If this isn't enough to scare recruits from uga

[LibertyTurns]

@Northeast Stinger I have to admit you points were well made, albeit I didn’t necessarily agree with a fair amount, up to a couple of posts ago. I’d have left the political element out because I think you fundamentally misunderstand why people favor one approach over another.

My father, a very wise man by my account, sat me down at a very young age. I’m not white, I’m not black, I’m that mix breed you pick up at the pound. He told me there were going to be people in my lifetime that would not like me because of the way I looked, there would be people that really didn’t care, some that really didn’t care would suddenly care under certain situations & some that would like me. Some would over-try to be friendly for a variety of different reasons, some would try to give me stuff I didn’t deserve & their motivations would span the spectrum from benevolent to pity.

Some of the advice he gave me was priceless. Stand on your own merits. Do not tolerate people patronizing you. Face the competition & beat it. If you can’t beat it on intelligence, beat it on work ethic, but beat it. Persevere through setbacks because there will be many more setbacks than successes. Good things will eventually happen to good people doing good things every day. Bad things will occasionally happen to good people doing good things every day, but good people keep doing good things anyway. Always act like someone’s watching. People who do the right things when nobody’s watching will eventually have someone notice & it will make a difference. There were many others, all solid life advice.

One of life’s little challenges was the face off of the college applications. I could have put damn near anything down & passed for it all. Dad picked white. Told me if my application was competitive, I’d get accepted. See despite anything that had happened to him in his lifetime, he believed in the American Dream & us living in the land of opportunity. Add that to the fact that he didn’t want anything given to us because he fervently believed it leads to dependency, he wanted us to earn everything we have. No breaks.

My father believed that if our family & successive generations were to prosper we needed to assimilate in whatever community we lived in. It’s a lot harder for racist behavior to occur if people are assimilated in the groups that are the core foundation of their communities. Isolationist movements cloaked under the guise of racial solidarity I find are divisive. I’m all for celebrating achievements of those less fortunate, leaders of our country, as they are important in understanding who has contributed to our country’s success. Sadly, many do not know our own history.

I’m sure I’ve gotten breaks in life because of who I am & I’m sure that I’ve gotten setbacks for the same reason. I don’t know what the percentage is. I’ve gotten pulled over, followed, harassed, etc. Frankly I don’t care. All I’ve ever wanted is the opportunity to succeed, not the removal of every impediment to success. If you took away all of life’s roadblocks, what joy or sense of accomplishment would there ever be for a person when they reached one of life’s important milestones?

 

[MWBATL]

"Oh, to truly see ourselves as others see us," was a quote I learned in childhood.

Denials that racism has been a major factor in our divisions feels like selected memory. At the height of the birther conspiracy movement over 70% of republicans expressed doubt about Obama's nationality. Every major conservative political caucus in Washington was headed up by a birther. Almost every state GOP organization was headed by a birther. Our state's own Nathan Deal was a birther. Kansas, Arizona and Mississippi tried to keep Obama off the ballot. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and all the other leading conservative commentators embraced and fed the conspiracy. I could go on but I have tried to forget most of this horse manure and luckily many of things that have occurred have faded from memory..

I am going to try to respond to your points in separate comments because some I agree with, some I disagree with, and it can become confusing in one huge post (which I am eminently guilty of as well...). Racism is a factor in America...I hope I have not given you the impression that it is not. The difference is that where you see it as apparently HUGE (to borrow a Trumpism), I see it as far less of a factor on the national stage. I challenge your statistic that 70% of Republicans expressed doubt about Obama's nationality (unless "I don't know and I don't care" counts as expressing doubt). Really. To state that every conservative caucus was headed up by a birther?? Um, Wall Street Journal anyone? I won't bother to go look but I can GUARANTEE you that you are simply incorrect. In fact, here is what The Daily Beast (another right wing site, I know)...said
Today was a big case of fail from our media. The bogus story? A claim that 64% of Republicans believe President Obama was born outside the United States. POLITICO's accurately written writeup, which used significantly more appropriate wording, was swiftly featured on the Drudge Report. POLITICO, however, seems alone in reporting it fairly.

Salon, Think Progress, and Gawker rushed to the report this news as proof 64% of Republicans were "birthers." (To his credit, Alex Seitz-Wald, the Salon reporter, swiftly corrected his account.)

Here's the question, which could be answered as true, somewhat true, unlikely, not at all likely, refuse to answer, or do not know: "President Obama is hiding important information about his background and early life."

That's it. No mention of his birthplace, no hinting at his citizenship, no allusions to Kenya. A simple: do you believe the President is hiding something?

So judge the question as you will, but journalists have no business stretching answers to this question into a headline like that employed by Think Progress' Adam Peck, who felt it appropriate to revise his story's headline from an initial "64% of Republicans are Birthers" to "As Many as 64% of Republicans are Birthers." The first statement is untrue. The second is as likely as the odds of President Obama actually being from Kenya.

