JT's Fumble late in 4th Qtr vs. UGA

[dressedcheeseside]

See page FR-35, Section 19 of the NCAA Football Handbook:

ARTICLE 2. a. A pass is forward if the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official or anything else beyond the spot where the ball is released. All other passes are backward passes. When in question a pass thrown in or behind the neutral zone is forward rather than a backward.
b. When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm starts the forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-
2-I).
c. When in question, the ball is passed and not fumbled during an attempted forward pass.

All that's fine and dandy, but none of it addresses a dropped pump fake.

 

[yellojello]

All that's fine and dandy, but none of it addresses a dropped pump fake.

Based on the rules, a forward pass is defined based on where the ball first strikes the ground, player or official. It is not defined based on intent.

BTW, the rulebook doesn't even define a pump fake. You know why? Because it is irrelevant. The ball is either passed forward, backward or it is not passed. There is no provision needed for a "pump fake".

 

[Longestday]

Are we looking at the same video?

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Based on the rules, a forward pass is defined based on where the ball first strikes the ground, player or official. It is not defined based on intent.

BTW, the rulebook doesn't even define a pump fake. You know why? Because it is irrelevant. The ball is either passed forward, backward or it is not passed. There is no provision needed for a "pump fake".

I read the same rules and didn't get that interpretation. The part highlighted is used to differentiate between a forward and backward pass when it is clear that it is one or the other.

We all know what a pump fake is and what it looks like, be real. It is not an attempt at a forward pass. Rather, it is used to make the defense think you are attempting a forward pass, hence the word "fake" in pump fake.

 

[yellojello]

I read the same rules and didn't get that interpretation. The part highlighted is used to differentiate between a forward and backward pass when it is clear that it is one or the other.

We all know what a pump fake is and what it looks like, be real. It is not an attempt at a forward pass. Rather, it is used to make the defense think you are attempting a forward pass, hence the word "fake" in pump fake.

I know and you know what a pump fake is. But if the rulebook doesn't define it, it doesn't exist. Sorry. Frankly, it's not needed. Like I said, a ball is either passed forward, passed backward or not passed.

Also part (c) in bold above, pointedly talks about fumbles.

The pump fake is a nomenclature to define what happens on the field, just like the 4-3 is a nomenclature. Just because nomenclature exists, doesn't mean it needs to be part of the rulebook.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

What if JT was running with the ball like a loaf of bread and it slips out when his arm is moving forward, is that an incomplete pass, too?

 

[AE 87]

See page FR-35, Section 19 of the NCAA Football Handbook:

ARTICLE 2. a. A pass is forward if the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official or anything else beyond the spot where the ball is released. All other passes are backward passes. When in question a pass thrown in or behind the neutral zone is forward rather than a backward.
b. When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm starts the forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-
2-I).
c. When in question, the ball is passed and not fumbled during an attempted forward pass.

All that's fine and dandy, but none of it addresses a dropped pump fake.

Based on the rules, a forward pass is defined based on where the ball first strikes the ground, player or official. It is not defined based on intent.

BTW, the rulebook doesn't even define a pump fake. You know why? Because it is irrelevant. The ball is either passed forward, backward or it is not passed. There is no provision needed for a "pump fake".

I know yall are enjoying your fascinating "Yes it is"-"No it isn't" conversation.

In my opinion, it was intended as a pump fake, but cheese, you're missing an important part of the rule:

any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm starts the forward pass.​

A pump fake is an "intentional forward movement of his hand" from which the ball leaves in a forward direction. Regardless of whether or not he intended to fake, the ball came out.

So, I agree with cheese that JT was trying to pump fake, but I agree jello that it should've been ruled an incomplete pass.

 

[yellojello]

What if JT was running with the ball like a loaf of bread and it slips out when his arm is moving forward, is that an incomplete pass, too?

See AE87's response above.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I know yall are enjoying your fascinating "Yes it is"-"No it isn't" conversation.

In my opinion, it was intended as a pump fake, but cheese, you're missing an important part of the rule:

any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm starts the forward pass.​

A pump fake is an "intentional forward movement of his hand" from which the ball leaves in a forward direction. Regardless of whether or not he intended to fake, the ball came out.

So, I agree with cheese that JT was trying to pump fake, but I agree jello that it should've been ruled an incomplete pass.

I respectfully disagree and provide this evidence:

You omitted part of the rule in your explanation, here's the rule in it's entirety:

When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm starts the forward pass.

This says to me that intention to pass the ball must accompany any movement of the hand or arm for it to be ruled a pass attempt.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

See AE87's response above.

OK so you think that counts as a pass, too? really?

