If this isn't enough to scare recruits from uga

[MWBATL]

What I want to share now is not a criticism of you or your arguments but rather an attempt at a teachable moment. When blacks hear whites counter the white privilege discussion with comments about other races, other countries or other times in history it often sounds to them like an inability to hear someone's truth who is not white. The reason for this is our own unique American history. From Jim Crow laws, to separate but equal to voter suppression, white people have often had "reasonable arguments" for maintaining a white privilege they didn't recognize and claimed they didn't have.

I appreciate the comment, but I also assure you I am not bereft of black friends, and we do discuss this topic. I understand the perspective you describe.

I also live less than a mile from the Ebenezer Baptist Church and MLK home. A bridge near my home has his famous quote about “Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.” I am well aware of the truth of that quote and remind my black friends of it as well. They are honest enough to recognize that racism exists in both black and white communities and that revenge is not the way to go.

I think we can have a civil discussion because we both acknowledge what was wrong about the past and (I think) we both want to same objective of the American dream of freedom and equal opportunity for all citizens. I find that encouraging.

I look forward to further exchanges with you...and hope we can both listen to the other's arguments as we have been...

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I appreciate the comment, but I also assure you I am not bereft of black friends, and we do discuss this topic. I understand the perspective you describe.

I also live less than a mile from the Ebenezer Baptist Church and MLK home. A bridge near my home has his famous quote about “Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.” I am well aware of the truth of that quote and remind my black friends of it as well. They are honest enough to recognize that racism exists in both black and white communities and that revenge is not the way to go.

I think we can have a civil discussion because we both acknowledge what was wrong about the past and (I think) we both want to same objective of the American dream of freedom and equal opportunity for all citizens. I find that encouraging.

I look forward to further exchanges with you...and hope we can both listen to the other's arguments as we have been...

Spent a day over in Atlanta after my flight from Boston. I am home tonight.

Ironically, while in Atlanta, the discussion of reparations came up with my brother-in-law. We discussed what was fair, what was realistic and what had no possible chance of success given the political realities of our time.

It made me think further about the difficulties of a "fine tuned" response versus a broad general response. The broad general response would be a guaranteed minimum annual income for all citizens, something various politicians have promoted going back to Nixon. The advantage is that it is cost effective since it allows you to slowly do away with other types of social welfare support systems and gives more freedom to the individual to invest their resources in the ways that best suit their particular needs. It also is something everyone gets so no one can argue that one group or another is being favored or discriminated against. If some of the more egregious economic gaps in society are alleviated then there is less fertile ground for scape goating and blaming different racial groups for one's economic plight.

The challenge is that, even though most studies show it to be cost effective in the long run, some people have a knee jerk reaction against it and few politicians have the political capital, courage and will to shepherd that through.

The alternative is to shepherd through hundreds of separate individual pieces of legislation on specific areas of discrimination. This could cover everything from bank loans, to how real estate is sold, to free admission to state universities, to voter protection laws, to fair housing practices, to grants for law enforcement to learn best practices for community policing, to task forces on white supremacist groups, to teaching tolerance curriculums in local schools, to block grants for community health centers and much much more.

The advantage of this last approach is that it targets specific issues where generations of discrimination have created long term social injustices. It is less blunt and more "surgical" if you will. The disadvantage is that there are more ways the legislative process can get hijaked and pork projects and pet agendas added to particular bills.

When Obama was elected president many thought we had broken through to a post racial society. What we discovered is that his election only served to unearth a lot of repressed racial animosity. The work of creating a fair and just society is hard because it requires the hard work of listening to people who have had a completely different experience in life. But if we don't do this hard work then the American dream dies.

This conversation started because some uga students thought it was alright to use racial slurs and make a video making fun of black students. Comments from some were to the effect that speaking this way is just part of the rough and tumble society in which we live and the bleeding hearts just need to get over it. All of these sentiments show an appalling ignorance of history, an entitlement attitude about the privileged place they have in society, and a lack of understanding that democracy is undermined whenever fear and distrust between groups is promoted.

I've enjoyed our chat as well as The inspiring way in which you worked to keep this civil. Thank you.

 

[Skeptic]

...And there is nothing wrong with chewing tobacco

Other than it kills you.

 

[Skeptic]

... When Obama was elected president many thought we had broken through to a post racial society. What we discovered is that his election only served to unearth a lot of repressed racial animosity. The work of creating a fair and just society is hard because it requires the hard work of listening to people who have had a completely different experience in life. But if we don't do this hard work then the American dream dies.

