Mostly “Fire Geoff Collins”, some reminiscing, maybe bourbon or other distractions

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,491
Our endowment isn't for athletics though, correct?
That was the a big point of the point I was trying to make

Liberty
- has a large $1.6B endowment, with few strings attached
- are a private institution and have greater independence in their financial decisions

Georgia Tech
- has a larger $2.2B endowment with lots of strings attached
- there are also research $$
- that endowment is not usable by the Athletic Association beyond some negligible (‘here is a box lunch’) amount. This isn’t just “Regents say it’s not OK”—it’s state law creating a financial firewall between the academic and athletic sides of the house
- on the academic and research side, the $2.2B can be used. That side of GT is way in the green
- on the athletic side of the house, the academic endowment and research money does not exist. The AA is $200MM in the red.

There may be a few creative things that the academic side of the house can do, but I think they’re close to the legal max they can give the AA.

The general answer to “GT has $X, why can’t the AA do <insert thing>” is “The AA isn’t GT, and that’s un-possible in the current setup”.
 

GTLorenzo

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,553
Agree. Virtually any coach in P5 was going to get 3 years where it was hard to fire them. That’s true here or at other P5 schools. Collins got 4 because of the “pro style” transition. Everything else is window dressing.

If you’re keyed up about “7 years”, then know almost every other P5 coach hired at the same time got 6 years.**

It makes sense to be mad we’re losing, and losing more than we should, and not making progress like we should. It makes sense to be mad we didn’t do a course correction with some of the assistants last year; we could see something was off, but it was hard to tell how much was COVID hitting us harder because we were a younger team. But wanting us to sign a more AA-friendly contract than the average when we had a bigger shift on the OL than others isn’t realistic.

**6 years isn't really "6 years", but it's a scheduled contract if the first 3 or so years go well. Just like 7 years is really 4 years. It's like "newspeak"

Not every coach signed the same year Collins was hired got 6 years. Louisville did due to the train wreck Petrino left. Almost all others were 5.

Talked to a guy who heads one of the main executive search firms for coaches and ADs two nights ago at my house. Said the 7 year contract was stupid and not necessary. Also said we are in a tough situation because we don't have the money to compete these days. For the record, we discussed Pastner and he likes (not loves) him. Agreed with me that Pastner "gets it" regarding the fans, his image, press conferences, etc. and Collins just doesn't. Said Pastner is a good guy and really wants him to succeed. Basically said no one else in the country was hiring Collins so why did they give him a 7 year deal. He would've crawled to ATL for the GT job. Stansbury got jobbed (my words, not his).
 

burdell151

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
106
That was the a big point of the point I was trying to make

Liberty
- has a large $1.6B endowment, with few strings attached
- are a private institution and have greater independence in their financial decisions

Georgia Tech
- has a larger $2.2B endowment with lots of strings attached
- there are also research $$
- that endowment is not usable by the Athletic Association beyond some negligible (‘here is a box lunch’) amount. This isn’t just “Regents say it’s not OK”—it’s state law creating a financial firewall between the academic and athletic sides of the house
- on the academic and research side, the $2.2B can be used. That side of GT is way in the green
- on the athletic side of the house, the academic endowment and research money does not exist. The AA is $200MM in the red.

There may be a few creative things that the academic side of the house can do, but I think they’re close to the legal max they can give the AA.

The general answer to “GT has $X, why can’t the AA do <insert thing>” is “The AA isn’t GT, and that’s un-possible in the current setup”.
All of this is 100% correct and true.

The only thing we can really kvetch about with regard to the Institute and monetary support for Athletics is the muddied waters about giving and not making it clear what donations go where and how. Outside of Roll Call, it is extremely difficult to give to Tech in small (read: below 5-figure amounts) and get it where you want to go unless you know exactly who to contact. Getting funds to a scholarship my group was setting up was far more of a head-hassle than it should have been and it took over a year to get a method by which to give electronically. Hopefully with the changes on The Hill and in the Alumni Association, these lines will become clearer for everybody and the folks who want to give to Athletics are steered in the right direction.

