Khalid Moore in the Transfer Portal

Northeast Stinger

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Ok, I gotta be honest, when I read this my first thought was "uh oh, we're dealin' with a bad a**" :ROFLMAO:

Sorry, Mr. Naismith.

Anyways, this isn't what we're talking about. I was simply answering the poster's question. The answer is 'usage' refers to offense only. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't.

As an aside, I do not subscribe to all these metrics in telling me what I'm seeing on the basketball court so we agree more than disagree here.
Hey, don’t back down now, you got him on the ropes.
 

kg01

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I also had to look this up. After four years of HS basketball and two in college, I wondered how this escaped me.

So, Khalid was not the focus of our offense? That is essentially what this number says. Surprised? He did not take as many shots or free throws or commit turnovers (well, maybe this) as Devoe or Sturdivant. That was not his role. To my way of looking at basketball this is a worthless number. It says more about how the coaches built the team than his ability. But, I relent. His Usg% is not great.

Honestly, I hate the stat. People who want to try and sound smart toss out 'usage' when they want to impeach a guy's scoring stats. It's a realm of basketball analysis I literally hate buuuuttt....

... that doesn't mean we should completely ignore it conceptually. You'd think a bad a** such as yourself would know what usage is. Come on, o. Get your basketball weight up. :sneaky:

(psst, how'm I doin' @Northeast Stinger ? ;))
 

lv20gt

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Usage rate is not about being good or bad. A missed shot contributes as much as a made shot does. A missed FTs contributes as much as a made one. Fewer turnovers reduces your usage rate and is a good thing. Jose as a senior had a usage rate of 20.4%which was behind all three of Moses, Devoe, and Ush and similar to what Smith had this year. All that means is relatively speaking he didn't shoot that much, didn't take that many FTs, and didn't turn the ball over that much compared to how much he played. He was extremely good for us despite the low usage because he both facilitated the offense, leading in assist rate, was extremely efficient in his shooting opportunities, and being the extremely good defensively.

Moore was not a good offensive player for us. By any metric. His usage rate is not a cause of that but rather a result of it. The fact he played so much despite a low usage rate is a sign that he, like Jose, contributed in other ways. With that being said, he can be a useful piece in the right situation. I think that was us two years ago. I don't think that was us last year or this upcoming one, barring additions. Last year we had Mike and Ush being high usage players, but none of our options at the 1 or 5 were likely to be once Bubba got hurt. We really couldn't afford to have a third low usage player on the court and we tried to keep Moore in there but have Coleman/Kelly by going small. The problem is that by going small we mitigated the defensive impact of both Ush and Moore to some degree because they were defending out of position. Realistically you don't want to bench a senior who can contribute but by team composition Moore really shouldn't have been playing nearly as much as he did. Not because he wasn't able to contribute but because he couldn't contribute what the team needed.

FWIW Coleman had a similar usage rate to Moore. Not because he was bad offensively, he was actually really good offensively, but because he simply wasn't aggressive in either getting his shot off the dribble or through off ball movement. Where Moore didn't need a higher usage rate, Coleman did, and when put into context the usage rate gives a good picture of the issues both had.

So, Khalid was not the focus of our offense? That is essentially what this number says. Surprised?

No. And the vast majority of the time stats, when accurately understood and contextualized, shouldn't surprise.

To my way of looking at basketball this is a worthless number. It says more about how the coaches built the team than his ability.

Do you think ability isn't the primary factor in how a coach builds the team? Moore wasn't low usage by accident. You could argue that for someone like Coleman, where the difference between his offensive shooting numbers and his usage indicates an issue with his ability to generate opportunities which is fairly common for a freshman. But for Moore, his low usage was intentional, and it was based on the fact that he wasn't good at shooting, driving, or creating for others.
 

ChristoGT

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I haven't really ever looked for this online anywhere, so this may be a stupid question, but . . .
Is there not already some advanced metrics in basketball, similar to say baseball, for the defensive value of a player? Seems like there could be a "points saved" metric (via block, steal, good D, etc.) or other defense-related metrics to derive a defensive value. This could be added to the "usage" number to get an overall value rating of a player (similar to WAR, dWAR, and oWAR in baseball).
 

lv20gt

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Is there not already some advanced metrics in basketball, similar to say baseball, for the defensive value of a player? Seems like there could be a "points saved" metric (via block, steal, good D, etc.) or other defense-related metrics to derive a defensive value. This could be added to the "usage" number to get an overall value rating of a player (similar to WAR, dWAR, and oWAR in baseball).

Yes but they need to be taken with a big bag of salt.


This has some similar stats like Drtg and Defensive win shares.

What makes basketball hard is the amount of fluid plays rather than discrete ones. In baseball, a ball his hit to a spot, and there is usually a fielder who is expected to handle it and the play has a clear outcome. All that can be tracked and the like.

