Mostly “Fire Geoff Collins”, some reminiscing, maybe bourbon or other distractions

bke1984

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,420
I was responding to the post about the UVA game.
Ahh. My bad. Well yeah, we had a chance and that’s great. And I would have loved it if we won. But I’m not ready to say we played a great game up there and celebrate it as a really close game. Would have gone down as somewhat of a miracle win had it transpired.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,211
When we hired Josh Pastner, there was a thought that Pastner wasn't the best basketball X's and O's coach, but he would recruit at a level where either GT did well and Pastner would move on leaving a full cupboard for the next coach, or he would get fired and the cupboard would be full enough to make the GT job attractive to other coaches.

Maybe that's what we get with CGC. Say what you will about the wins and losses and what's happened on the field, but the one thing you can't deny is CGC has improved our roster and GT's presence. There will be a LOT of guys from CGC's recruiting classes that will make All ACC and/or get drafted. He's signed and recruited a lot of guys with a LOT of ability. This roster will be a LOT more attractive if we have to hire another coach than it was when CGC was hired. That's not a slight to CPJ, that's just good work by CGC signing high level talent.
 

alagold

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,718
Location
Huntsville,Al
It would be interesting to know WHO is making the calls during the game.Is it GC telling the OC and DC or basically leaving them alone.Are the asst coaches advising the OC/DC?
 

bobongo

Helluva Engineer
Messages
7,543
This is where I fall. Right now has nothing to do with CPJ or Elliott or Monken. It has nothing to do with a play here or there or a turnover. It has nothing to do with recruiting. It has nothing to do with year 1 or year 2. It has to do with the coaching. I’ve stated I now judge Collins on 60:00 to 0:00. I actually don’t mind the marketing and some of the rah rah stuff. But that doesn’t matter. What we’ve seen in year 3 from 60:00 to 0:00 is a total failure of coaching. Period. You bring in another coach and this team has the players to win 7-8 games. What we’ve seen in 3 years of his coaching can’t be fixed. He is what he is. Our only decision is how much do we want to pay in buyout?
What can you say about a head coach making $2.8 million a year who obviously needs a remedial course in when to call time out?
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,985
I like choice and like a few others on the staff but just saying he like some of the others lacks the coaching experience right now. There taking their lumps right now but when they get more in game experience on a power 5 level coaches they will better understand how to adjust too them. We need to realize the coaches are learning just like the players are. The players know that and that’s why they have not quit on the staff yet.
Do you realize how what you wrote sounds? "coaches are learning just like the players". What recruit would want to commit to a program where the coaches don't know how to coach? Are you seriously saying that the coaches are recruiting as 'We can develop you into an NFL player', but they don't even know yet how to coach them into NCAA players?

Also, do you seriously believe that ANY college program should hire a full staff of coaches who "are learning just like the players"? You can have one or two on staff to train. You can't have a full staff.

I don't buy that the entire staff is still learning how to coach. Collins has been an NCAA coach since 2001, and was a GA two years before that. He has been a DC for about 10 years. He has been a head coach for 5 years now. At what point in a 50 year life span and 22 years of coaching NCAA football do you learn game/clock/time management? There are a lot of people in the stands who have never coached organized football that knew timeouts should have been called in the BC game.

I am not trying to simply bash the coach. Maybe the system of communication they are using is causing the game management to be very poor. However, even if that is the case it has been a constant problem for three years now. Whatever the problem with game management is, it needs to be fixed very soon. Maybe pay O'Leary to sit in the press box with headphones and tell these "inexperienced" (in your words) coaches when to call timeout, when to go for two, when to go on fourth down, etc. I understand that players will sometimes make mistakes. I understand that players will sometimes be physically outmatched. What I refuse to accept is that the coaches seem incapable of getting player substitutions made, that coaches seem incapable of getting play calls in to the team, that coaches seem to be incapable of looking at time/clock/down/distance/score/etc. with any understanding of football. They are not student-athletes, they are well paid professionals. I expect better.
 