Exactly so. And many of those slurs and slanders became draped as supposed "political comments".

 

[MWBATL]

Spent a day over in Atlanta after my flight from Boston. I am home tonight.

Ironically, while in Atlanta, the discussion of reparations came up with my brother-in-law. We discussed what was fair, what was realistic and what had no possible chance of success given the political realities of our time.

It made me think further about the difficulties of a "fine tuned" response versus a broad general response. The broad general response would be a guaranteed minimum annual income for all citizens, something various politicians have promoted going back to Nixon. The advantage is that it is cost effective since it allows you to slowly do away with other types of social welfare support systems and gives more freedom to the individual to invest their resources in the ways that best suit their particular needs. It also is something everyone gets so no one can argue that one group or another is being favored or discriminated against. If some of the more egregious economic gaps in society are alleviated then there is less fertile ground for scape goating and blaming different racial groups for one's economic plight.

The challenge is that, even though most studies show it to be cost effective in the long run, some people have a knee jerk reaction against it and few politicians have the political capital, courage and will to shepherd that through.

The alternative is to shepherd through hundreds of separate individual pieces of legislation on specific areas of discrimination. This could cover everything from bank loans, to how real estate is sold, to free admission to state universities, to voter protection laws, to fair housing practices, to grants for law enforcement to learn best practices for community policing, to task forces on white supremacist groups, to teaching tolerance curriculums in local schools, to block grants for community health centers and much much more.

The advantage of this last approach is that it targets specific issues where generations of discrimination have created long term social injustices. It is less blunt and more "surgical" if you will. The disadvantage is that there are more ways the legislative process can get hijaked and pork projects and pet agendas added to particular bills.

When Obama was elected president many thought we had broken through to a post racial society. What we discovered is that his election only served to unearth a lot of repressed racial animosity. The work of creating a fair and just society is hard because it requires the hard work of listening to people who have had a completely different experience in life. But if we don't do this hard work then the American dream dies.

This conversation started because some uga students thought it was alright to use racial slurs and make a video making fun of black students. Comments from some were to the effect that speaking this way is just part of the rough and tumble society in which we live and the bleeding hearts just need to get over it. All of these sentiments show an appalling ignorance of history, an entitlement attitude about the privileged place they have in society, and a lack of understanding that democracy is undermined whenever fear and distrust between groups is promoted.

I've enjoyed our chat as well as The inspiring way in which you worked to keep this civil. Thank you.

First of all, we completely agree on what the American Dream needs to be....equal opportunity for all American citizens, regardless or race or income level. We are nowhere near that yet, and it does disturb and sadden me. I have at times spoken to 8th graders and HS students about college and their options ...and have found a high proportion of black kids simply don't think it is possible for them. They have already 'given up' before they ever got into the race. That is not only sad for them but how many potentially brilliant kids do we as a society miss out on because we have not solved that problem? I do believe we are slowly getting better at it, and I don't have any "silver bullet" answers to solving it...but we do at least agree on the objective, which is refreshing.

As to the guaranteed income, have you looked at Andrew Yang's proposals? I was exposed to them by a friend I respect and they intrigue me. Personally, I am in favor of experimenting with them in a state to see how they work. (And yes, I am a Trump supporter.) I am not convinced they will work and have some of the usual fiscal conservatives' concerns (if you give people money, how many will decide they just don't want to work?)....BUT I also acknowledge there is very little real data on the idea and frankly I can see how it could result in genuine benefits.....so I am indeed in favor or a real life trial in a large enough area and over a long enough period of time to gather some real data.

Yang appeals to me for a number of reasons (even if a couple of his ideas turn me off.) I am just sorry that folks like him don't seem to have a realistic shot at being elected. I think his proposals are almost too cerebral and don't have some of the base emotional appeal that all politics seems to have devolved into. Somehow, supporting reparations is something that is emotionally satisfying to many in the left base (even many of my black friends concede there is an element of revenge in it in many cases). Supporting a basic income is something that is too confusing or complicated for many on both sides of the aisle. Conservatives will knee-jerk it with "another giveaway" while liberals will think it is not favorable enough to the aggrieved groups (like blacks). But. boy if he could make it through a crowded field, I might be seriously inclined to vote for him.....

(By the way, I suppose I should admit that I am a Trump supporter because, as my Dad used to say all the time..."Life is a choice among AVAILABLE alternatives."...and Trump has been the least of the evils in my book. But I don't mean to get partisan on you, just letting you know that there are plenty of aspects of Mr. Trump that I would prefer were different.)

