NCAA's Treatment of Women

RonJohn

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They don't have to, and they don't. There should be acceptable minimums, but to demand that an organization lose money in any endeavor (whether they are a for-profit business or not) borders on silliness. We've all pretty much been unanimous on what those minimums look like and that the NCAA failed in that regard on the women's basketball tournament. But they spend a lot less money on the women's tournament in a lot other areas too.
I said they have to be treated the same, not that they have to spend the same dollar for dollar.

Is it OK to have the tournament in different cities? I see no reason why not. If it wasn't for COVID, I would rather spend a few weeks in San Antonio than in Indianapolis. During COVID, I don't think location even really matters. If you travel from the hotel directly to a gym and then directly back to the hotel, it doesn't really matter what is between those two locations.

Is it OK for ESPN to pay much less for TV rights for the women's tournament than CBS pays for the men's? It is a free market. I'm sure the NCAA would love to be able to force networks to pay $1billion for every tournament they run, but they won't get it.

You have agreed that the NCAA has failed on multiple counts to reach minimum standards for the women's tournament. I think the biggest failure is in management and administration. The NCAA is showing that they are a business mainly concerned about profit, instead of a non-profit that promotes "Youth/amateur sports competition". The NCAA is not only a non-profit, they are a 501(c)(3) organization. The stated purpose of the NCAA is:
The National Collegiate Athletic Association is a membership-driven organization dedicated to safeguarding the well-being of student-athletes and equipping them with the skills to succeed on the playing field, in the classroom and throughout life.
Are they doing that for all NCAA student athletes, or only select ones? I am not saying that it would be successful, but a lesser treated athlete, such as a women's basketball player, could file a complaint with the IRS and try to have their 501(c)(3) status removed. There have been athletes who have attempted to have the NCAA declared a monopoly, and the NCAA has been fighting to get an antitrust exemption passed into law. It is ridiculous that the NCAA has allowed the lack of "minimum standards" for women with all of the other potential legal issues that they are facing. The NCAA has a large range of issues that they are facing: Antitrust, gender issues, enforcement issues, amateur status issues, etc.: And yet, they fumble on every single one of those issues and don't appear to have any idea about what they should be doing. If they would stick to their stated purpose, then they would be in much better shape. They appear to be flapping around with no discernable purpose.
 

okiemon

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So now I read that the NCAA has hired a law firm to investigate and tell them where they are not treating men’s and women’s sports equally and what they should change. Seems to me they could sit in a room, put two columns on the whiteboard, and make a list. They could figure that out in a day. Not only does the approach they’ve chosen spend a lot of money, but it drags the whole process out so that the heat will die off before they have to do anything.

Big fan of the NCAA here, in case you can’t tell.
 

Deleted member 2897

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So now I read that the NCAA has hired a law firm to investigate and tell them where they are not treating men’s and women’s sports equally and what they should change. Seems to me they could sit in a room, put two columns on the whiteboard, and make a list. They could figure that out in a day. Not only does the approach they’ve chosen spend a lot of money, but it drags the whole process out so that the heat will die off before they have to do anything.

Big fan of the NCAA here, in case you can’t tell.

100%. If you wanted to uncover and fix any problems, lawyers would be the last people you would hire in this case.
 

YlJacket

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The deal isn't "equal". This wouldn't be an issue or even known about if the NCAA had just been smart or reasonable about how they set up the women's bubble. Put in a reasonable weight room not even the equal of the men's but reasonable and this ain't an issue. They didn't pay attention and did stupid stuff. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put in a legit weight room just an organization with half a PR brain
 

85Escape

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I don't know this for sure, but I'm willing to place a beer bet that the 'decision' to set up the women's bubble wasn't made by some dude, but by a committee that included a reasonable number of women. I'm guessing in hind-sight there will be a few people who say "I tried to tell them they should put in a better weight room, but I was oppressed!" But the truth is likely that the women's tournament committee is composed of more junior NCAA project managers who were working with a limited budget. They likely didn't prioritize the weight room and decals in order to spend elsewhere where they thought it was more important. It's a good lesson on the value of perception over reality (in terms of where to spend your budget.)

As to the question: "Should the NCAA spend exactly the same amount of money for both the men's and women's basketball tournaments?" On the one hand you could argue that it should all be 100% equal with no acknowledgement of the differences in the scale (ticket draw, advertising, media interest, etc.) On the other hand you could easily construct an argument that it should be 100% proportional to the revenue generation, which would not be reasonable since it means the women's tourney would get even less budget than they currently get.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I land on the 'reasonable explanation' side. Once you say that both tourneys must be treated 100% equally, you'll have to ask why basketball gets more money from the NCAA than, say, Lacrosse. In the end most people would agree that the NCAA shouldn't spend 100% equal amounts for both basketball and lacrosse tourneys because they are different. So where do you get to make that distinction and where not? Only when gender and race can be used as a baiting argument? Be careful there, as the black-dominated basketball NCAA sport gets a heck of a lot more money than the almost Lilly-white lacrosse tourney!
 