The media has been truly terrible at getting facts out correctly, and I am afraid it sounds like you have been taken in by some of the (umm, I won't say Fake News) misleading reporting that sensationalizes the realities. Most Republicans don't really care about where Obama was born. Simple as that. Polls can be terrible indicators unless you really go and look at how the question was asked and answered.

I do happen to agree that Trump was sad in his pushing of birtherism. It was (and is) irrelevant. That some Republicans might lie to a pollster because they did not like Obama's policies should also come as no surprise.

Birtherism is a sad tale, but it is almost as sad and frustrating as the left's insistence that racism is fueling the right wing in this country. I would never say racism doesn't exist, and have consistently said it must be opposed wherever it is found...on the left or the right.....but it is NOT nearly the exaggerated threat you seem to fear it to be.

Thashoulddl make you happy.....

 

[MWBATL]

The rise of right wing hate groups is not a liberal trope and I am disappointed that you feel that way. Check the Southern Poverty Law Center, a long standing reputable tracking organization. Even as I say this I realize that they too have been under a relentless propaganda attack since Trump has been office apparently because of their Jewish roots. I am not saying Trump is behind this just saying that the attacks were timed with his political rise. At the very least look at the FBI reports or the Uniformed Services reports out of different regions of the country. Yes, hate crimes are increasing. That is a fact.

I have never seen a President so willing to divide us. He repeatedly lies about Mexicans, Muslims, immigrants, blacks, liberals and anyone he thinks will divide people up. His "lock her up" chants at his rallies (which he is still doing!) strikes me as the single lowest level of political discourse in our lifetime. People can dislike Hillary (heck, people in Arkansas made millions exporting their conspiracy theories around the country!) for her politics but to ignore the tremendous good she accomplished raising up advantaged young people strikes me as willful ignorance. I also know people who know her, including her chaplain that she checks in with every morning at 5 AM, and they all say she is a person of deep religious belief and moral character. I have never heard anyone who knows Trump well speak of his moral character.

This is a very intriguing topic. Why? Because both sides feel aggrieved.

First, let me remind you of the obvious...only one political party has actually had people shot by activists from the other side.....and it wasn't done by white nationalists.

You are correct that hate crime reports are up. But, once again, I urge you to look deeper at the data. Reporting is still in the process of being implemented. In 2017 nearly 1,000 additional agencies across the US began feeding hate crimes stats into the FBI database. Here is what another right wing site, PolitiFact had to say on the topic:

Both data collected by Levin and FBI has a caveat — they contain the reported crimes only. The Bureau of Justice Statistics, however, reports a much larger number of hate crimes, typically over 20,000 from 2009 to 2017. Instead of using police data, the agency conducted the National Crime Victimization Survey and counted unreported offenses where hate languages and symbols were present.

Data from the newest BJS hate crimes statistics briefing — different from the FBI data — shows that there’s a significant decrease of hate crimes overall from 2014 to 2017, plunging 25% in 2015, and staying almost flat under 20,000 from 2015 to 2017 (the annual total is calculated with a three-year-average for each year and rounded to the nearest hundreds).

Many left-wing sites, who like to pander to their audiences the way Fox does to the right-wing audience, see the raw FBI data and since it can be used to support their narrative, they jump on it. You are correct that I do not consider the Souhern Poverty Law Center a reliable data collector anymore. The good news is that many are waking up to the Southern Poverty Law Center. The FBI used to partner with them in identifying hate groups. They no longer do. The Army used to have them lecture on domestic terrorism. The Army has ended that relationship. Their definition of hate groups has been expanded over the years. It now includes....well, conservative groups. The Legal organization that defends conservatives who otherwise cannot afford to pay for legal defense, the Alliance Defdning Freedom, is on their list as a hate group. You take these folks at their word? Please keep in mind that the more they frighten people about hate groups, the more money they take in.......think about that. I will leave you with a list of hateful things done by the left......

https://www.conservapedia.com/Left-wing_violence_in_the_Trump_era

Yeah, it's a really long list...and if you go through it line by line, some of it might even be exaggerated or misunderstandings...but it is a long list. Please don't pretend only one side is responsible for increased violence in the political rhetoric.

Why do I think many on the extreme left hate Trump so much? Honestly, it is because he is so much like them...angry and willing to exaggerate and even lie to make his points, uses inflammatory language and selective statistics........Trump is just on the other side of the aisle.

I continue to believe and pray that the extreme left is a small minority. As is the extreme right.

Honestly, do you know any white nationalists? I know lots of folks, on both sides of the aisle, of all races and creeds, and virtually everyone I know personally I would say is more moderate than ANY of the politicians I see on TV. And certainly more moderate than any of the TV commentators.

 

[MWBATL]

I know that the week after Trump took office he immediately took credit for the economy. But it doesn't work that way.