I acho you comments about enjoying a discussion with civility and thoughtfulness. Enjoy your weekend!

 

[MWBATL]

Exactly so. And many of those slurs and slanders became draped as supposed "political comments".

As one who disagreed with many of Obama's policies, I would have preferred it if you had some "some" instead of "many"...as I do genuinely think that many of the criticisms were about policy. But, it would be unrealistic to argue that none were slurs or slanderous...unfortunately, this has become a mud-slinging country where both sides are engaging in that tactic and when confronted with it, the usual defense is the same defense you will hear in the elementary school playground....."well, HE started it first!"

It would be nice to rise above the elementary school mentality, as NE Stinger has done in this thread....

 

[Northeast Stinger]

First of all, we completely agree on what the American Dream needs to be....equal opportunity for all American citizens, regardless or race or income level. We are nowhere near that yet, and it does disturb and sadden me. I have at times spoken to 8th graders and HS students about college and their options ...and have found a high proportion of black kids simply don't think it is possible for them. They have already 'given up' before they ever got into the race. That is not only sad for them but how many potentially brilliant kids do we as a society miss out on because we have not solved that problem? I do believe we are slowly getting better at it, and I don't have any "silver bullet" answers to solving it...but we do at least agree on the objective, which is refreshing.

As to the guaranteed income, have you looked at Andrew Yang's proposals? I was exposed to them by a friend I respect and they intrigue me. Personally, I am in favor of experimenting with them in a state to see how they work. (And yes, I am a Trump supporter.) I am not convinced they will work and have some of the usual fiscal conservatives' concerns (if you give people money, how many will decide they just don't want to work?)....BUT I also acknowledge there is very little real data on the idea and frankly I can see how it could result in genuine benefits.....so I am indeed in favor or a real life trial in a large enough area and over a long enough period of time to gather some real data.

Yang appeals to me for a number of reasons (even if a couple of his ideas turn me off.) I am just sorry that folks like him don't seem to have a realistic shot at being elected. I think his proposals are almost too cerebral and don't have some of the base emotional appeal that all politics seems to have devolved into. Somehow, supporting reparations is something that is emotionally satisfying to many in the left base (even many of my black friends concede there is an element of revenge in it in many cases). Supporting a basic income is something that is too confusing or complicated for many on both sides of the aisle. Conservatives will knee-jerk it with "another giveaway" while liberals will think it is not favorable enough to the aggrieved groups (like blacks). But. boy if he could make it through a crowded field, I might be seriously inclined to vote for him.....

(By the way, I suppose I should admit that I am a Trump supporter because, as my Dad used to say all the time..."Life is a choice among AVAILABLE alternatives."...and Trump has been the least of the evils in my book. But I don't mean to get partisan on you, just letting you know that there are plenty of aspects of Mr. Trump that I would prefer were different.)

I acho you comments about enjoying a discussion with civility and thoughtfulness. Enjoy your weekend!

Yes, Yang was one of the people I had in mind. Obviously he was not the first to propose this. It is an approach that keeps coming back up every decade or so because, in my opinion, it has merit.

It ties in with the reparations argument for this reason. Reparations is something I support, not out of any sense of revenge (that is irrational) but because we have completely lost our ability to be an upwardly mobile society. Great Britain has passed us by, something I would have laughed at thought of even 30 years ago. The overall standard of living is much higher in socialist countries today than it is here and much of the wealth in this country is concentrated in the hands of people who did not earn it but who inherited it (Trump being a prime example). Motivation among the younger generations lags in part because they are realistic. As things stand now my children and grandchildren will come nowhere near the economic gains my parents experienced.

Reparations is a way to reshuffle the deck and get us unstuck. This was done in the past through GI Bills, breaking up monopolies the rich has on capital (Teddy Roosevelt) progressive tax structures, social security (the single most effective anti-poverty measure ever inacted) Pell Grants, and, most recentl, Affordabe Health Care. I personally know several people who were raised out of poverty by that last act.

Unfortunately, most efforts to reshuffle the deck and give everyone a chance seem to sooner or later come under attack by rich white guys. That is not a racist statement. It is a simple description of what is. But is it not any wonder then that people of color grow cynical about a system where the deck is constantly stacked against them? The sad irony is that those who champion some kind of redressing of historic and systemic economic injustices are often accused of wanting to give minorities special treatment. Once again an example white privilege in which those who have had the most special treatment of all fail to admit it.

Have a blessed weekend and stay safe.

