with.

You're not crazy. You're just pretentious and seem to think being the leader just means grabbing the spotlight needlessly. How could he possibly commit to anything that would address how the NCAA runs their tournament? He can't.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Being member led doesn't mean every member is a leader. The topic being discussed is well beyond Caprera's ability to do anything about directly. Him supporting the coach is what he needed to do, which is what he did. The message didn't need any further elaborating nor did he need to try and put himself at the fore front when Nell is a better person for that role to begin with.

You're not crazy. You're just pretentious and seem to think being the leader just means grabbing the spotlight needlessly. How could he possibly commit to anything that would address how the NCAA runs their tournament? He can't.

You were making good points until you got personal.

So lets back up to that point. Liberty suggested actions like:
He could have said:

“This is what we’re doing at GT....”
“This is what we’re going to do at GT....”

He also posed the question - (paraphrasing) - how can you demand the NCAA give out equal accommodations, funding, etc if you yourself haven't done anything to provide equal pay for coaches, recruiting, facilities, in your own house?

Addressing those suggestions and comments would do well to ferret out was Liberty actually being pretentious, or does he have a valid point that you just can't answer and maybe that's why the personal diversion?

 

[lv20gt]

He also posed the question - (paraphrasing) - how can you demand the NCAA give out equal accommodations, funding, etc if you yourself haven't done anything to provide equal pay for coaches, recruiting, facilities, in your own house?

Except the comparison is blatantly a bad one. The apt comparison would be whether the facilities that the women had met with at least basic expectations and were at least somewhat proportional to the mens. That is the issue brought up, not that there was a difference, but that no thought was even given to the women's tournament in a number of ways. Now if there are issues about things like that then sure, bring them up. But the only hint at that being the case is Joseph's claims which at this point I don't see any reason people would put trust in.

Talking about salary is a different issue all together. That has nothing to do with conditions of the players. What the coach makes doesn't affect the ability of the players to play. Beyond that, while Joseph isn't getting the level of money Pastner is, she is almost certainly well compensated (if the numbers she was getting at Auburn are indicative of what she gets here) and my guess is her contract is likely more lucrative relative to the standard than Pastner's is.

 

[GTpdm]

Being member led doesn't mean every member is a leader. The topic being discussed is well beyond Caprera's ability to do anything about directly. Him supporting the coach is what he needed to do, which is what he did. The message didn't need any further elaborating nor did he need to try and put himself at the fore front when Nell is a better person for that role to begin with.

You're not crazy. You're just pretentious and seem to think being the leader just means grabbing the spotlight needlessly. How could he possibly commit to anything that would address how the NCAA runs their tournament? He can't.

Exactly. It was not the time or place for Cabrera to butt in front of Nell and start man-splaining how he was going to fix equity problems at Tech. It would generate an awful look.

Besides, it makes no sense to want our president to respond to an equity complaint directed at the NCAA, by talking about action we would take at Georgia Tech. Doing so would be a tacit admission that we were guilty of the same disregard of women's sports as the NCAA.

(A) Why the hell would anyone want our president to lie GT down in bed with the NCAA? Nobody likes the NCAA, so here's a great idea: let's plant the image in everyone's mind that GT is as bad about respecting women athletes as the NCAA has been.

(2) Isn't the MaChelle Joseph gender inequity lawsuit still pending? If Cabrera made the sort of public announcement that Liberty suggested, he'd be providing a smoking gun for Jospeh's lawyer. "Oh really? So now you are openly admitting that you've been violating Title IX? Great—thanks! See you in court!"

Best thing Cabrera could have done in this situation was to show his support for Nell, quietly but clearly, and let this thing play out—you know, like he actually did.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Except the comparison is blatantly a bad one. The apt comparison would be whether the facilities that the women had met with at least basic expectations and were at least somewhat proportional to the mens. That is the issue brought up, not that there was a difference, but that no thought was even given to the women's tournament in a number of ways. Now if there are issues about things like that then sure, bring them up. But the only hint at that being the case is Joseph's claims which at this point I don't see any reason people would put trust in.