In the meantime, for the uninitiated:
  • If you want to give to Athletics in any way shape or form, donations should go to the A-T Fund
  • If you want to give an unrestricted (Institute can shuffle the dollars to programs and projects as needed) gift, give to Roll Call. Also, you get A-T points for consecutive years of giving to Roll Call, so it's a good idea to give something (something as small as $25) to Roll Call to tick that box.
  • If you want to give to a specific college/school/program, contact their office directly because it'll likely be different for each one.
 

gt02

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
634
That was the a big point of the point I was trying to make

Liberty
- has a large $1.6B endowment, with few strings attached
- are a private institution and have greater independence in their financial decisions

Georgia Tech
- has a larger $2.2B endowment with lots of strings attached
- there are also research $$
- that endowment is not usable by the Athletic Association beyond some negligible (‘here is a box lunch’) amount. This isn’t just “Regents say it’s not OK”—it’s state law creating a financial firewall between the academic and athletic sides of the house
- on the academic and research side, the $2.2B can be used. That side of GT is way in the green
- on the athletic side of the house, the academic endowment and research money does not exist. The AA is $200MM in the red.

There may be a few creative things that the academic side of the house can do, but I think they’re close to the legal max they can give the AA.

The general answer to “GT has $X, why can’t the AA do <insert thing>” is “The AA isn’t GT, and that’s un-possible in the current setup”.
I would assume UGA similarly restricted on the AA side (but not in the red due to the profitability of their football program)?
 

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,491
I would assume UGA similarly restricted on the AA side (but not in the red due to the profitability of their football program)?
Their AA practically prints money. It’s one of the most flush in the country.

Someone posted the restrictions for state schools in the forum a year or two ago. I don’t know if there are differences for different schools, but the general outline seems to be the same.

We seem to paint ourselves into corners a good bit. Others have better insights into the ADs, but Rice seemed to have things down pat, and it’s been a mess since then.
 

Skeptic

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,372
Liberty University is
- A private university, and as long as they stay within the law, have much greater freedom in how they spend their money than we do
- Has a $1.6 billion dollar endowment, and they can apply that to sports if they want to (we can't use our University endowment in that way--we have to stick to AA funds)
- That endowment isn't as large as ours, but it's dang big for a G5 school
"Liberty" and "law" are not words normally appearing in same sentence. And if "Freeze" is in there, well ...
 

CuseJacket

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
19,554
Point me to the orange bowls and 11 win seasons Chan had. Chan was nice and steady, overall a good coach, but not a great coach. CPJ had a lower floor, but a higher ceiling, and will be in the college football hall of fame as a coach.
I liked CPJ more than CCG as our HC.

In fairness though, there are a number of things that worked for (and against) CPJ that I think get lost in these types of discussions. Among the stats that without proper context give CPJ the benefit of the doubt:
  • Prior to CPJ, the ACC runner-up did not auto-qualify for the Orange Bowl as we did in 2014 (thanks to FSU competing for bigger postseason things). Absent that auto-qualification rule, a 3-loss Georgia Tech was not going to be chosen at-large (imo), despite being deserving based on the product on the field. I'm basing that on criteria that classically motivates bowls to select at-large (big travelling fan base, brand name, etc).
  • CCG and CPJ had the same ACC Championship game qualification rate (approx 1 every 6 years). I understand that folks will point to CPJ's 3 appearances in 11 years, but I don't lump in the 6-6 season as a mark of accomplishment, particularly since two teams ahead of us in the Coastal were DQ'd. Every single season of Chan's was > .500, and he should get the same benefit of the doubt on an apples to apples comparison.
  • Chan Gailey actually had a marginally better win percentage overall in my math is correct, in an apples to apples comparison, specifically targeting records against FBS/D-1. Georgia Tech didn't start playing FCS until 2004, if I recall correctly. Neither coach lost to FCS. Said another way, toss in a couple FCS opponent for CCG in 2002-2003, all other things remaining the same, does he become an 8-win coach?
Anyway, I doubt this sways many folks, but I think it's relevant, despite my preference for CPJ in the overall comparison.
 

wrmathis

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
929
Location
Bonaire GA
I liked CPJ more than CCG as our HC.