 

[Skeptic]

As one who disagreed with many of Obama's policies, I would have preferred it if you had some "some" instead of "many"...as I do genuinely think that many of the criticisms were about policy. But, it would be unrealistic to argue that none were slurs or slanderous...unfortunately, this has become a mud-slinging country where both sides are engaging in that tactic and when confronted with it, the usual defense is the same defense you will hear in the elementary school playground....."well, HE started it first!"

It would be nice to rise above the elementary school mentality, as NE Stinger has done in this thread....

It was long ago I was in elementary school, and while you might prefer I diminished the racial attacks on Obama, they began with the "birther" fraud -- a corrupt and criminal enterprise that would never have been used on a white man -- see Ted Cruz, see Canada, a more likely though still specious blunderbuss -- and continues today when a certain someone doesn't seem to know Obama is out of office and Hilary lost to somebody in 2016. Frankly, I would take it further and say the entire "Tea Party" movement was race-inspired and almost disappeared after the 2016 election. Sorry, I think my characterization is fair and it is accurate. (And by the way the real elementary thing now is the "whatabout..." snappy comeback.) Or, I must point out, your assignment of equivalency to "both parties" .... It is too bad, because at one point I thought we had made progress.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

It was long ago I was in elementary school, and while you might prefer I diminished the racial attacks on Obama, they began with the "birther" fraud -- a corrupt and criminal enterprise that would never have been used on a white man -- see Ted Cruz, see Canada, a more likely though still specious blunderbuss -- and continues today when a certain someone doesn't seem to know Obama is out of office and Hilary lost to somebody in 2016. Frankly, I would take it further and say the entire "Tea Party" movement was race-inspired and almost disappeared after the 2016 election. Sorry, I think my characterization is fair and it is accurate. (And by the way the real elementary thing now is the "whatabout..." snappy comeback.) Or, I must point out, your assignment of equivalency to "both parties" .... It is too bad, because at one point I thought we had made progress.

The birther thing was one of the most shameful episodes in our racial history as a nation. A young black man who had survived long odds and through hard work and determination had climbed the social ladder to now turn around, reach back, and help others, a young man who was now an inspiration to others to try to succeed in life, was made the symbol of seething white racial animosity by a blow hard jerk.

After Trump was elected I called my congressmen repeatedly to tell them to urge Trump to apologize for his past attacks on Obama and bring our country together for healing. They either ignored me or laughed at the idea.

Immediately after Trump praised the Obamas for the gracious way he was treated when they hosted him in the White House he began to attack everything Obama did as president while making up even more stuff about him. Truthfully this plays to his racist base.

Meanwhile, he has made us less safe with North Korea, undermined a treaty with Iran that was working, created a crisis on our border, squandered the rebuilt economy that Obama handed over to him, destroyed manufacturing and farm jobs through pointless tariffs and trade wars, and presided over the greatest rise in white supremacy since just prior to WW II.

The saddest part of all to me is that much of his base is actually worse off now but they are happy as little clams because "Trump is like them." But he is not like them in any way at all except for one way -he is a racist white guy.

 

[MWBATL]

It was long ago I was in elementary school, and while you might prefer I diminished the racial attacks on Obama, they began with the "birther" fraud -- a corrupt and criminal enterprise that would never have been used on a white man -- see Ted Cruz, see Canada, a more likely though still specious blunderbuss -- and continues today when a certain someone doesn't seem to know Obama is out of office and Hilary lost to somebody in 2016. Frankly, I would take it further and say the entire "Tea Party" movement was race-inspired and almost disappeared after the 2016 election. Sorry, I think my characterization is fair and it is accurate. (And by the way the real elementary thing now is the "whatabout..." snappy comeback.) Or, I must point out, your assignment of equivalency to "both parties" .... It is too bad, because at one point I thought we had made progress.

Sorry, but your comments are over the top and are examples of exactly what I was talking about.

Perhaps you don't know many conservative,s or perhaps those you know happen to also be racists. I know many conservatives and only a very small minority are racists. Criticism of Obama was strong, but for the vast majority of folks I know, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with his race, and it is a complete and utter cop-out to jump to that conclusion.

You're offended by the birther silliness? I know almost no one who took that seriously. But guess what, conservatives have been offended often...and probably MOST often by being accused of being racists when they aren't. The idea that somehow one party or group is high and might and the other is evil and racist is honestly just contemptible and unworthy. There are racists....ON BOTH SIDES. There are biased partisans who will attach the other group...ON BOTH SIDES. The sooner we all realize this the sooner we can move together towards reconciliation, even if we never agree on certain things. I prefer to be an optimist and believe that it is a minority of people on each side who are truly fanatical and completely partisan. In fact, most of those that I know are more middle of the road. The biggest Democrat I know happens to be the biggest racist I know. Doesn't mean much overall. You may know a conservative racist....don't fall into the trap of tarring entire groups like the TEA Party as being racist based on limited information (or lies told to the media and repeated all over the internet by one side....or the other).