Talking about salary is a different issue all together. That has nothing to do with conditions of the players. What the coach makes doesn't affect the ability of the players to play. Beyond that, while Joseph isn't getting the level of money Pastner is, she is almost certainly well compensated (if the numbers she was getting at Auburn are indicative of what she gets here) and my guess is her contract is likely more lucrative relative to the standard than Pastner's is.

100%. All of these continue to be good points.

Not to put words in Liberty's mouth (but I am ), but that's not all Nell posted about. She asked in what other endeavor would it be acceptable to give women inferior resources because of their perceived cash value? Well, compared to the men, she's paid significantly less, so is her staff, her recruiting budget is smaller too, and their other resources are inferior. So I'd say that's her answer.

She and all of us are pretty much unanimous that there has to be some minimum standard for accommodations for the women's tournament and that the NCAA failed. It looked/looks like empty high school gyms and convention ballrooms. Women's basketball is a money losing venture. We all give them the short end of the stick as described in the previous paragraph. But I guess we're okay giving them much less resources because at least our minimum at Georgia Tech meets their minimum standards when the tournament didn't. Maybe that's the conclusion on all this. Just interested to see when Cabrera says we all need to do better what he has in mind for himself and Georgia Tech. My guess is nothing, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[dtm1997]

GTWBB locker room > GTMBB locker room

 

[LibertyTurns]

Addressing those suggestions and comments would do well to ferret out was Liberty actually being pretentious, or does he have a valid point that you just can't answer and maybe that's why the personal diversion?

I was not aware @lv20gt was being personal but maybe it’s because I’m not as thin skinned as others on here. I was not trying to be pretentious either. I wish I was a mod so I could move this to a stand-alone thread.

It might be good for people to understand what they truly stand for. We hear the equality word thrown around a lot these days. Is it equality of outcome, equality of opportunity or eliminating the conditions under which there’s inequality?

If I was Cabrera and Stansbury who I believe to have been silent so far unless I’m mistaken, I would have shuddered at a prominent representative of my organization striking out on their own using the power of my organization to further her agenda.

Our country is based on freedom, however when you are at work or in a work capacity, you relinquish certain freedoms as part of your work contract. What Fortner has done in my mind is unacceptable and is a terminable offense. Now Cabrera cannot fire her because he would not be able to stand the heat and Fortner has placed him in a very awkward position.

As GT’s leader he either believes:

a. Fortner is absolutely correct and women should have exactly the same resources as men because GT is a government entity and it’s the right thing to do. He should take appropriate action, affirm her statement, etc. Note: He did not

b. Fortner is absolutely wrong and the women have gotten what they have earned. Well, he’s now in a pickle because he may not want to say what he thinks & is bowing to political pressure to say something positive-neutral instead of airing grievances in public. To me this would be a cop out.

One thing’s for certain. Fortner said what she said and it’s out there for all the world to see. There will be political grandstanding, sides will form and careers will be made, ended, damaged and enhanced from the decisions made in response. GT will now be front and center like it or not. People will be watching to see what GT does- lip service, take action or token response to kick the can down the road.

The upcoming days will be interesting indeed as this will be hammered out in the media.

 

[lv20gt]

that's not all Nell posted about. She asked in what other endeavor would it be acceptable to give women inferior resources because of their perceived cash value? Well, compared to the men, she's paid significantly less, so is her staff, her recruiting budget is smaller too, and their other resources are inferior. So I'd say that's her answer.

I think you left off a few words there. She asked in what other non-profit educational endeavor... I wouldn't describe coaching as non-profit and the obvious education connection is that the SAs are just that. Student athletes. I don't believe Nell is. Also, I would describe salary as compensation not a resource (at least so far as the job goes, it's a resource for Nell personally). And yes, Nell gets less compensation and recruiting resources compared to Pastner. And Pastner gets less compared to K. All three are working in different jobs though, not non-profit educational endeavors. Nell's point was clearly aimed at the resources of the women on the team who weren't holding jobs, but rather being students athletes.

She and all of us are pretty much unanimous that there has to be some minimum standard for accommodations for the women's tournament and that the NCAA failed. It looked/looks like empty high school gyms and convention ballrooms. Women's basketball is a money losing venture. We all give them the short end of the stick as described in the previous paragraph. But I guess we're okay giving them much less resources because at least our minimum at Georgia Tech meets their minimum standards when the tournament didn't. Maybe that's the conclusion on all this. Just interested to see when Cabrera says we all need to do better what he has in mind for himself and Georgia Tech. My guess is nothing, but maybe I'm wrong.