Bonaire41

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
238
Do you realize how what you wrote sounds? "coaches are learning just like the players". What recruit would want to commit to a program where the coaches don't know how to coach? Are you seriously saying that the coaches are recruiting as 'We can develop you into an NFL player', but they don't even know yet how to coach them into NCAA players?

Also, do you seriously believe that ANY college program should hire a full staff of coaches who "are learning just like the players"? You can have one or two on staff to train. You can't have a full staff.

I don't buy that the entire staff is still learning how to coach. Collins has been an NCAA coach since 2001, and was a GA two years before that. He has been a DC for about 10 years. He has been a head coach for 5 years now. At what point in a 50 year life span and 22 years of coaching NCAA football do you learn game/clock/time management? There are a lot of people in the stands who have never coached organized football that knew timeouts should have been called in the BC game.

I am not trying to simply bash the coach. Maybe the system of communication they are using is causing the game management to be very poor. However, even if that is the case it has been a constant problem for three years now. Whatever the problem with game management is, it needs to be fixed very soon. Maybe pay O'Leary to sit in the press box with headphones and tell these "inexperienced" (in your words) coaches when to call timeout, when to go for two, when to go on fourth down, etc. I understand that players will sometimes make mistakes. I understand that players will sometimes be physically outmatched. What I refuse to accept is that the coaches seem incapable of getting player substitutions made, that coaches seem incapable of getting play calls in to the team, that coaches seem to be incapable of looking at time/clock/down/distance/score/etc. with any understanding of football. They are not student-athletes, they are well paid professionals. I expect better.
There learning on a power 5 level. Like I said other than Collins and key they are not much experience on staff that’s coach on a power 5 team. Look up their bios on rambling wreck.com. If you don’t think the coaching staff is getting out coached the last 3 years then you must have not been watching. I believe in time they will get there but it takes time. Yes Collins should have gotten a better coaching staff but he got what he could afford.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,985
There learning on a power 5 level. Like I said other than Collins and key they are not much experience on staff that’s coach on a power 5 team. Look up their bios on rambling wreck.com. If you don’t think the coaching staff is getting out coached the last 3 years then you must have not been watching. I believe in time they will get there but it takes time. Yes Collins should have gotten a better coaching staff but he got what he could afford.
They have been outcoached the last 3 years. However, you make it seem as though fundamentals of football change between G5 and P5 football. When you should call a timeout is no different in FCS, G5, or P5 football. When you should go for two is no different at any of those levels. Getting a play call in to the defense before the opposing offense snaps the ball is not something that only becomes important at the P5 level. IF the coaching issues were just that they weren't keeping up with adjustments, maybe that could be passed off as learning at a higher level of football. HOWEVER, this coaching staff is having problems with things that are not an issue at the high school level. Not an exaggeration. High school coaches regularly substitute players. High school coaches regularly send play calls in to the offense and defense. High school coaches regularly run two minute offenses/defenses and manage the clock. It isn't some high level of coaching that I am complaining about. It is fundamental football smarts that people regularly learn while playing high school football.
 

Bonaire41

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
238
They have been outcoached the last 3 years. However, you make it seem as though fundamentals of football change between G5 and P5 football. When you should call a timeout is no different in FCS, G5, or P5 football. When you should go for two is no different at any of those levels. Getting a play call in to the defense before the opposing offense snaps the ball is not something that only becomes important at the P5 level. IF the coaching issues were just that they weren't keeping up with adjustments, maybe that could be passed off as learning at a higher level of football. HOWEVER, this coaching staff is having problems with things that are not an issue at the high school level. Not an exaggeration. High school coaches regularly substitute players. High school coaches regularly send play calls in to the offense and defense. High school coaches regularly run two minute offenses/defenses and manage the clock. It isn't some high level of coaching that I am complaining about. It is fundamental football smarts that people regularly learn while playing high school football.
[/QUOTE
What do you think the solution should be. I totally agree with what you said.
 