If you don't think there is bitter vitriol, hatred and shameful anger on the left....well, I don't know what to tell you. My own experiences in trying to visit places like Democrat Underground and DailyKos has been far less than inclusive and welcoming and has been simply full of insults and anger directed by people who have no clue what my beliefs are....As I said, I prefer to believe folks like that are the minority (or have just had a lousy day), BUT....they absolutely, positively and without any doubt exist on both sides of the aisle and always have....

 

[MWBATL]

The birther thing was one of the most shameful episodes in our racial history as a nation. A young black man who had survived long odds and through hard work and determination had climbed the social ladder to now turn around, reach back, and help others, a young man who was now an inspiration to others to try to succeed in life, was made the symbol of seething white racial animosity by a blow hard jerk.

After Trump was elected I called my congressmen repeatedly to tell them to urge Trump to apologize for his past attacks on Obama and bring our country together for healing. They either ignored me or laughed at the idea.

Immediately after Trump praised the Obamas for the gracious way he was treated when they hosted him in the White House he began to attack everything Obama did as president while making up even more stuff about him. Truthfully this plays to his racist base.

Meanwhile, he has made us less safe with North Korea, undermined a treaty with Iran that was working, created a crisis on our border, squandered the rebuilt economy that Obama handed over to him, destroyed manufacturing and farm jobs through pointless tariffs and trade wars, and presided over the greatest rise in white supremacy since just prior to WW II.

The saddest part of all to me is that much of his base is actually worse off now but they are happy as little clams because "Trump is like them." But he is not like them in any way at all except for one way -he is a racist white guy.

The birther thing was totally silly. I don't know that I found it as offensive as you describe, but I do agree that it was a worthless diatribe that was sad. I can understand why it would frustrate and anger those on the left though.

I continue to object to the description of Trump's base as racist....unbless you are referring to the minority part of his base (like the minority part of the Democrat base) who are racist. We definitely see the world differently. I find an economy with real wages rising at the highest rate in years (something they did not do under Obama) and rising at the lowest levels of society (where during Obama's term, the gap in income disparity was made worse).

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a...orkers-likely-to-keep-accelerating-2019-03-08

I see unemployment rates that are at historic lows in the black and Latino communities. Trump certainly has not done anything to harm this trend and has helped it reach its historic levels.

I see a stock market at all-time highs. Those are all pretty factually correct statements. *I won't bother with a chart here because it is so obvious.)

Manufacturing jobs are up. Last year, 264,000 new manufacturing jobs were added, representing the highest number of new workers since 1988. As a percent of the total workforce, manufacturing rose for the first time since 1984. MarketWatch

All of those are FACTS. You say he squandered an economy but the facts do not support your assertion and is something I disagree with pretty strongly in view of those facts. In the area of opinion, most recoveries (1) were much stronger than they were under the Obama economy (a historically true fact) and (2) usually have started back on a downturn after 6 years of recovery. That ours has strengthened and continued forward is a testament to the economic policies of this administration. We ahev NEVER in our economic history had a recovery last this long (now at 10 years and counting). Yet you say that Trump has squandered the economy? I am sorry, but the facts simply do not support that argument.

As far as international relations is concerned, facts are not there to support anyone's views. I think Obama was terribly at fault for how he handled the Middle East and the whole Syrian mess and it has resulted in the European migration crisis that ha sin turn led to Brexit and the rise of nationalism on Europe. My opinion...I am not sure that can be proven or disproven with facts. Same with your opinion about North Korea.

As far as the rise of white nationalism is concerned. I think honestly, and I am saying this with all respect....I believe that is a trope that has been raised by the left to frighten people. (In other words, you're watching too much MSNBC.) There have always been a few kooks out there, and there still are. Just like there have always been a few kooks out there on the left (Antifa and SOME in the Black Lives Matter movement who chant things like "Cops are Pigs...Fry 'em Like Bacon" come to mind at once). NEITHER group of kooks should be tolerated or supported or forgiven (but the mainstream media does exactly that with the kooks on the left).