I am not sure what data you would need to know that our infrastructure is badly in need of rebuilding. I don't know what data you would need to know that those who are still without health care are severely limited in their economic opportunities. I don't know what data you would need to be convinced that a family can't live /thrive on a minimum wage job.

Beyond that you are certainly smart enough to know that the economic opportunities for the younger generations are practically flat lining compared to previous generations. And I know that you know that the gap between the rich and poor is of historic proportions.

I am not disputing that the economy is growing and I never said that it wasn't. I am just saying that what little I remember from my college economics class, now is the time to use that growth to tackle some of the ticking timebombs in our nation. You don't increase debt during the boom years and you don't cut taxes. You invest in the people and help those who have been left behind.

Well, I am just in danger of repeating what I said before. We just may need to disagree on this. My dream was that Trump would expand health coverage, ratify the Dream Act, tackle college debt and help create new job sectors for the under employed. Instead, his rhetoric scapegoated the disadvantaged and he gave his rich friends yet another break.

You can tell that I think he has been a big disappointment. And I am not optimistic that his presidency is going to end well for our country.

Ah, I think I am finally understanding what you were saying. I also had to laugh when Trump tried to take credit for the economy so quickly after taking office. I also laugh when people try to say that Obama was a disaster or a complete failure on the economy. Whilst I disagreed with some of his policies, clearly based on the charts I posted before Obama could not be called a disaster...he helped right our economy and deserves credit for that. But as the charts and comments posted earlier also show, the economy has done even better under trump, and that is where you and I diverge. But just as you refuse to give Trump any credit for anything (or so it seems) there are some out there who feel the same way about Obama and refuse to give him any credit, even when he clearly deserves it.

We also agree that the infrastructure is falling apart, and something needs to be done about that. Politics continues to kill any potential for bi-partisan proposals. Democrats insist on forcing language into any deal which would guarantee that the work be given to union or minority contractors...that's just one example of how these things get caught up. Plus, there is such fierce resistance from the left on Trump, and has been since day 1, I think if any Democrat went along with anything he suggested they would be voted out in the next primary. So, it is very hard to see anything getting done in DC on the problems of our country, even when reasonable people can look at many of these issues and come to compromises that are at least better than what we are doing today (which most often is...nothing).

The difficulty in some respects is that we disagree on the cause of our current financial difficulties. You blame tax cuts. We were in deep trouble before long before Trumps' tax cuts though. Because of the continued march of 'socialism' in the USA. (No, not as classically defined..I am using the term colloquially here). Take Federal Spending.“Payments for individuals,” which encompass such income transfers as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and food stamps, among other things, 47.7% of outlays in 1989 and has steadily climbed to reach an estimated 69.2% in 2019. That is an enormous increase...unprecedented in American history. When you divert that much of Federal Spending into payment programs for people, there is very little left for things like...Oh, I don't know, Defense and Infrastructure, not to mention Interest. ObamaCare was the latest huge spike in that spending on individuals. You can dream about everything. You just can't afford it all.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Ah, I think I am finally understanding what you were saying. I also had to laugh when Trump tried to take credit for the economy so quickly after taking office. I also laugh when people try to say that Obama was a disaster or a complete failure on the economy. Whilst I disagreed with some of his policies, clearly based on the charts I posted before Obama could not be called a disaster...he helped right our economy and deserves credit for that. But as the charts and comments posted earlier also show, the economy has done even better under trump, and that is where you and I diverge. But just as you refuse to give Trump any credit for anything (or so it seems) there are some out there who feel the same way about Obama and refuse to give him any credit, even when he clearly deserves it.

We also agree that the infrastructure is falling apart, and something needs to be done about that. Politics continues to kill any potential for bi-partisan proposals. Democrats insist on forcing language into any deal which would guarantee that the work be given to union or minority contractors...that's just one example of how these things get caught up. Plus, there is such fierce resistance from the left on Trump, and has been since day 1, I think if any Democrat went along with anything he suggested they would be voted out in the next primary. So, it is very hard to see anything getting done in DC on the problems of our country, even when reasonable people can look at many of these issues and come to compromises that are at least better than what we are doing today (which most often is...nothing).

The difficulty in some respects is that we disagree on the cause of our current financial difficulties. You blame tax cuts. We were in deep trouble before long before Trumps' tax cuts though. Because of the continued march of 'socialism' in the USA. (No, not as classically defined..I am using the term colloquially here). Take Federal Spending.“Payments for individuals,” which encompass such income transfers as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and food stamps, among other things, 47.7% of outlays in 1989 and has steadily climbed to reach an estimated 69.2% in 2019. That is an enormous increase...unprecedented in American history. When you divert that much of Federal Spending into payment programs for people, there is very little left for things like...Oh, I don't know, Defense and Infrastructure, not to mention Interest. ObamaCare was the latest huge spike in that spending on individuals. You can dream about everything. You just can't afford it all.