But is it the case that there are less resources for the actual SAs? Not talking for Nell vs Josh, but the players. Do the women have less access to the health services, or educational support, or weightroom etc, compared to the men? Are their dorms in significantly worse condition? I don't actually know. My assumption is that with the way Joseph left and the history that Nell has she probably wouldn't have taken this job if that was an issue, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I think you left off a few words there. She asked in what other non-profit educational endeavor... I wouldn't describe coaching as non-profit and the obvious education connection is that the SAs are just that. Student athletes. I don't believe Nell is. Also, I would describe salary as compensation not a resource (at least so far as the job goes, it's a resource for Nell personally). And yes, Nell gets less compensation and recruiting resources compared to Pastner. And Pastner gets less compared to K. All three are working in different jobs though, not non-profit educational endeavors. Nell's point was clearly aimed at the resources of the women on the team who weren't holding jobs, but rather being students athletes.




But is it the case that there are less resources for the actual SAs? Not talking for Nell vs Josh, but the players. Do the women have less access to the health services, or educational support, or weightroom etc, compared to the men? Are their dorms in significantly worse condition? I don't actually know. My assumption is that with the way Joseph left and the history that Nell has she probably wouldn't have taken this job if that was an issue, but I don't know for sure.

Not going to spend the time to look it up, but I’d be surprised if the NCAAs budget for facilities, accommodations, food shuttles, security, etc is wildly different between the men and women. Likewise, I’d be equally surprised if the total budget for the men’s basketball team isn’t wildly different than that of the women’s team.

 

[LibertyTurns]

@bwelbo Took a lot of digging because GT moved their financial statements.

2019 Men’s basketball revenue: $6.4M, Women’s $65k (not a typo). That’s event related sales (tickets, club seats, Tech fund donations, concessions, parking, etc) plus TV revenue from ACC.

What they’re spending is not broken out but if I was a betting man I’d say Men’s basketball is probably breaking even maybe even slightly cash flow positive, the women’s program is what it is.

 

[GT_EE78]

that's nothing.When i tried out for Boys high school basketball we didn't even have a weight room,
just a bunch of free weights behind the bleachers. food - yeah right.
and if you let the boys HS teams compete in the womens College championship they would beat the women every time ,
because the boys are taller,stronger,run faster and jump higher.
High schools are paid for by taxpayer dollars too so where's the outrage ??
Maybe Nell ate too many sour grapes?
then we had to go home and make ourselves a baloney sandwich.

 

[YlJacket]

What the NCAA did was flat stupid. It is one of about 500 reasons to fire Emmert tomorrow. Nell simply commented about obvious low hanging fruit. I don't blame her nor do I see her as some revolutionary for doing it. The stuff she was talking about was kind of minimum reasonable standard for the NCAA.

If it gets her some pub in the women's basketball circles and perks the ear of a recruit or two - electrons well spent.

 

[85Escape]

Exactly. It was not the time or place for Cabrera to butt in front of Nell and start man-splaining how he was going to fix equity problems at Tech. It would generate an awful look.

I always chuckle when I see people fighting for women's equality and passionately arguing that gender should not be the basis for judging people use the term 'man-splaining.'

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[MWBATL]

The level of victim mentality in the US is beyond anything anywhere else in the world (where in many cases there are MUCH truer victims). It is fostered by our political system which rewards power to those who focus on it and promise to solve it. Media, and now social media, have only served to amplify that message so it has become downright harmful to society in general. It is not unique to the US, but it is amplified more here.

I agree with Nell's complaints in general, almost exclusively because these are student athletes in publicly funded universities. I do not completely dismiss the economic arguments however, as in many public universities the athletic scholarships and provisions are funded separately by Athletic Associations which are private and hence subject to economic decision making.

I tend towards the "NCAA is horrible and should be disbanded" argument and perhaps that is why Nell's focus on their ineptitude doesn't bother me. They use the same economic decision making when deciding whether to penalize a university that brings them tons of cash (hint, hint: UNC in basketball) as opposed to one that doesn't (hint, hint, GT). And so I silently relish them being roasted because of it...