In fairness though, there are a number of things that worked for (and against) CPJ that I think get lost in these types of discussions. Among the stats that without proper context give CPJ the benefit of the doubt:
  • Prior to CPJ, the ACC runner-up did not auto-qualify for the Orange Bowl as we did in 2014 (thanks to FSU competing for bigger postseason things). Absent that auto-qualification rule, a 3-loss Georgia Tech was not going to be chosen at-large (imo), despite being deserving based on the product on the field. I'm basing that on criteria that classically motivates bowls to select at-large (big travelling fan base, brand name, etc).
  • CCG and CPJ had the same ACC Championship game qualification rate (approx 1 every 6 years). I understand that folks will point to CPJ's 3 appearances in 11 years, but I don't lump in the 6-6 season as a mark of accomplishment, particularly since two teams ahead of us in the Coastal were DQ'd. Every single season of Chan's was > .500, and he should get the same benefit of the doubt on an apples to apples comparison.
  • Chan Gailey actually had a marginally better win percentage overall in my math is correct, in an apples to apples comparison, specifically targeting records against FBS/D-1. Georgia Tech didn't start playing FCS until 2004, if I recall correctly. Neither coach lost to FCS. Said another way, toss in a couple FCS opponent for CCG in 2002-2003, all other things remaining the same, does he become an 8-win coach?
Anyway, I doubt this sways many folks, but I think it's relevant, despite my preference for CPJ in the overall comparison.
Tech played furman in 95
Ucf was a first year fbs in 96
Citadel in 2001

So ucf was probably scheduled at as an fcs team before bumping up that year.

I only went back to O’Leary’s first full year. I know tech played fcs teams before that cuz they lost/tied to furman in the 80s
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,907
Location
Oriental, NC
I liked CPJ more than CCG as our HC.

In fairness though, there are a number of things that worked for (and against) CPJ that I think get lost in these types of discussions. Among the stats that without proper context give CPJ the benefit of the doubt:
  • Prior to CPJ, the ACC runner-up did not auto-qualify for the Orange Bowl as we did in 2014 (thanks to FSU competing for bigger postseason things). Absent that auto-qualification rule, a 3-loss Georgia Tech was not going to be chosen at-large (imo), despite being deserving based on the product on the field. I'm basing that on criteria that classically motivates bowls to select at-large (big travelling fan base, brand name, etc).
  • CCG and CPJ had the same ACC Championship game qualification rate (approx 1 every 6 years). I understand that folks will point to CPJ's 3 appearances in 11 years, but I don't lump in the 6-6 season as a mark of accomplishment, particularly since two teams ahead of us in the Coastal were DQ'd. Every single season of Chan's was > .500, and he should get the same benefit of the doubt on an apples to apples comparison.
  • Chan Gailey actually had a marginally better win percentage overall in my math is correct, in an apples to apples comparison, specifically targeting records against FBS/D-1. Georgia Tech didn't start playing FCS until 2004, if I recall correctly. Neither coach lost to FCS. Said another way, toss in a couple FCS opponent for CCG in 2002-2003, all other things remaining the same, does he become an 8-win coach?
Anyway, I doubt this sways many folks, but I think it's relevant, despite my preference for CPJ in the overall comparison.
I was not disappointed to see CCG gone. Especially after CPJ took virtually the same crew of players to Athens in 2008 and beat that other team. The fact that CCG never won that game was a fly in everyone's ointment. But, those guys were almost all CCG recruits. Would they have come to GT if they had known CPJ was going to be the HC?