But, after all that, the one thing I believe you have gotten completely and 100% wrong is your last statement ...Trump doesn't get the strong support from his base because they are all happy little racists....much of this is a reaction to the oblivion of the left to how nearly 50% of the people in this country completely disagreed with the direction we were going in under Obama and we were simply dismissed as all being racists (as you have just done again). There are many, many people who feel that the media in this country and its elite centers on both coasts simply ignore the 47% of the folks who live in middle American and have different values. We are then dismissed as Deplorables, or racists when we do object loudly. So, now, finally, we have someone who does not reject us in those terms, and we see those who DO judge us and name call us with the Trump Derangement Syndrome, and our one overwhelming feeling is just this.....we spent 8 years under Obama feeling the way you do right now. We found him intensely divisive, wrong in his economic policies, ignorant of our needs and uncaring. So....welcome to the world we inhabited between 2008-2016. How does it feel to you? Because, my friends, THAT is how it felt to us.

I will say that while I understand that feeling and emotionally feel much of the same at times myself. I also understand that the show will indeed be on the other foot sometime soon...whether in 2 years or 6....which is something I wish the left would understand as well. AND that it would be best for the long term interests of the country if neither side playing the "rile up your base's hatred game". Unfortunately, that's not how elections are won. So, we will face nearly 2 years of this cr*p on both sides and it will leave us more divided than ever. (But PLEASE don't pretend that the Dems did not do exactly the same every election.)

 

[MWBATL]

From that terrible right-wing newspaper, The Guardian:

The subsequent recovery has been long but, by American standards, weak. Traditionally, the US has recovered sharply from downturns and had several years of fast growth. In the 1960s, for example, the US economy grew by 4.9% a year on average while in the 1990s it expanded by 3.6% a year on average. The average during the current expansion is 2.2% and it is the first business cycle since the second world war in which there has not been a single year of growth above 3%.

This was written in April, 2018, and since then we have now gotten our 3% GDP growth.

 

[MWBATL]

Yes, Yang was one of the people I had in mind. Obviously he was not the first to propose this. It is an approach that keeps coming back up every decade or so because, in my opinion, it has merit.

One of the other things I like about this proposal is that as robots take away more and more jobs, this kind of an approach would provide a runway for folks who want to get training to go do something different. Yang seems very honest about this trend and that we as a society need to do something about it.....and he is right!

Sticking our collective heads in the sand and ignoring this will simply put us further behind the 8 ball. And by "us" I mean those with the least ability to change with the times.....those with the lowest skills, those with the worst geographic options, those with the least flexibility. The folks who work at Google will be just fine. The coal miner in Kentucky....not so much....

 

[Northeast Stinger]

The birther thing was totally silly. I don't know that I found it as offensive as you describe, but I do agree that it was a worthless diatribe that was sad. I can understand why it would frustrate and anger those on the left though.

I continue to object to the description of Trump's base as racist....unbless you are referring to the minority part of his base (like the minority part of the Democrat base) who are racist. We definitely see the world differently. I find an economy with real wages rising at the highest rate in years (something they did not do under Obama) and rising at the lowest levels of society (where during Obama's term, the gap in income disparity was made worse).

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a...orkers-likely-to-keep-accelerating-2019-03-08

I see unemployment rates that are at historic lows in the black and Latino communities. Trump certainly has not done anything to harm this trend and has helped it reach its historic levels.

I see a stock market at all-time highs. Those are all pretty factually correct statements. *I won't bother with a chart here because it is so obvious.)

Manufacturing jobs are up. Last year, 264,000 new manufacturing jobs were added, representing the highest number of new workers since 1988. As a percent of the total workforce, manufacturing rose for the first time since 1984. MarketWatch

All of those are FACTS. You say he squandered an economy but the facts do not support your assertion and is something I disagree with pretty strongly in view of those facts. In the area of opinion, most recoveries (1) were much stronger than they were under the Obama economy (a historically true fact) and (2) usually have started back on a downturn after 6 years of recovery. That ours has strengthened and continued forward is a testament to the economic policies of this administration. We ahev NEVER in our economic history had a recovery last this long (now at 10 years and counting). Yet you say that Trump has squandered the economy? I am sorry, but the facts simply do not support that argument.

As far as international relations is concerned, facts are not there to support anyone's views. I think Obama was terribly at fault for how he handled the Middle East and the whole Syrian mess and it has resulted in the European migration crisis that ha sin turn led to Brexit and the rise of nationalism on Europe. My opinion...I am not sure that can be proven or disproven with facts. Same with your opinion about North Korea.