Our differences are minor but we end up in different places. Pelosi was ready and excited to work on infrastructure when Trump came into office. She had done her homework in putting together bi-partisan support. But when Trump unveiled his agenda infrastructure was no where to be found.

I don't worry about defense spending. Even our generals say we spend too much on the wrong things. But I do worry about a foster mother my wife visited this week who gets $15 a month in food stamps.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

This is a very intriguing topic. Why? Because both sides feel aggrieved.

First, let me remind you of the obvious...only one political party has actually had people shot by activists from the other side.....and it wasn't done by white nationalists.

You are correct that hate crime reports are up. But, once again, I urge you to look deeper at the data. Reporting is still in the process of being implemented. In 2017 nearly 1,000 additional agencies across the US began feeding hate crimes stats into the FBI database. Here is what another right wing site, PolitiFact had to say on the topic:

Both data collected by Levin and FBI has a caveat — they contain the reported crimes only. The Bureau of Justice Statistics, however, reports a much larger number of hate crimes, typically over 20,000 from 2009 to 2017. Instead of using police data, the agency conducted the National Crime Victimization Survey and counted unreported offenses where hate languages and symbols were present.

Data from the newest BJS hate crimes statistics briefing — different from the FBI data — shows that there’s a significant decrease of hate crimes overall from 2014 to 2017, plunging 25% in 2015, and staying almost flat under 20,000 from 2015 to 2017 (the annual total is calculated with a three-year-average for each year and rounded to the nearest hundreds).

Many left-wing sites, who like to pander to their audiences the way Fox does to the right-wing audience, see the raw FBI data and since it can be used to support their narrative, they jump on it. You are correct that I do not consider the Souhern Poverty Law Center a reliable data collector anymore. The good news is that many are waking up to the Southern Poverty Law Center. The FBI used to partner with them in identifying hate groups. They no longer do. The Army used to have them lecture on domestic terrorism. The Army has ended that relationship. Their definition of hate groups has been expanded over the years. It now includes....well, conservative groups. The Legal organization that defends conservatives who otherwise cannot afford to pay for legal defense, the Alliance Defdning Freedom, is on their list as a hate group. You take these folks at their word? Please keep in mind that the more they frighten people about hate groups, the more money they take in.......think about that. I will leave you with a list of hateful things done by the left......

https://www.conservapedia.com/Left-wing_violence_in_the_Trump_era

Yeah, it's a really long list...and if you go through it line by line, some of it might even be exaggerated or misunderstandings...but it is a long list. Please don't pretend only one side is responsible for increased violence in the political rhetoric.

Why do I think many on the extreme left hate Trump so much? Honestly, it is because he is so much like them...angry and willing to exaggerate and even lie to make his points, uses inflammatory language and selective statistics........Trump is just on the other side of the aisle.

I continue to believe and pray that the extreme left is a small minority. As is the extreme right.

Honestly, do you know any white nationalists? I know lots of folks, on both sides of the aisle, of all races and creeds, and virtually everyone I know personally I would say is more moderate than ANY of the politicians I see on TV. And certainly more moderate than any of the TV commentators.

Interesting point of view.

When white nationalists killed a protester in Virginia Trump could not bring himself to condemn the attack. This was such a contrast with the Obama years most people were stunned. As a matter of fact nobody I know can ever remember a past president who did not condemn violence. People who "hate Trump " as you put it, hate what he is communicating to the country about violence and division. I had never heard a presidential candidate prior to Trump tell supporters to punch a protester in the face, or that he would pay the legal bills if they roughed up protesters or that the opposing candidate should be locked up or that the press is the enemy. I finally had to quit watching him because I find his behavior so disgusting.

But let me tell you a good story. Recently in the town in Georgia where I live a candidate for congress who is also gay was planning some kind of gay conference. They had booked all the rooms in a local hotel. When they arrived a woman at the desk realized they were gay and revoked their reservation. She also made a speech to them about what she thought about them. I found out today that several members of the local Republican Party reached out to this gay man and asked what they could do to help. A famous inn and restaurant in town, owned by a campaign supporter of Kemp has offered his place for their event.

I think you and I might agree that these types of stories don't get told enough.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I am going to try to respond to your points in separate comments because some I agree with, some I disagree with, and it can become confusing in one huge post (which I am eminently guilty of as well...). Racism is a factor in America...I hope I have not given you the impression that it is not. The difference is that where you see it as apparently HUGE (to borrow a Trumpism), I see it as far less of a factor on the national stage. I challenge your statistic that 70% of Republicans expressed doubt about Obama's nationality (unless "I don't know and I don't care" counts as expressing doubt). Really. To state that every conservative caucus was headed up by a birther?? Um, Wall Street Journal anyone? I won't bother to go look but I can GUARANTEE you that you are simply incorrect. In fact, here is what The Daily Beast (another right wing site, I know)...said
Today was a big case of fail from our media. The bogus story? A claim that 64% of Republicans believe President Obama was born outside the United States. POLITICO's accurately written writeup, which used significantly more appropriate wording, was swiftly featured on the Drudge Report. POLITICO, however, seems alone in reporting it fairly.

