If a change is made...

[Augusta_Jacket]

@Sheboygan I agree on the measurables. My only defense of this regime is that I think way too many people undersold just how hard this transition was going to be. As I said earlier, had we went for more 3O with a CPJ disciple, we'd likely be winning 4-6 games a year on average. No one of his disciples is anywhere near as good as CPJ. Had we went with a Fritz type solution, we'd still have the OL to deal with, which would have exacerbated the situation as well. Also, had we gone with any kind of "option" coach and not won 6 games the anti-option fans would have melted immediately. I don't disagree with a lot of the direction CGC has taken this offense. I understand moving away from even the "appearance" of option. Where CGC failed most, IMO, was in putting brand before results. Yes, build a culture of family and fun, but before we start branding everything, fix the basics first.

 

[slugboy]

As with everything else, there's a lot of differening opinions. There's some things that don't connect:

a. We've increased salaries $4M YOY.
b. Debt service, often cited as a huge issue & it is has gone down by $750 with what looks like last year's restructuring odf the debt. They did something right here. Saw storm clouds & avoided them.
c. The transition perpetuated effectively by some as a 5 yr rebuild was a swiss cheese pre-loaded defense & synchs up with your above. Portal, lenient covid rules have demolished that argumment in my opinion, but it's clear it at a minimum substantially diminished it as a factor.
d. Over-reliance on boosters. This is a college football issue, but yes GT got the O'Leary-Stansbury plan favored by those that wanted the type of program that made them proud & now they are being ridiculed for it.
e. AD budget stress is a mitigating progblem, but every major leader of any organization of any size faces this. Good choices define whether you get out of it or not. Betting on a losing proposition has never, ever been successful. He's exacerbated his own issue, but has also failed to leverage fan support for support. It's there & we've seen it like the $37M Ops sugar pill or crack hit we delivered.
f. Expenses are skyrocketing. I think we're spending $5M more annually on recruiting, our salary above went up as has $7M in general and administrative expenses. We're spending $13M more annually over and will be $18M more with no icrease in the debt service. We can blame it on deby because we'd be better off without the $13M expense, but that $18M is extra expenditures mostly on the football team likely.
g. Injuries play a part, but again there's the portal. We're just not interesting high upside kids & are getting those coming off injuries or riskier players. Not the pond we should be fishing in.

There's a lot of there there. One man's in charge & that's the AD. The buck stops at him. It's the unfortunate reality of being in charge.

The transfer portal wasn’t nearly as big a factor when the contract was written as it is now. It was written for a landscape where maybe 1 or 2 players transfer in a year.

Everything makes sense. It’s a “we’re all in on transitioning from the option” contract. It’s based on a world where you recruit from high school and athletes stay for 4 or 5 years. It does two things

1. Penalize the athletic department for giving up early. It’s like a program where you agree to give $1000 to a charity you hate unless you lose 30 pounds by next July. We’ve done the equivalent of gaining 30 pounds instead, and we’re trying to welch on the deal. When you see financial terms, think of them in terms of penalizing the AA for changing course.
2. Drive us to give full support to the coaching staff. Before Collins, Johnson was starved for resources. The contract does the equivalent of Cortes burning his ships behind him—we’re committed, so make sure Collins has everything he needs for high school recruiting.

The landscape changed, but you can’t consider those changes unless you expect the AD to be clairvoyant.

Also, when you say that the buck stops with Stansbury, remember that we’re here because he set in motion a plan to accomplish what the fans demanded. If you want to avoid the current situation, you need an AD who can look at the fans and boosters and say “I know better than you and we’re doing it my way”.

And boy would we howl about that.

We keep blaming ADs when we, as fans, keep doing the things that keep us from being successful as a program. The buck stops with us.

 

[bobongo]

Because you are still not admitting two things can be true at the same time. People who make their living at football told me 4-6 years. I tend to believe them over people on the internet who "have a hard time believing" it. Now, I've explained before, OL is a process of recruiting, development, and building chemistry on the line. These things take time. If CGC were a wunderkind, he might have had results in 3 years. Since he's obviously not, we would most likely see the results in years 5-6. However, since CGC has demonstrated his inability to coach other aspects of the team, we are likely to have a new coach next year. Said coach will reap the benefit of us being 4 years into OL rebuild, barring key members of the OL portaling out.