RonJohn

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I don't know this for sure, but I'm willing to place a beer bet that the 'decision' to set up the women's bubble wasn't made by some dude, but by a committee that included a reasonable number of women. I'm guessing in hind-sight there will be a few people who say "I tried to tell them they should put in a better weight room, but I was oppressed!" But the truth is likely that the women's tournament committee is composed of more junior NCAA project managers who were working with a limited budget. They likely didn't prioritize the weight room and decals in order to spend elsewhere where they thought it was more important. It's a good lesson on the value of perception over reality (in terms of where to spend your budget.)

As to the question: "Should the NCAA spend exactly the same amount of money for both the men's and women's basketball tournaments?" On the one hand you could argue that it should all be 100% equal with no acknowledgement of the differences in the scale (ticket draw, advertising, media interest, etc.) On the other hand you could easily construct an argument that it should be 100% proportional to the revenue generation, which would not be reasonable since it means the women's tourney would get even less budget than they currently get.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I land on the 'reasonable explanation' side. Once you say that both tourneys must be treated 100% equally, you'll have to ask why basketball gets more money from the NCAA than, say, Lacrosse. In the end most people would agree that the NCAA shouldn't spend 100% equal amounts for both basketball and lacrosse tourneys because they are different. So where do you get to make that distinction and where not? Only when gender and race can be used as a baiting argument? Be careful there, as the black-dominated basketball NCAA sport gets a heck of a lot more money than the almost Lilly-white lacrosse tourney!
I think the big issue with the discussion is that people tend to move to extreme positions and not trying to understand the actual details. Some people believe that it should be equal dollar for dollar and that anyone who doesn't believe that is an idiot and shouldn't be listened to. Other people believe that it should be based solely on revenue generated and that anyone who says otherwise is simply whining and shouldn't be listened to. Neither of those groups of people even pay attention to the details.

The NCAA pays the travel budget for teams that are in NCAA tournaments. Should the men's teams get a larger travel budget than women's teams?

With respect to the courts, logos on the courts, and branding: An argument being made is that fewer people watch women's basketball so the NCAA shouldn't spend money on such things. In my opinion, that involves circular reasoning. If the NCAA doesn't brand and promote women's basketball, then there is zero chance of gaining a larger audience and pulling in more revenue. The NCAA cannot dictate that fans multiply, but it doesn't look like they have been doing anything to try to influence people to watch.

On the NCAA website, they have a page that shows operating costs for tournaments.(although it is very old, 2011-2012 latest figures) Back then, they spent about $90 million on 89 championship tournaments across all three divisions. About $79 million of that was for travel costs.(As I insinuated before, it would be difficult to justify different travel costs by gender and it would also be difficult to justify differences by race.) That only leaves $11 million for funding the actual tournaments.(arena rentals, arena workers, supplies, and whatever else). There can't be that big of a difference in how they pay for the lacrosse tournament than the men's basketball tournament. They are using Lucas Oil Stadium for the basketball championship this year. They used UCON's field last year for lacrosse and have in the past used Gillette Stadium and Lincoln Financial Field. It doesn't look like there is much difference in the facilities to me.

I do think you are probably correct that they used a lower level of organizers. I have no idea how the branding wasn't included in the women's tournament. I would suspect that the weight facilities were included for the men because of COVID. The teams are isolated in the hotels, and the limited hotel facilities probably can't be trusted to be sanitized, so they decided to place equipment and have sanitization protocols. The problem is probably that upper level management wasn't paying attention and didn't implement such things across the PM teams. It would not have the appearance of being a systematic gender thing, except that it appears that every single difference in what the management teams did favored the men's tournament. If the men's tournament didn't have courts with logos on it during the first round and women did, but the men had better workout facilities, then it would appear that the management teams concentrated in different areas. As things turned out, exactly what did the women's committee concentrate on?
 

Vespidae

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As things turned out, exactly what did the women's committee concentrate on?
It’s hard to say. Most sports have detailed guidelines appropriate for that sport. Watch a junior golf tournament. It is set up very differently than a PGA event.

Does a women’s basketball team need to play in a 40,000 seat arena? Probably not. Ever.

Some sports will never develop interest more than they have.
 

RonJohn

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It’s hard to say. Most sports have detailed guidelines appropriate for that sport. Watch a junior golf tournament. It is set up very differently than a PGA event.

Does a women’s basketball team need to play in a 40,000 seat arena? Probably not. Ever.

Some sports will never develop interest more than they have.
I agree that the facilities can be different for valid reasons between men's and women's events. However, that is not a justification for a complete lack of branding nor for extremely different amenities at the respective facilities.

Using your analogy: How many junior golf organizations provide Gatorade for the boys tournament, but say that the girls don't need energy drinks so don't provide it at the girls tournament? How many LPGA evens have you seen on television that didn't have LPGA branding on the course and on the scoreboards?