I will say one thing about CPJ that is both positive and negative. We constantly bellyached about the defense not having enough quality players and his inability to recruit top kids to play here. But, most of us would welcome those defensive numbers over what we see weekly in 2021.
 

Gtswifty81

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
435
I so don't want this to happen..
But in this new age of transfer portal and NIL, if I am Gibbs, I'm gone...
Can't leave six figure $$ on table when you are one blown ACL away from obscurity....
Forget the millions it takes to fire Geoff...get big-time Tech money guy to throw $250k at Gibbs....
I think Gibbs has a good relationship with choice and he knows he’s “the guy” at tech. I wouldn’t pass up that for an uncertain situation elsewhere
 

Oldgoldandwhite

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,762
Collins’ coaching is bad. His contract isn’t. $3m/year is peanuts for P5 coaches (57th out of 62). His buyout has a big step down after year 4. The 7-year guarantee is optics more than anything. Yes, the contract makes it expensive to fire a coach before 4 years, but that’s a good thing. You don’t want to fire head coaches inside of 4 years and this contract reflects that. After year 4, fire away if necessary, the buyout is manageable.

As an FYI, Liberty University which will be joining Conf USA (a non-P5 conference) in 2023 just extended Hugh Freeze for 6 years at $4m/year. People need to recalibrate their perception of college coaching contracts.
I would say Freeze earned his. And they had to lock him down before a bunch of $$$ schools came calling. Of course that wouldn’t stop an SEC school if they really wanted him.
 

GTpdm

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,970
Location
Atlanta GA
II assume all of you are intelligent enough to state your opinion gracefully.
I’m not. That’s why I tend to delete most of my posts before sending them. Re-reading—and thinking about—what you are about to post is an under-appreciated skill.

Edit: I should add that I am not always successful at that endeavor…
 
Last edited:

Lavoisier

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
847
ACC TV money is close to Big12 and Pac12 money (17mil vs around 20mil per school per year) and NCAA tournament gets ACC schools around another 3mil a year each. Adidas contract probably hurts us more than other schools' apparel deals because so little of it is in cash ($200k cash vs $2million Nike gives UGA for example), but we can find money to pay coaches if we work our books better. We don't have any former coaches we are paying any more either.
 

GTcanWINagain

Banned
Messages
152
Not every coach signed the same year Collins was hired got 6 years. Louisville did due to the train wreck Petrino left. Almost all others were 5.

Talked to a guy who heads one of the main executive search firms for coaches and ADs two nights ago at my house. Said the 7 year contract was stupid and not necessary. Also said we are in a tough situation because we don't have the money to compete these days. For the record, we discussed Pastner and he likes (not loves) him. Agreed with me that Pastner "gets it" regarding the fans, his image, press conferences, etc. and Collins just doesn't. Said Pastner is a good guy and really wants him to succeed. Basically said no one else in the country was hiring Collins so why did they give him a 7 year deal. He would've crawled to ATL for the GT job. Stansbury got jobbed (my words, not his).
Of course TStan did, he’s home at his alma mater, comfortable, and is already experienced in shutting down a FBS FB program from his stint as ETSU’s AD!
 

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,491
Not every coach signed the same year Collins was hired got 6 years. Louisville did due to the train wreck Petrino left. Almost all others were 5.

Talked to a guy who heads one of the main executive search firms for coaches and ADs two nights ago at my house. Said the 7 year contract was stupid and not necessary. Also said we are in a tough situation because we don't have the money to compete these days. For the record, we discussed Pastner and he likes (not loves) him. Agreed with me that Pastner "gets it" regarding the fans, his image, press conferences, etc. and Collins just doesn't. Said Pastner is a good guy and really wants him to succeed. Basically said no one else in the country was hiring Collins so why did they give him a 7 year deal. He would've crawled to ATL for the GT job. Stansbury got jobbed (my words, not his).
At this point, I don’t think anything I write is going to change your mind. I do appreciate the insight from your executive search buddy.