Salon, Think Progress, and Gawker rushed to the report this news as proof 64% of Republicans were "birthers." (To his credit, Alex Seitz-Wald, the Salon reporter, swiftly corrected his account.)

Here's the question, which could be answered as true, somewhat true, unlikely, not at all likely, refuse to answer, or do not know: "President Obama is hiding important information about his background and early life."

That's it. No mention of his birthplace, no hinting at his citizenship, no allusions to Kenya. A simple: do you believe the President is hiding something?

So judge the question as you will, but journalists have no business stretching answers to this question into a headline like that employed by Think Progress' Adam Peck, who felt it appropriate to revise his story's headline from an initial "64% of Republicans are Birthers" to "As Many as 64% of Republicans are Birthers." The first statement is untrue. The second is as likely as the odds of President Obama actually being from Kenya.

The media has been truly terrible at getting facts out correctly, and I am afraid it sounds like you have been taken in by some of the (umm, I won't say Fake News) misleading reporting that sensationalizes the realities. Most Republicans don't really care about where Obama was born. Simple as that. Polls can be terrible indicators unless you really go and look at how the question was asked and answered.

I do happen to agree that Trump was sad in his pushing of birtherism. It was (and is) irrelevant. That some Republicans might lie to a pollster because they did not like Obama's policies should also come as no surprise.

Birtherism is a sad tale, but it is almost as sad and frustrating as the left's insistence that racism is fueling the right wing in this country. I would never say racism doesn't exist, and have consistently said it must be opposed wherever it is found...on the left or the right.....but it is NOT nearly the exaggerated threat you seem to fear it to be.

Thashoulddl make you happy.....

I hope you are right.

I think the question I saw was something to the effect of "do you have doubts about Obama's birth certificate" or something to that effect. It was four years ago and the number of republicans who expressed doubt was astonishingly high. That number did drop substantially each year and I think the current percentage is something like 33% if I remember correctly.

I am afraid that encounter racism every day. You are lucky if you don't. It is an ugly thing. I lived in Macon, Georgia for 11 years. That is a town which to this day has never lived up to its potential. It has a charming downtown, lots of historic buildings and good housing stock. It has four colleges, two good museums and a rich history of musical entertainment. But every attempt to get Macon into the next century fails. The reason is that sooner or later race destroys every political process and civic project that comes up. An historian actually wrote a book several years ago called "Macon in Black and White" which traces the legacy of Jim Crow to Macon's current struggles.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

@Northeast Stinger I have to admit you points were well made, albeit I didn’t necessarily agree with a fair amount, up to a couple of posts ago. I’d have left the political element out because I think you fundamentally misunderstand why people favor one approach over another.

My father, a very wise man by my account, sat me down at a very young age. I’m not white, I’m not black, I’m that mix breed you pick up at the pound. He told me there were going to be people in my lifetime that would not like me because of the way I looked, there would be people that really didn’t care, some that really didn’t care would suddenly care under certain situations & some that would like me. Some would over-try to be friendly for a variety of different reasons, some would try to give me stuff I didn’t deserve & their motivations would span the spectrum from benevolent to pity.

Some of the advice he gave me was priceless. Stand on your own merits. Do not tolerate people patronizing you. Face the competition & beat it. If you can’t beat it on intelligence, beat it on work ethic, but beat it. Persevere through setbacks because there will be many more setbacks than successes. Good things will eventually happen to good people doing good things every day. Bad things will occasionally happen to good people doing good things every day, but good people keep doing good things anyway. Always act like someone’s watching. People who do the right things when nobody’s watching will eventually have someone notice & it will make a difference. There were many others, all solid life advice.

One of life’s little challenges was the face off of the college applications. I could have put damn near anything down & passed for it all. Dad picked white. Told me if my application was competitive, I’d get accepted. See despite anything that had happened to him in his lifetime, he believed in the American Dream & us living in the land of opportunity. Add that to the fact that he didn’t want anything given to us because he fervently believed it leads to dependency, he wanted us to earn everything we have. No breaks.

My father believed that if our family & successive generations were to prosper we needed to assimilate in whatever community we lived in. It’s a lot harder for racist behavior to occur if people are assimilated in the groups that are the core foundation of their communities. Isolationist movements cloaked under the guise of racial solidarity I find are divisive. I’m all for celebrating achievements of those less fortunate, leaders of our country, as they are important in understanding who has contributed to our country’s success. Sadly, many do not know our own history.

I’m sure I’ve gotten breaks in life because of who I am & I’m sure that I’ve gotten setbacks for the same reason. I don’t know what the percentage is. I’ve gotten pulled over, followed, harassed, etc. Frankly I don’t care. All I’ve ever wanted is the opportunity to succeed, not the removal of every impediment to success. If you took away all of life’s roadblocks, what joy or sense of accomplishment would there ever be for a person when they reached one of life’s important milestones?