I have not said that they must provide the exact same arena for the girls tournament. I have been specific about details that I see as inadequate. You seem to want to lump me in a group that wants the exact same funding dollar for dollar, so you can ignore the details that I am discussing.
 

majorQ9

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The NCAA is saying they've actually spent more on the Women's Bubble than the Men's.
16 Million on the Women's
14 Million on the Men's

Seems hard to believe based on the facilities, swag bags, COVID Tests, etc

 

Deleted member 2897

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The NCAA is saying they've actually spent more on the Women's Bubble than the Men's.
16 Million on the Women's
14 Million on the Men's

Seems hard to believe based on the facilities, swag bags, COVID Tests, etc


In years past there have been tremendous disparities in spending between the men's tournament and the women's tournament (detailed in that article). But this year (with a bunch of eyeballs on it), they expect to spend more on the women. I can't wait to see this creative accounting.
 

MWBATL

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In years past there have been tremendous disparities in spending between the men's tournament and the women's tournament (detailed in that article). But this year (with a bunch of eyeballs on it), they expect to spend more on the women. I can't wait to see this creative accounting.
I think I need that accountant to do my taxes ......anyone have their phone number?
 

YlJacket

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The NCAA is saying they've actually spent more on the Women's Bubble than the Men's.
16 Million on the Women's
14 Million on the Men's

Seems hard to believe based on the facilities, swag bags, COVID Tests, etc

If that is supposed to be their real response to the social media world it should have been available long time ago. I really would fire their PR staff - with Emmert along for the ride.
 

lv20gt

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In years past there have been tremendous disparities in spending between the men's tournament and the women's tournament (detailed in that article). But this year (with a bunch of eyeballs on it), they expect to spend more on the women. I can't wait to see this creative accounting.


The details in the article makes sense, especially the part about the first and second round games being played on campus for the women's tournaments. Keep in mind, with 67 games being played total nearly 78% of the games are played in the first 2 rounds, including play in games. Assuming they can reasonably cut a lot of costs with housing and having a floor by playing on the women's home court, it makes sense that there are usually big savings. Now whether that decision to have the first two rounds of the women's tournaments to be on the campus of the higher seed is another topic probably worth discussing, but I don't think that difference is bad on its face. Personally I wish that was the case for the men's game although there are plenty of reasons against it. (I'm not trying to create a spin off of the spin off I swear).

I believe the women are allowed 15 scholarship players correct compared to the 13 for the men? If true that is ~15% increased scholarships and that about the % difference in 16 vs 18 figure which makes sense in creating the bubble (in terms of rough figures). It wouldn't surprise me if that is roughly how they determined the budgets. The devil is in the details though. For instance, even if all the players, men and women, had similar quality hotel rooms, the location difference could drive up the cost of one vs the other. Just one type of example. But let's say that is the case and for a similar room in SA it costs more than in Indy. That means the situation is do they spend more money to provide similar quality, or do they allocate similar money at the price of lower quality for the women. My guess is the lawyers hired will find a way to justify the difference in terms of $ allocation.

But I doubt they will justify the situation of the women not having work out equipment at all for two rounds or for the tournament to have no branding at all, or especially if the complaints about inadequate covid testing holds (which if there are more players total for the women the same amount of money spent on that for both doesn't make much sense)
 

forensicbuzz

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Regardless of how much is paid into the men's basketball and football programs, the revenue generated by those two teams funds the entirety of the rest of the sports teams. That is a reality. It's unequivocal.

Is there a way to develop other sports as revenue-generating sports? It's possible, but that will never happen if there is not a focused effort by those in charge to market other sports/teams to the general public. Is it a chicken/egg thing? I have no idea. I'm an engineer, not a marketer. But, I could see it happening.
 

Vespidae

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You seem to want to lump me in a group that wants the exact same funding dollar for dollar, so you can ignore the details that I am discussing.
Did I mention you? I don’t think I did. Did I say exact funding? I think I’m making the exact opposite point.

My point is much more basic. Perhaps we are assuming that the managers of the Mens tourney meet with the managers of the Women’s tourney and they harmonize the program so the product is the same. Or even considers the same things. And looks at similar checklists. My argument is they probably don’t.

Does the Marriott Team meet with the Courtyard Team? Do the Rome Braves meet with Gwinnett Braves? Does the Macon Airport meet with the Savannah Airport?

Perhaps the rates the women’s pay to rent arenas doesn’t compensate enough for branding? Or they offered and it was turned down because it wasn’t worth it.

Minor sports have more limited options. Because they are minor.
 

forensicbuzz

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Minor sports have more limited options. Because they are minor.
A larger question might be why are they minor sports? Is that because they are an inferior product or because history is against them and there has never been a marketing strategy to elevate them beyond minor? I don't know the answer to this question, but I think that is the better question to ask.
 

Vespidae

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A larger question might be why are they minor sports? Is that because they are an inferior product or because history is against them and there has never been a marketing strategy to elevate them beyond minor? I don't know the answer to this question, but I think that is the better question to ask.
Some products have limited appeal. Will Ribbon Dancing ever be a billion dollar sport? Probably not.

Its harder to get tickets to football and basketball because the demand is higher. For many other sports, it’s free or near free ... is that wrong? Or is it because consumers can choose where to spend their entertainment dollars?

I would bet you could spend $100 million marketing lacrosse and it wouldn’t change anything.
 
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