JT's Fumble late in 4th Qtr vs. UGA

[RLR]

This vines is even more damaging to the SEC refs... he was thinking about this pass....

So intent is not a factor, but what JT was thinking is? Just curious, what do you think JT is thinking here? I really hope that wasn't the result if he was trying to pass it. I think this supports pump fake more than anything else, but I also see how it could be ruled a pass (I said from the outset that the "right" call is prob. pass)

Also, unless that video came from a gopro on the ref's hat, and he's able to process the play at that speed, it's really not relevant to the accuracy of the call. It's an imperfect game...so don't put yourself in a position where the game is decided by an imperfect aspect of it.

 

[LongforDodd]

Incomplete pass... they never look for what the ball is doing on these plays... only the hand.

I see JT having completed his forward throwing motion....ever so slightly....and the ball coming loose past the completion of that forward motion... while tucking the ball.

 

[Longestday]

I am trying to show an eligible receiver down field and that he went to make this pass and it was very short.

Look closer.... he does not lose the ball while tucking.

I believe he really thought about throwing the ball and changed his mind too late... again, intent should not be counted and only the rules as stated applied. He was throwing to an eligible receiver down field and the pass was incomplete.

 

[AE 87]

He dropped a pump-fake or the ball got stuck in his hands while changing his mind on the pass. The point is that we just don't know and that the refs are supposed to err on the side of calling it a pass.

 

[Faulkner475]

Ya, I guess my argument based on the reality of that situation doesn't hold up when it's viewed in slow motion & we know what to look for, when to look for it, and from the perfect angle.

Isn't that exactly what replay review is for?

 

[chrsw003]

Justin was deffinetly not trying to pass the ball, he was pump faking and the ball slipped out. I don't know how it should of been called, but if we were on D I would be pissed if they called incomplete pass bc he was not trying to pass it. We won so all is good.

 

[AlabamaBuzz]

You can be pissed about the call if it were against you, but the rule is, if the arm is going forward, and the ball comes loose, it is to be considered an incomplete pass...bottom line. This play was so obvious in my mind, and I still do not understand it not being called correctly... If the refs wanted to penalize us for intentional grounding, I would have been o.k. with that, but certainly NOT a fumble.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

You can be pissed about the call if it were against you, but the rule is, if the arm is going forward, and the ball comes loose, it is to be considered an incomplete pass...bottom line. This play was so obvious in my mind, and I still do not understand it not being called correctly... If the refs wanted to penalize us for intentional grounding, I would have been o.k. with that, but certainly NOT a fumble.

If it's so obvious then why did both the SEC field officials and the ACC replay officials rule it a fumble?

 

[AlabamaBuzz]

If it's so obvious then why did both the SEC field officials and the ACC replay officials rule it a fumble?

Are you 100% sure that the refs in the booth were ACC? I have heard both ways. Also, PJ said the head of the ACC officials told him it was a clear cut incompletion...

PLUS, I don't think there is precedent using the replay process to overrule such a play....at least, I have never seen it before.

 

[Boomergump]

I have seen plays just like this one many times over the course of multiple seasons in the NFL and college. It is ALWAYS ruled incomplete. Having said that, I have no idea if this ruling helped us or hurt us in the long run. There are just so many possibilities as to how it affected the flow of the game, game clock, field position, TOs, FG tries, punts, or otherwise.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Well, here's the NFL rule that pertains to this situation (couldn't find the college rule)

(b) If, after an intentional forward movement of his hand, the passer loses possession of the ball as he is
attempting to tuck it back toward his body, it is a forward pass. If the player loses possession after he
has tucked the ball into his body, it is a fumble.

(c) If the passer loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a fumble.

The refs must have ruled that the play was an example of (c), not (b).

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Are you 100% sure that the refs in the booth were ACC? I have heard both ways. Also, PJ said the head of the ACC officials told him it was a clear cut incompletion...

PLUS, I don't think there is precedent using the replay process to overrule such a play....at least, I have never seen it before.

No, he said the ACC official said if there was any doubt, err on the side of incompletion.

 

[yellojello]

If it's so obvious then why did both the SEC field officials and the ACC replay officials rule it a fumble?

FWIW, the booth officials were also SEC.

Also, the ACC head of officials said that if it remotely resembles a pass, it should be called an incompletion.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

FWIW, the booth officials were also SEC.

Also, the ACC head of officials said that if it remotely resembles a pass, it should be called an incompletion.

It didn't resemble a pass at all, it was a pump fake, that is something we all agree on. What's not in agreement is what is the correct call when a qb fumbles a pump fake.

 

[AlabamaBuzz]

No, he said the ACC official said if there was any doubt, err on the side of incompletion.

Well, to me, there was DEFINITELY doubt on whether his arm was moving forward when the ball started to come loose, so in MY opinion, which you will NOT change, it was a fumble.

 

[DTGT]

It didn't resemble a pass at all, it was a pump fake, that is something we all agree on. What's not in agreement is what is the correct call when a qb fumbles a pump fake.

It didn't even look like a pump fake. It looked like he intended to throw it, but saw that it was well defended and changed his mind mid-throw. He didn't even start to tuck the ball.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Well, to me, there was DEFINITELY doubt on whether his arm was moving forward when the ball started to come loose, so in MY opinion, which you will NOT change, it was a fumble.

That's not what I said. The arm moves forward in a pump fake, too. Anybody who says that wasn't 100% a pump fake is either lying to themselves or doesn't know the difference between a pass attempt and and a pump fake.

 

[AlabamaBuzz]

That's not what I said. The arm moves forward in a pump fake, too. Anybody who says that wasn't 100% a pump fake is either lying to themselves or doesn't know the difference between a pass attempt and and a pump fake.

Agree to disagree. It might have been a pump fake; it might not have been. But either way, ball came loose while arm moving forward in a "passing" like motion. Incomplete pass.

 

[yellojello]

It didn't resemble a pass at all, it was a pump fake, that is something we all agree on. What's not in agreement is what is the correct call when a qb fumbles a pump fake.

See page FR-35, Section 19 of the NCAA Football Handbook:

ARTICLE 2. a. A pass is forward if the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official or anything else beyond the spot where the ball is released. All other passes are backward passes. When in question a pass thrown in or behind the neutral zone is forward rather than a backward.
b. When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm starts the forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-
2-I).
c. When in question, the ball is passed and not fumbled during an attempted forward pass.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Agree to disagree. It might have been a pump fake; it might not have been. But either way, ball came loose while arm moving forward in a "passing" like motion. Incomplete pass.

No buts about it, even Paul Johnson said it was a pump fake. In fact he said JT had no business pump faking when everybody knew there's no way we're throwing the ball there.