Inspiring and not dissimilar to the way I was taught.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Inspiring and not dissimilar to the way I was taught.

It rings through in your approach to issues.

Here’s a question for you:

There’s a wealth gap in some segments of the population, most acutely in Blacks & Hispanics which possess roughly 5% the wealth of White families on average and less than that when compared to Asians. In 1964, LBJ launched the War on Poverty. The wealth gap increased ever since due to improper government intervention. Most of these programs (TANF, SNAP, etc) have needs based criteria, income & “countable resources”. It disincentivizes wealth creation. We paid people not to succeed.

Wouldn't it have been a successful approach to arm the disadvantaged with the means to succeed instead of providing a federal government safety net like we did?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

It rings through in your approach to issues.

Here’s a question for you:

There’s a wealth gap in some segments of the population, most acutely in Blacks & Hispanics which possess roughly 5% the wealth of White families on average and less than that when compared to Asians. In 1964, LBJ launched the War on Poverty. The wealth gap increased ever since due to improper government intervention. Most of these programs (TANF, SNAP, etc) have needs based criteria, income & “countable resources”. It disincentivizes wealth creation. We paid people not to succeed.

Wouldn't it have been a successful approach to arm the disadvantaged with the means to succeed instead of providing a federal government safety net like we did?

My experience in the past working with poor people is that the vast majority of them don't want to be poor. Many felt shame about accepting help from the government and would have done anything to get off of that support.

There is often an underlying premise on the part of some in these discussions is that government safety nets are the problem. I think that is a faulty premise. I am on an old phone (I'm cheap) so I don't have the capacity to link articles. However, I am not sure that matters anymore because most of us tend to pick the research that fits our preconceived bias.

Having said that, my memory is that the poverty rate was running between 17-19% when Johnson proposed his war on poverty. After about five years the poverty rates were reduced to their lowest level since records have been kept. Two things mitigated that progress in subsequent years, the Vietnam War, which drained resources and attention, and a growing perception on the part of many whites that they were footing the bill for lazy black people. That latter sentiment has been fed and fueled by politicians. Even now, where I live, I see bumper stickers that complain about people on welfare.

I don't disagree at all with your value system, your desire to see people work who are able, or the kind of society you eventually want to see. I just want to always remember that things have been worse in the past without many of the social programs we have implemented. If I recall, social security reduced the poverty rate among the elderly by over 20% and other programs have improved the fortunes of not insignificant numbers of people.

I remember that when Ronald Reagan was shot the doctor that saved his life went to Head Start and grew up on welfare. Of course that is anecdotal but it speaks to the fact that untold good has been accomplished through government programs. I haven't had a chance to study it yet but there is a Columbia University study that says our current poverty rate would be around 24% without our social safety nets.

I'm not sure how far I feel like wading into the weeds on government policy but in general I would assert we need to do much better and most government programs need constant tweaking as we get more data. But we have a political system which means demagoguery and inefficiency are always going to be the rule of the day.

Several times I have started to say to various people that we have wandered far from the subject of this thread. That's okay as long as we keep in mind that, per the uga story, racism in any form is an impediment to education. I personally think it is important to call it out whenever we see it because it diminishes us all and makes our society weaker.

 

[MWBATL]

Several times I have started to say to various people that we have wandered far from the subject of this thread. That's okay as long as we keep in mind that, per the uga story, racism in any form is an impediment to education. I personally think it is important to call it out whenever we see it because it diminishes us all and makes our society weaker.

Hear, hear!!!! Could not agree more with what you said, in most of the post, but that last statement by far the most.

 

[MWBATL]

Just a quick comment to tell the posters in this thread how enjoyable it has been to exchange ideas and discuss matters in a civil tone and with far less rancor than I see on TV (or in some other threads). I thank those who have posted for making the tone what it has been and appreciate their efforts to keep it that way.

For my part, while I may disagree on some of these topics with my fellow Jackets in this thread, it is the essence of our country to be able to discuss..and yes, to disagree..and still hold together and go to proverbial war (and sometimes literal war) to defend each other and the right to differing views. It has sharpened me to go dig out the data and research, it has forced me to think through ideas in order to express them properly, and that is always a good thing. I would go to war with you guys.

Thank you to all.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Several times I have started to say to various people that we have wandered far from the subject of this thread. That's okay as long as we keep in mind that, per the uga story, racism in any form is an impediment to education. I personally think it is important to call it out whenever we see it because it diminishes us all and makes our society weaker.

What you saw at mutt U was the insidious form of racism many of us on here yammer about, the soft bigotry of low expectations. I hate this is a Bush term, because he was such a mealy mouthed politician. It’s this form of prejudicial bias where human beings are subconsciously ingrained with preconceptions regarding segments of our population that result in interactions, policies, decisions, etc being made which have the result of passively restraining people from attaining success. This type of mindset is borne out of & sustained/exacerbated by continuing efforts to try to level outcomes across the population instead of trying to level opportunities.