I did check the major P5 coaches hired in 2019. Mack Brown stood out as not having six years or more, but the other major candidates I looked at had 6 year contracts. I didn’t include Bowling Green or other smaller schools.

I don’t have a relationship with Stansbury. From what I saw, he wanted time for his hire to make a transition, and so made a contract that made Collins “safe” for four years. He did that. From the buyout perspective, this is a 4 to five 5 contract.

From the perspective of locking a coach in at an affordable salary for 7 years, it’s a 7 year contract. Stansbury got something he wanted at the time.

I’ll split this into two topics—1. the results we got vs 2. what we were seemingly trying to achieve with the contract.

If I were an AD, I’d have expected a 2019 of 3 or 4 wins. With the amount of returning production, that wasn’t going to be good. For 2020, I’d have expected lower bowl eligibility or barely missing a bowl — somewhere between 5-7 or 7-5. The shellacking by Clemson and the lopsided losses to Pitt and BC and Syracuse were signals. If it had been a normal “non-COVID” year, I’d have intervened last year. Even with it being a COVID year, I’d have looked into why we fell apart then.

I’d be stunned if Stansbury didn’t expect a good bit more wins and a better looking team by this point. For all talk of “progression” we’re the second-weakest team in the ACC, salvaged by Duke declining rapidly.

They made some adjustments to fix timeout and game management issues, but those haven’t worked all that well. We’ve had some progress on offense, but not enough. Defense has pulled in more talent at some positions, but has regressed.

Back to the contract, though—if Stansbury was going to lock in a tighter contract, the thing to do would have been to have the buyout step down after year 3 instead of year 4. Looking back, if he doesn’t wish he had done that, then most fans do. Looking ahead though, the contract was written so that they’d have time to get a plan fully into motion and working. In 2018/19, when he signed the contract, he got a contract that made his recruiting-savvy coaching hire safe for 3 full recruiting cycles. The contract looking forward looks a lot better than it does now.

So the contract is designed to give Collins 3 full recruiting cycles to get “higher rated” recruits in and playing. The funding for support services goes with that plan. It’s also designed to lock in an affordable coaching salary for an extended period. It does that.

Where it falls down is that it’s designed to accommodate a couple of painful years while we become a competitive or better team, while we’re currently not showing progress towards becoming that competitive team, and the couple of painful years have been far more painful than they should have been. Stansbury didn’t foresee even a below average transition being this far behind.
 

GTcanWINagain

Banned
Messages
152
ACC TV money is close to Big12 and Pac12 money (17mil vs around 20mil per school per year) and NCAA tournament gets ACC schools around another 3mil a year each. Adidas contract probably hurts us more than other schools' apparel deals because so little of it is in cash ($200k cash vs $2million Nike gives UGA for example), but we can find money to pay coaches if we work our books better. We don't have any former coaches we are paying any more either.
Yeah, I am really get the vibe that some of GT Athletics fans on here are more invested in seeing TStan doesn’t fail vs. Collins succeeds. If TStan is a former teammate or classmate, that’s understandable. Please try to be honest on why you want Collins back in 2022.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,907
Location
Oriental, NC
Yeah, I am really get the vibe that some of GT Athletics fans on here are more invested in seeing TStan doesn’t fail vs. Collins succeeds. If TStan is a former teammate or classmate, that’s understandable. Please try to be honest on why you want Collins back in 2022.
Perhaps I missed a few posts pining for Collins to return, but mostly I hear people saying he will be here because the $$ are not there to let him go. Personally, that seems the most likely thing and I don't want us to be in another extended period paying someone to not coach at GT.
 

Augusta_Jacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
8,099
Location
Augusta, Georgia
I am puzzled by the number of Seniors mentioned above. Our roster on ramblinwreck.com lists these guys as Seniors. Who are they missing? Or, did I miss them?