In Basketball it isn't quite as clear cut as things like playing great ball denial defense is often not quantified nor is things like great on ball defense forcing the opposing player to pass the ball off. That and things like switches on defense make it harder to quantify plays as discrete things and so to have expected outcomes to compare the actual outcomes to.

I believe the NBA tracks it a bit better as I've seen even match up related stats but I don't think I've seen similar in college.
 

kg01

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I haven't really ever looked for this online anywhere, so this may be a stupid question, but . . .
Is there not already some advanced metrics in basketball, similar to say baseball, for the defensive value of a player? Seems like there could be a "points saved" metric (via block, steal, good D, etc.) or other defense-related metrics to derive a defensive value. This could be added to the "usage" number to get an overall value rating of a player (similar to WAR, dWAR, and oWAR in baseball).

There are several but, imho, they're not reliable. They're heavily dependent on the values you decide to put in the formula and there are "stats" that don't necessarily equate to an actual good defender.

Obviously blocks and steals fall in that category. In many ways, a player that gets a lot of steals isn't actually a good defender. Rebounds is another. Many players rebound well because they're not guarding their man or atleast aren't fully committed to challenging shots, etc.

That said, basketball people still rely heavily on defensive metrics because of the new wave of analytics that tries to quantify everything. Its bizarre, imho.
 

lv20gt

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That said, basketball people still rely heavily on defensive metrics because of the new wave of analytics that tries to quantify everything. Its bizarre, imho.

Not really that bizarre. The alternative is to rely on the eye test which is horribly inconsistent at best.
 

kg01

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Not really that bizarre. The alternative is to rely on the eye test which is horribly inconsistent at best.

It's bizarre because they've all decided to suspend disbelief to allow themselves to continue using these metrics, which shouldn't be relied upon to the extent that they are.

The eye test is much more reliable when it comes to determining which guys are good defenders.
 

lv20gt

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The eye test is much more reliable when it comes to determining which guys are good defenders.


Who's eye test. Because your eye test vs mine might tell us different things.

Just look at the "eye test" people use on the football board regarding Sims.

Defensive stats are flawed for sure. But the eye test is horrible.
 

kg01

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Who's eye test. Because your eye test vs mine might tell us different things.

Just look at the "eye test" people use on the football board regarding Sims.

Defensive stats are flawed for sure. But the eye test is horrible.

Of course there are some people that don't know what TF they're looking at. But, for people that have a dang clue, the eye test works better.
 

MidtownJacket

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I think the real question we should be asking ourselves is what sorts of metrics should we use to quantify a person's ability to use their eyes testily

Steve Brule Reaction GIF by MOODMAN
 

lv20gt

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Of course there are some people that don't know what TF they're looking at. But, for people that have a dang clue, the eye test works better.

The problem is the people that don't know what TF they are looking at don't know that they don't know. And those that do have a dang clue aren't likely to resort to justifying their conclusion by just saying "by the eye test". They'll go over the actual specifics of what they see to justify it.
 

GaTech4ever

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Khalid is having a great season so far for a 7-1 Fordham team in the A10. In 30 min per game, he’s averaging 14.4/5.0/1.2 on 55/30/70. Second on the team in scoring and rebounding, and third in assists. He put up 16/10/3/3 in a win against Maine last night. SO happy for him!
 

78pike

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Khalid is having a great season so far for a 7-1 Fordham team in the A10. In 30 min per game, he’s averaging 14.4/5.0/1.2 on 55/30/70. Second on the team in scoring and rebounding, and third in assists. He put up 16/10/3/3 in a win against Maine last night. SO happy for him!
I haven't seen him play. Is he hitting outside shots - because he was never able to do that consistently here. Or are they offensive rebound put backs and other low post scores?
 

lv20gt

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I haven't seen him play. Is he hitting outside shots - because he was never able to do that consistently here. Or are they offensive rebound put backs and other low post scores?
Hitting ~30% on 2.5 attempts per game.
 

lv20gt

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That would make him our best shooter it think.

Not even close. For example, Kelly is seen as greatly struggling from 3.

He's shooting 30% on 4.7 attempts per game.

Deebo is at 37% on 5 attempts per game.

Sturdivant is at 43% on 2 attempts per game

Terry is at 35% on 3.3 attempts per game.
 

tsrich

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Khalid is having a great season so far for a 7-1 Fordham team in the A10. In 30 min per game, he’s averaging 14.4/5.0/1.2 on 55/30/70. Second on the team in scoring and rebounding, and third in assists. He put up 16/10/3/3 in a win against Maine last night. SO happy for him!
Sounds like that level of play is better suited for him, plus I'm guessing their coaching staff is putting him into better positions to succeed.
 

lv20gt

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I assume you mean from the 3 point line because that wouldn't equate to 14.4 ppg. Sounds like most of his points are under the basket.

Correct. It looks like he is hitting enough 3s to keep teams relatively honest, but that's not really how he is scoring. I haven't watched him play this year so I don't know if it's more post up, drives, Orebs, defense etc.
 
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