When I was growing up a close friend of mine’s ancestry included Nubians hence he was much more dark skinned than me by a long shot & certainly much more than the predominantly blue collar massively liberal Irish & Italian immigrant neighborhood I grew up in. The next town over was half African American & the other half was Polish and German American. He got the nickname N****, told to move next town over, etc on a daily basis. It was tough on him but he persevered & graduated top of our class, went to Naval Academy then an Astronaut. His parents wouldn’t allow him to fight which obviously caused him other issues early on, but to their credit nobody relented and he beat them at their own game. He’s where he is at having accomplished quite a bit & they’re still for the most part where they’re at. Really funny in retrospect the 2 least white guys from conservative families have moved along & the white liberals are mostly stuck in the same crap they grew up in.

I’ve seen people’s outcomes go many different ways in my lifetime. Nearly 100% of the time it has come down to will that person work hard, persevere through adversity & have a will to succeed. Has not mattered be it that person is a professional, tradesman or something else.

 

[MWBATL]

I’ve seen people’s outcomes go many different ways in my lifetime. Nearly 100% of the time it has come down to will that person work hard, persevere through adversity & have a will to succeed. Has not mattered be it that person is a professional, tradesman or something else.

MLK said in a speech (in St. Louis, I believe) that any man who did his job with pride and to the best of his ability deserved respect. I don't recall his exact words, but it was somehting to the effect that it did not matter if you were a garbage collector or a lwayer, as long as you gave all you had with dignity and pride, you deserved respect. I have always agreed with that. When I was growing up, my little town was predominately black. (side note, none of my black friends use the term African American) I watched one black man work 8 hours in the broiling Louisiana heat and humidity building houses, then go work 8 hours as a janitor in the nearby NASA facility, day after day. That man put every one of his kids through college. Lived in a house up on stilts with an outhouse. You see folks like that, you know it comes down to determination, pride, and 'true grit'. Made a damned big impression on a semi-spoiled kid growing up....

 

[Northeast Stinger]

What you saw at mutt U was the insidious form of racism many of us on here yammer about, the soft bigotry of low expectations. I hate this is a Bush term, because he was such a mealy mouthed politician. It’s this form of prejudicial bias where human beings are subconsciously ingrained with preconceptions regarding segments of our population that result in interactions, policies, decisions, etc being made which have the result of passively restraining people from attaining success. This type of mindset is borne out of & sustained/exacerbated by continuing efforts to try to level outcomes across the population instead of trying to level opportunities.

When I was growing up a close friend of mine’s ancestry included Nubians hence he was much more dark skinned than me by a long shot & certainly much more than the predominantly blue collar massively liberal Irish & Italian immigrant neighborhood I grew up in. The next town over was half African American & the other half was Polish and German American. He got the nickname N****, told to move next town over, etc on a daily basis. It was tough on him but he persevered & graduated top of our class, went to Naval Academy then an Astronaut. His parents wouldn’t allow him to fight which obviously caused him other issues early on, but to their credit nobody relented and he beat them at their own game. He’s where he is at having accomplished quite a bit & they’re still for the most part where they’re at. Really funny in retrospect the 2 least white guys from conservative families have moved along & the white liberals are mostly stuck in the same crap they grew up in.

I’ve seen people’s outcomes go many different ways in my lifetime. Nearly 100% of the time it has come down to will that person work hard, persevere through adversity & have a will to succeed. Has not mattered be it that person is a professional, tradesman or something else.

Mostly agree with you. I just have a couple of guard rails from my own experience that I have to keep in mind. One is that not everyone who works hard and has integrity makes it. To me the ultimate cruelty is to tell someone who has just been crushed by life that they should have just worked harder. In the scriptures it is Job's friends who tell him in so many words that he must have done something wrong or not had enough faith or these bad things would not have happened to him. Then of course there is Ecclesiastes 9:11.

The second guard rail is summed up for me by Mark Twain who said, "Show me a self made man and I will show you a self laid egg." In short, all of us one way or another stand on someone else's shoulders. The only thing I am ashamed of in my own life is my failure to recognize sooner how many family members, teachers and friends were helping me along the way. I have gotten so much more in life than I ever deserved. My hope in my later years is to try to be a little more understanding of other people's struggles.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Just a quick comment to tell the posters in this thread how enjoyable it has been to exchange ideas and discuss matters in a civil tone and with far less rancor than I see on TV (or in some other threads). I thank those who have posted for making the tone what it has been and appreciate their efforts to keep it that way.

For my part, while I may disagree on some of these topics with my fellow Jackets in this thread, it is the essence of our country to be able to discuss..and yes, to disagree..and still hold together and go to proverbial war (and sometimes literal war) to defend each other and the right to differing views. It has sharpened me to go dig out the data and research, it has forced me to think through ideas in order to express them properly, and that is always a good thing. I would go to war with you guys.