Djimon Brooks - DL
Kyric McGowan - WR
Tariq Carpenter - DB
Azende Rey - WR
Antonneous Clayton - DL
Bruce Jordan-Swilling - RB
Joseph Macrina - TE
Thomas Culwell - DB
Brent Cimaglia - PK
Kenny Cooper - OL
Ryan Johnson - OL
Kenneth Kirby - OL
Devin Cochran - OL

Seniors may also include Juniors, RS Juniors and RS-Sophomores who graduate and have decided not to return.
 

GTLorenzo

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,553
At this point, I don’t think anything I write is going to change your mind. I do appreciate the insight from your executive search buddy.

I did check the major P5 coaches hired in 2019. Mack Brown stood out as not having six years or more, but the other major candidates I looked at had 6 year contracts. I didn’t include Bowling Green or other smaller schools.

I don’t have a relationship with Stansbury. From what I saw, he wanted time for his hire to make a transition, and so made a contract that made Collins “safe” for four years. He did that. From the buyout perspective, this is a 4 to five 5 contract.

From the perspective of locking a coach in at an affordable salary for 7 years, it’s a 7 year contract. Stansbury got something he wanted at the time.

I’ll split this into two topics—1. the results we got vs 2. what we were seemingly trying to achieve with the contract.

If I were an AD, I’d have expected a 2019 of 3 or 4 wins. With the amount of returning production, that wasn’t going to be good. For 2020, I’d have expected lower bowl eligibility or barely missing a bowl — somewhere between 5-7 or 7-5. The shellacking by Clemson and the lopsided losses to Pitt and BC and Syracuse were signals. If it had been a normal “non-COVID” year, I’d have intervened last year. Even with it being a COVID year, I’d have looked into why we fell apart then.

I’d be stunned if Stansbury didn’t expect a good bit more wins and a better looking team by this point. For all talk of “progression” we’re the second-weakest team in the ACC, salvaged by Duke declining rapidly.

They made some adjustments to fix timeout and game management issues, but those haven’t worked all that well. We’ve had some progress on offense, but not enough. Defense has pulled in more talent at some positions, but has regressed.

Back to the contract, though—if Stansbury was going to lock in a tighter contract, the thing to do would have been to have the buyout step down after year 3 instead of year 4. Looking back, if he doesn’t wish he had done that, then most fans do. Looking ahead though, the contract was written so that they’d have time to get a plan fully into motion and working. In 2018/19, when he signed the contract, he got a contract that made his recruiting-savvy coaching hire safe for 3 full recruiting cycles. The contract looking forward looks a lot better than it does now.

So the contract is designed to give Collins 3 full recruiting cycles to get “higher rated” recruits in and playing. The funding for support services goes with that plan. It’s also designed to lock in an affordable coaching salary for an extended period. It does that.

Where it falls down is that it’s designed to accommodate a couple of painful years while we become a competitive or better team, while we’re currently not showing progress towards becoming that competitive team, and the couple of painful years have been far more painful than they should have been. Stansbury didn’t foresee even a below average transition being this far behind.

Understand your points. The main thing that is the sticking point to so many is the fact that it is 7 years and the buyout doesn't really drop until after Year 4 and all of this was for an unproven coach. As my contact noted, there was no need for this length of a contract. Perhaps if he had dropped the buyout significantly after Year 3, that would make it more palatable. If you were getting Saban (I know, I know...) or someone proven, no one likely bats too much of an eye at a 7 year deal. The fact that Collins was unproven, and I presume pushed by the big money guys, and then came in and made error after error is what makes it look so bad.

Maybe Collins was the best that we could do (doubt it). But I would've preferred hiring a proven coach from a lower level that had a history of winning. Collins is, in my opinion, a used car salesmen who is WAY in over his head and Stansbury went for it hook, line and sinker. Now he has to figure out how to fix it, new coordinators, new head coach, someone to hold Collins' hand at press conferences and on the sidelines, etc.
 
Top