Bonaire41

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
238
They have been outcoached the last 3 years. However, you make it seem as though fundamentals of football change between G5 and P5 football. When you should call a timeout is no different in FCS, G5, or P5 football. When you should go for two is no different at any of those levels. Getting a play call in to the defense before the opposing offense snaps the ball is not something that only becomes important at the P5 level. IF the coaching issues were just that they weren't keeping up with adjustments, maybe that could be passed off as learning at a higher level of football. HOWEVER, this coaching staff is having problems with things that are not an issue at the high school level. Not an exaggeration. High school coaches regularly substitute players. High school coaches regularly send play calls in to the offense and defense. High school coaches regularly run two minute offenses/defenses and manage the clock. It isn't some high level of coaching that I am complaining about. It is fundamental football smarts that people regularly learn while playing high school football.
I totally agree with you. What is the solution you think?
 

Jmonty71

Banned
Messages
2,156
I am not so forgiving, forgetful and fooled, as many. I see Collins as a great salesman, selling a bad product. Yeah, he can recruit. Yeah, we are getting better talent. However; talent only goes so far. I really hope Collins gets it together. However; I have 0 faith in him. People that use talking points and baseless narratives are full of crap. There is a big difference between those that know and those that throw BS out there. Collins is a BS thrower. His lack of knowledge will catch up and by the time people realize it, it will be too late. To me, his first big test is how he handles our inept coordinators. If I see both return, next year, that will affirm my assessment.
 

Tech Lawyer

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
204
Message to Coach Collins. The whole Defensive coaching staff needs to talk about player production. I don't care about player seniority. But that is absolutely why some guys are still on the field. I thought #40 showed some flashes and needs to be on the field more. Also, the emphasis on long defensive backs has backfired on us. I suggest we rethink our recruiting to go after quicker guys. Chris Milton was listed at 5'11'. Jemea Thomas was listed at 5'10". I know the twins got beat over the top some by longer receivers, but they were usually right with the receiver. The twins were ballhawks too. The smaller guys have quick hips. Does this coaching staff have the ability to make these kind adjustments? It's not looking good so far. Coach Collins needs a fresh perspective on our whole defense.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,985
I totally agree with you. What is the solution you think?
I don't really know. I don't know how a coach "learns" those things more than 20 years into coaching. The only thing I can think of is what I posted earlier. Get someone like O'Leary as an "analyst" in the press box with a set of headphones. Turn that level of decision making over to him. (when to call timeout, when to go for fourth/two, etc.) Get him to review how the team is making play calling decisions and how those play calls are getting transferred to the team. (I have no clue how they are doing that now, but it is taking forever for a decision to be made and/or to get the call to the sideline and then to the players.)

I might still complain about play calling, etc. But if they were executing the fundamentals better, I would feel much better. There is a level of organization and accountability that is missing.
 

Augusta_Jacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
8,093
Location
Augusta, Georgia
I for one have a hard time excusing the game management stuff. This is a guy who has been around football for decades, and the clock management and timeout stuff is something that most avid football fans understand well enough to run circles around him right now. If he doesn’t have it figured out at this point then I’m not sure he ever will.

There is a vast gulf between knowledge and performance under pressure. I would imagine he knows what he should do, but in the heat of the moment he is making mistakes. I saw that all the time in the military. It's why we train so hard in peacetime to make sure when the chips are down we make good, sound decisions. HCs often have to grow into these things. Dabo sure did.
 