Thank you to all.

You deserve a lot of credit for keeping the tone civil. I applaud you. I had reached the point where I was never going to talk about anything political on this site because my previous experiences had devolved into name calling. You never once made this personal and I feel like you bent over backwards to try to understand where I was coming from.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Mostly agree with you. I just have a couple of guard rails from my own experience that I have to keep in mind. One is that not everyone who works hard and has integrity makes it. To me the ultimate cruelty is to tell someone who has just been crushed by life that they should have just worked harder. In the scriptures it is Job's friends who tell him in so many words that he must have done something wrong or not had enough faith or these bad things would not have happened to him. Then of course there is Ecclesiastes 9:11.

The second guard rail is summed up for me by Mark Twain who said, "Show me a self made man and I will show you a self laid egg." In short, all of us one way or another stand on someone else's shoulders. The only thing I am ashamed of in my own life is my failure to recognize sooner how many family members, teachers and friends were helping me along the way. I have gotten so much more in life than I ever deserved. My hope in my later years is to try to be a little more understanding of other people's struggles.

You’re right not every person that works hard, is ethical, has integrity, etc is going to make it. It’s always unfortunate when that happens. You obviously believe everyone deserves an outcome. I believe everyone deserves an opportunity. Where we primarily diverge is what to do with the unfortunate failure.

My belief is that people should be contributing members to their community. When unfair adversity strikes the contributing community member or family, the community helps that person or family out. It worked in my neighborhood when I was a child. Family down the street’s father was injured, then lost his job. My Mom, among others, sent “extra” food over. I used to carry our family’s donation down there. We helped put financially as we could. It went on for years. Nobody expected the government to step in & help. We became closer neighbors as a whole from the experience and it narrowed the racial divide.

Many want government to be involved. I say it depersonalizes the situation and makes integration of the disadvantaged (who typically are in the minority) harder. It weakens the fabric of our country which is the basis for our success.

We’d all be for increased government if it worked. The only thing it works for is fattening the wallets of the people benefitting from administering the system. Few people actually get helped by the government compared to the many that pay into it.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

You’re right not every person that works hard, is ethical, has integrity, etc is going to make it. It’s always unfortunate when that happens. You obviously believe everyone deserves an outcome. I believe everyone deserves an opportunity. Where we primarily diverge is what to do with the unfortunate failure.

My belief is that people should be contributing members to their community. When unfair adversity strikes the contributing community member or family, the community helps that person or family out. It worked in my neighborhood when I was a child. Family down the street’s father was injured, then lost his job. My Mom, among others, sent “extra” food over. I used to carry our family’s donation down there. We helped put financially as we could. It went on for years. Nobody expected the government to step in & help. We became closer neighbors as a whole from the experience and it narrowed the racial divide.

Many want government to be involved. I say it depersonalizes the situation and makes integration of the disadvantaged (who typically are in the minority) harder. It weakens the fabric of our country which is the basis for our success.

We’d all be for increased government if it worked. The only thing it works for is fattening the wallets of the people benefitting from administering the system. Few people actually get helped by the government compared to the many that pay into it.

Pretty much most people agree that equality of opportunity is what we are shooting for. Outcomes are simply a clue as to whether opportunities are equal or not. When one particular group has a disproportionately bad outcome it usually means opportunity was not equal. It is rare that someone who inherits millions of dollars ends up sleeping under a bridge. So the least we can do for those who didn't inherit their place in life is provide access to education, health care and housing.

Government programs in this country created the greatest opportunity for social advancement the world has ever seen. The GI Bill alone reversed the fortunes of an entire generation. My Pell grant and student loans propelled me through college and post graduate work.

Neighborhoods like you describe are the ideal. One would wish that all neighborhoods were like that. But, alas, some times you need a different kind of neighbor. Government isn't some foreign entity or nameless stranger. It is you and me. We the people are the government. I gladly paid my social security taxes because I knew it was helping my parents. I gladly paid my property taxes because I knew that kids who would otherwise go hungry were getting a free meal in school. Admittedly it is not the "joy luck club" or the shared income pools I have seen in the Latino community but it beats nothing.

 

[LibertyTurns]

@Northeast Stinger The mutt bastards seem to be able to recruit despite a large percentage of people disliking or having extremely low regard for the very individuals that bring them athletic success. Maddening but not likely to change.

I’ll wait for another thread to pop up if anyone wants to debates the relative merits or damage from government intervention in the lives of our citizens.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

@Northeast Stinger The mutt bastards seem to be able to recruit despite a large percentage of people disliking or having extremely low regard for the very individuals that bring them athletic success. Maddening but not likely to change.

I’ll wait for another thread to pop up if anyone wants to debates the relative merits or damage from government intervention in the lives of our citizens.

And I would love to hear your take on why kids keep going to Uga to play ball when they often are not valued as human beings but simply valued for their athletic ability.