As far as the rise of white nationalism is concerned. I think honestly, and I am saying this with all respect....I believe that is a trope that has been raised by the left to frighten people. (In other words, you're watching too much MSNBC.) There have always been a few kooks out there, and there still are. Just like there have always been a few kooks out there on the left (Antifa and SOME in the Black Lives Matter movement who chant things like "Cops are Pigs...Fry 'em Like Bacon" come to mind at once). NEITHER group of kooks should be tolerated or supported or forgiven (but the mainstream media does exactly that with the kooks on the left).

But, after all that, the one thing I believe you have gotten completely and 100% wrong is your last statement ...Trump doesn't get the strong support from his base because they are all happy little racists....much of this is a reaction to the oblivion of the left to how nearly 50% of the people in this country completely disagreed with the direction we were going in under Obama and we were simply dismissed as all being racists (as you have just done again). There are many, many people who feel that the media in this country and its elite centers on both coasts simply ignore the 47% of the folks who live in middle American and have different values. We are then dismissed as Deplorables, or racists when we do object loudly. So, now, finally, we have someone who does not reject us in those terms, and we see those who DO judge us and name call us with the Trump Derangement Syndrome, and our one overwhelming feeling is just this.....we spent 8 years under Obama feeling the way you do right now. We found him intensely divisive, wrong in his economic policies, ignorant of our needs and uncaring. So....welcome to the world we inhabited between 2008-2016. How does it feel to you? Because, my friends, THAT is how it felt to us.

I will say that while I understand that feeling and emotionally feel much of the same at times myself. I also understand that the show will indeed be on the other foot sometime soon...whether in 2 years or 6....which is something I wish the left would understand as well. AND that it would be best for the long term interests of the country if neither side playing the "rile up your base's hatred game". Unfortunately, that's not how elections are won. So, we will face nearly 2 years of this cr*p on both sides and it will leave us more divided than ever. (But PLEASE don't pretend that the Dems did not do exactly the same every election.)

"Oh, to truly see ourselves as others see us," was a quote I learned in childhood.

Denials that racism has been a major factor in our divisions feels like selected memory. At the height of the birther conspiracy movement over 70% of republicans expressed doubt about Obama's nationality. Every major conservative political caucus in Washington was headed up by a birther. Almost every state GOP organization was headed by a birther. Our state's own Nathan Deal was a birther. Kansas, Arizona and Mississippi tried to keep Obama off the ballot. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and all the other leading conservative commentators embraced and fed the conspiracy. I could go on but I have tried to forget most of this horse manure and luckily many of things that have occurred have faded from memory.

The rise of right wing hate groups is not a liberal trope and I am disappointed that you feel that way. Check the Southern Poverty Law Center, a long standing reputable tracking organization. Even as I say this I realize that they too have been under a relentless propaganda attack since Trump has been office apparently because of their Jewish roots. I am not saying Trump is behind this just saying that the attacks were timed with his political rise. At the very least look at the FBI reports or the Uniformed Services reports out of different regions of the country. Yes, hate crimes are increasing. That is a fact.

I have never seen a President so willing to divide us. He repeatedly lies about Mexicans, Muslims, immigrants, blacks, liberals and anyone he thinks will divide people up. His "lock her up" chants at his rallies (which he is still doing!) strikes me as the single lowest level of political discourse in our lifetime. People can dislike Hillary (heck, people in Arkansas made millions exporting their conspiracy theories around the country!) for her politics but to ignore the tremendous good she accomplished raising up advantaged young people strikes me as willful ignorance. I also know people who know her, including her chaplain that she checks in with every morning at 5 AM, and they all say she is a person of deep religious belief and moral character. I have never heard anyone who knows Trump well speak of his moral character.

The economy has been squandered. We had the longest period of sustained growth and job creation in our history under Obama, a remarkable achievement given that he did this while fighting one of our worst economic crises. Coming off of that it was time to rebuild our infrastructure, shore up our social safety nets, improve healthcare, continue to cut the deficit, close tax loopholes for the rich and make education affordable for all. At the same time the Fed needed to prepare us for the soft landing when the economy eventually slows. None of this happened due to many factors including non-stop nonsense about a wall, hysteria over various ethnic groups, arguments about who got the most popular votes in the last election, attacks on the LGBTQ community, unprecedented chaos and turnover in the White House, attacks on the Dreamers, a giant tax giveaway to the rich and unprecedented attempts to bully and influence the Fed. So much hate and so much narcissism at a time when we could have unified the country for a greater good! Squandered in every sense of the word.