Bonaire41

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
238
Message to Coach Collins. The whole Defensive coaching staff needs to talk about player production. I don't care about player seniority. But that is absolutely why some guys are still on the field. I thought #40 showed some flashes and needs to be on the field more. Also, the emphasis on long defensive backs has backfired on us. I suggest we rethink our recruiting to go after quicker guys. Chris Milton was listed at 5'11'. Jemea Thomas was listed at 5'10". I know the twins got beat over the top some by longer receivers, but they were usually right with the receiver. The twins were ballhawks too. The smaller guys have quick hips. Does this coaching staff have the ability to make these kind adjustments? It's not looking good so far. Coach Collins needs a fresh perspective on our whole defense.
Message to Coach Collins. The whole Defensive coaching staff needs to talk about player production. I don't care about player seniority. But that is absolutely why some guys are still on the field. I thought #40 showed some flashes and needs to be on the field more. Also, the emphasis on long defensive backs has backfired on us. I suggest we rethink our recruiting to go after quicker guys. Chris Milton was listed at 5'11'. Jemea Thomas was listed at 5'10". I know the twins got beat over the top some by longer receivers, but they were usually right with the receiver. The twins were ballhawks too. The smaller guys have quick hips. Does this coaching staff have the ability to make these kind adjustments? It's not looking good so far. Coach Collins needs a fresh perspective on our whole defense.
Jemea Thomas is one of my all time favorite jacket up there up Kelly Rhino. They both were badass!!!
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,985
There is a vast gulf between knowledge and performance under pressure. I would imagine he knows what he should do, but in the heat of the moment he is making mistakes. I saw that all the time in the military. It's why we train so hard in peacetime to make sure when the chips are down we make good, sound decisions. HCs often have to grow into these things. Dabo sure did.
I would expect that 5 years as a HC would be enough to calm the pressure situations. If it isn't, I don't know that any amount of experience would be.

What would your solution be? It would be difficult to have something like simulated war games to practice those decisions. I understand a lot of coaching staffs meet, discuss, and write down time/down/distance/etc scenarios so that they are all on the same page when one of those scenarios happens during a game. I don't know if CGC has been doing that. Some people just freeze during high pressure situations, if that is the case I don't know if it can be corrected. I certainly hope they come up with some method of correcting those mistakes next year.
 

GTcanWINagain

Banned
Messages
152
I am not so forgiving, forgetful and fooled, as many. I see Collins as a great salesman, selling a bad product. Yeah, he can recruit. Yeah, we are getting better talent. However; talent only goes so far. I really hope Collins gets it together. However; I have 0 faith in him. People that use talking points and baseless narratives are full of crap. There is a big difference between those that know and those that throw BS out there. Collins is a BS thrower. His lack of knowledge will catch up and by the time people realize it, it will be too late. To me, his first big test is how he handles our inept coordinators. If I see both return, next year, that will affirm my assessment.
He has already mishandled. It should have been taken care of by him before his hand got forced.
 

Jmonty71

Banned
Messages
2,156
There is a vast gulf between knowledge and performance under pressure. I would imagine he knows what he should do, but in the heat of the moment he is making mistakes. I saw that all the time in the military. It's why we train so hard in peacetime to make sure when the chips are down we make good, sound decisions. HCs often have to grow into these things. Dabo sure did.
I think comparing Collins to Dabo is a stretch. I don't see the similarities. Dabo was high energy in games and worked refs.... Collins just looks lost and clueless and doesn't jump all over refs, for bad calls. Unless I have missed it. I guess both are good salesmen. One had a good product and surrounded himself with good coordinators, the other apparently hasn't. I think Collins is more interested in his image and culture than he is in winning. I get it... He is trying to bring a certain culture to GT. However; that culture isn't equaling wins. I didn't like the Collins hire, from day one. To date, Collins hasn't done much to sway my initial opinion. You are right about military and doing something, to where people are ready, when crap hits the fan. But, sadly not all military people were/are built that way. I recall my sergeant, folding like a chair, in 91, during a fire fight. I just don't have the same optimism regarding Collins. I see a man that rather blame, than take responsibility. I also dislike gimmicky catch phrases. In my line of work, its a cover for a poor product.
 
Top