 

[yellojello]

I respectfully disagree and provide this evidence:

You omitted part of the rule in your explanation, here's the rule in it's entirety:

When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm starts the forward pass.

This says to me that intention to pass the ball must accompany any movement of the hand or arm for it to be ruled a pass attempt.

"Pass it forward" is defined based on the rules in the rulebook. Not based on intent. If they started making rules based on interpretation of intent, things could get really messy, really fast.

Remember, the Corey Dennis ejection? It wasn't his intent to lead with his helmet. He still got ejected.

 

[yellojello]

OK so you think that counts as a pass, too? really?

What constitutes sufficient forward movement will be a judgement call on the official's part. They would probably attempt to clarify the rule in case it was challenged/considered an error.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

GT was on the 17 yard line. If this is considered an incomplete pass, we go for the field goal and hopefully have GT 24 UGA 17. Kickoff to UGA and hopefully have them behind the 25 versus the 32. If they make a TD then the score is tied and we go into OT.

And UGA goes for the win by going for 2. Ugh. I don't really want to think of alternate scenarios as I am just glad that somehow the better team actually did win despite the shady refs.

And no, unlike that radio show caller said the goal line fumble does not even out the universe for the Jasper Sanks fumble. 1) UGA has gotten far too many b.s. helpful calls from refs over the years (like phantom PI); 2) Sanks fumble was on a hubris play when they could have kicked a FG to win and hubris begets nemesis; 3) and there was no video replay back then anyway.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

"Pass it forward" is defined based on the rules in the rulebook. Not based on intent. If they started making rules based on interpretation of intent, things could get really messy, really fast.

Remember, the Corey Dennis ejection? It wasn't his intent to lead with his helmet. He still got ejected.

Show me where it says anytime a player moves his arm forward with the ball in it it's a forward pass. The rule you posted says:

When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward...

In other words, when a guy is trying to pass it, it's a forward pass when.......

Like I said earlier, the rule you posted is to differentiate between two kinds of passes, forwards ones and backwards ones.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

He dropped a pump-fake or the ball got stuck in his hands while changing his mind on the pass. The point is that we just don't know and that the refs are supposed to err on the side of calling it a pass.

YES! That is exactly the point that CPJ makes and says he got from the head of ACC officiating. The default is to this being an attempt to pass where he loses the ball. The reason it is the default is because it eliminates the need to dissect intent or worry too much about exact precise point at which a ball comes loose from a hand. Usually when someone loses a ball on a pump fake they do so because they slap it down against their hip or leg by accident.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

If it's so obvious then why did both the SEC field officials and the ACC replay officials rule it a fumble?

There were no ACC replay officials. It was an all SEC officiating crew per the contracts for Florida and UGA for any home non-conference games they play. It is a rule of both those teams contracts that Tech agreed to starting last year.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It didn't resemble a pass at all, it was a pump fake, that is something we all agree on. What's not in agreement is what is the correct call when a qb fumbles a pump fake.

No we do not all agree on that at all. What is a pump fake but a throwing motion in which at the end of it the QB brings the ball back to his body? Until the ball is brought back it is just a throwing motion and not yet a completed pump fake. The ball came out during the throwing motion, hence it should be called an incomplete pass.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Usually when someone loses a ball on a pump fake they do so because they slap it down against their hip or leg by accident.

or if you have small hands or the ball is wet or your hand is sweaty, or....

When I saw the play, it looked like he intentionally stopped his forward motion, as in a typical pump fake, and ball flew out. That's a fumble. The replay official could have seen the same thing and without any question in his mind.

Look, we got a huge break in the Ga So game and we got the opposite here. Both calls were judgements made by replay officials. Neither replay official has been officially rebuked by the league.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Show me where it says anytime a player moves his arm forward with the ball in it it's a forward pass. The rule you posted says:

When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward...

In other words, when a guy is trying to pass it, it's a forward pass when.......

Like I said earlier, the rule you posted is to differentiate between two kinds of passes, forwards ones and backwards ones.

You cannot judge if something is going to be a pump fake or a forward pass until the end of the QB's entire arm motion. The rulebook clearly states that the assumption of intent is always that what they are witnessing when a QB starts a forward arm motion with the ball that he has begun a "forward pass." "Holding a ball to pass it forward" means having it cocked back in one hand of a raised arm. That set-up is exactly the same whether what comes after it turns out to eventually be shown to be a pump-fake or if it ends up being some kind of pass. SO the rulebook is telling refs they must start with an assumption of an intent to pass it forward.

 

[B Lifsey]

It didn't resemble a pass at all, it was a pump fake...

Hmmmmm. That's an interesting comment. An action/movement to make the pass rusher think you are passing the ball does not resemble a pass.