I predict that whoever is president 3 years from now is going to have a major economic mess on their hands. And now that our social capital and good will has been totally exhausted it could get even uglier. But "lock her up" seems to be the extent of his vision for America.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

One of the other things I like about this proposal is that as robots take away more and more jobs, this kind of an approach would provide a runway for folks who want to get training to go do something different. Yang seems very honest about this trend and that we as a society need to do something about it.....and he is right!

Sticking our collective heads in the sand and ignoring this will simply put us further behind the 8 ball. And by "us" I mean those with the least ability to change with the times.....those with the lowest skills, those with the worst geographic options, those with the least flexibility. The folks who work at Google will be just fine. The coal miner in Kentucky....not so much....

Agree.

It is one more reason Trump is not a leader. Hillary got in trouble by saying coal miners needed to look for new jobs (a politically stupid thing to say when campaigning) but Trump doubled down on bringing back coal. Since he has been in office more coal mines and coal jobs have been lost, which is inevitable, but he responds by attacking solar energy even though it provides 100,000s more jobs.

A leader would begin to tell the American people the truth, but there you go.

 

[MWBATL]

I predict that whoever is president 3 years from now is going to have a major economic mess on their hands.

Given that this economic growth...which as you can see plainly from all the charts I posted, is still going quite nicely, thank you very much...will shortly break the record for the longest period of sustained growth in US economic history, it would seem a very safe guess that we will have a downturn or be in a downturn in 3 years. I am not sure it will mean much more than economic cycles, unless it is unusually severe or unusally long.

I fear that we are at a loggerhead though. I posted chart after chart of a strong economic performance that is unabated, NOT being squandered. You responded with rhetoric, but no data to support your claims. So, honestly, I am at a loss as to how to converse. If you have data, charts, or facts to support your claim about Trump squandering the economy, please do post them. Otherwise, with all due respect, I will believe the hard data and not the rhetoric.

I almost feel like a Progressive asking a Conservative whether he believes in science.....do you believe in data? What am I missing?

 

[MWBATL]

Agree.

It is one more reason Trump is not a leader. Hillary got in trouble by saying coal miners needed to look for new jobs (a politically stupid thing to say when campaigning) but Trump doubled down on bringing back coal. Since he has been in office more coal mines and coal jobs have been lost, which is inevitable, but he responds by attacking solar energy even though it provides 100,000s more jobs.

A leader would begin to tell the American people the truth, but there you go.

Surely you are not suggesting Hilary was a leader?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Surely you are not suggesting Hilary was a leader?

Never got the hate for Hillary. Yes, she is far more of a leader than Trump.

 

[herb]

Nm

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Given that this economic growth...which as you can see plainly from all the charts I posted, is still going quite nicely, thank you very much...will shortly break the record for the longest period of sustained growth in US economic history, it would seem a very safe guess that we will have a downturn or be in a downturn in 3 years. I am not sure it will mean much more than economic cycles, unless it is unusually severe or unusally long.

I fear that we are at a loggerhead though. I posted chart after chart of a strong economic performance that is unabated, NOT being squandered. You responded with rhetoric, but no data to support your claims. So, honestly, I am at a loss as to how to converse. If you have data, charts, or facts to support your claim about Trump squandering the economy, please do post them. Otherwise, with all due respect, I will believe the hard data and not the rhetoric.

I almost feel like a Progressive asking a Conservative whether he believes in science.....do you believe in data? What am I missing?

I know that the week after Trump took office he immediately took credit for the economy. But it doesn't work that way.

I am not sure what data you would need to know that our infrastructure is badly in need of rebuilding. I don't know what data you would need to know that those who are still without health care are severely limited in their economic opportunities. I don't know what data you would need to be convinced that a family can't live /thrive on a minimum wage job.

Beyond that you are certainly smart enough to know that the economic opportunities for the younger generations are practically flat lining compared to previous generations. And I know that you know that the gap between the rich and poor is of historic proportions.

I am not disputing that the economy is growing and I never said that it wasn't. I am just saying that what little I remember from my college economics class, now is the time to use that growth to tackle some of the ticking timebombs in our nation. You don't increase debt during the boom years and you don't cut taxes. You invest in the people and help those who have been left behind.

Well, I am just in danger of repeating what I said before. We just may need to disagree on this. My dream was that Trump would expand health coverage, ratify the Dream Act, tackle college debt and help create new job sectors for the under employed. Instead, his rhetoric scapegoated the disadvantaged and he gave his rich friends yet another break.

You can tell that I think he has been a big disappointment. And I am not optimistic that his presidency is going to end well for our country.