As for the OL being in worse shape, it's better than the 2019 OL, but not by much. It looks worse because we are actually trying to pass more now than we did in 2019.

And again, don't read this as an excuse for keeping CGC. He has just about gotten himself fired. We will still be transitioning next year though. Hopefully with a better coach, we will be able to shorten the length of it. The new coach will have more talent suited for his offense than CGC had, though.

Of course two things can be true at the same time, but in there's an expiration date on the other one and it's expired IMO. The line could have and should have been built by now, or at least we should be seeing signs of progress. We've seen regression, if anything.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

but in there's an expiration date on the other one and it's expired IMO

According to YOUR opinion. Gotcha.

In that case I'm gonna go with the opinion of actual football coaches that I have spoken with. Seems a lot more credible to me.

 

[slugboy]

I generally agree with you, but in this case I have to disagree. I don’t think we HAD to have a 3O coach - only one who employed a lot of option concepts. Someone who ran a variant of Urban Meyers offense would have done much better.

That’s a lot like the offense we have now. However, Meyer’s offense isn’t Leach’s offense—Meyer’s offense uses the same kind of line we’re trying to build now.

@Augusta_Jacket , I agree with your HS coach friends. It there is something that I’m frustrated with TStan about, it’s that he didn’t push Collins effectively to fix the defense, and watched him work on the offense for three years.

 

[ibeattetris]

Transitioning our offense doesn’t explain why our defense has been a complete and total disaster. Our offense and defense were nearly tied in 2019 (94 v 93), within 4 rank of each other in 2020 (92 v 88), and had a way worse defense in 2021 (78 vs 112).

Our offense WAS improving the past three seasons, the issue was our coach who was supposed to be a defensive specialist was trotting our defenses that were a mess. There really is no excuse to win the number of games we did apart from the shortened 2020 season. Blaming CPJ and an offensive transition is very reductionist

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Transitioning our offense doesn’t explain why our defense has been a complete and total disaster. Our offense and defense were nearly tied in 2019 (94 v 93), within 4 rank of each other in 2020 (92 v 88), and had a way worse defense in 2021 (78 vs 112).

Our offense WAS improving the past three seasons, the issue was our coach who was supposed to be a defensive specialist was trotting our defenses that were a mess. There really is no excuse to win the number of games we did apart from the shortened 2020 season. Blaming CPJ and an offensive transition is very reductionist

To a point. I agree that the defense is atrocious and should be a LOT better. Games like the Clemson game this year are mostly the O's fault since they couldn't sustain drives and keep the D off the field, leading to a gassed D. While the O was equally as bad/worse in the Ole Miss game, the D didn't play nearly as well either. With that being said, even in transition with the O failing, our D shouldn't have been the dumpster fire it has been the last 2+ seasons.

Second, no one here is blaming CPJ. Not a single person. It's not CPJs fault we are now running a completely different system, and I of all people understand that. It doesn't make the transition any less real or painful though.

 

[bobongo]

According to YOUR opinion. Gotcha.

In that case I'm gonna go with the opinion of actual football coaches that I have spoken with. Seems a lot more credible to me.

I've acknowledged there's a transition period but even if it's accepted that it could last "4-6 years", we're in year 4 with no progress. Zero. The excuses have expired. Had we been making progress, that would be one thing. But we've made none and that's quite another.

 

[bobongo]

The buck stops with us.

That's a new one. I'll have to go look in the mirror and see whether I concur that it's my fault.

 

[684Bee]

That's a new one. I'll have to go look in the mirror and see whether I concur that it's my fault.

It’s true. Not enough donors. It’s simply not important enough to enough people for us to compete the way we want to.

 

[bobongo]

It’s true. Not enough donors. It’s simply not important enough to enough people for us to compete the way we want to.

No, there's plenty of money if it were just directed to the right place. A little less for the Edge Center and a little more for recruiting and coaches would go a long way.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

I've acknowledged there's a transition period but even if it's accepted that it could last "4-6 years", we're in year 4 with no progress. Zero. The excuses have expired. Had we been making progress, that would be one thing. But we've made none and that's quite another.

It's like you're missing the point on purpose...

No one said his excuses were valid. I said there was indeed a very real and painful transition in response to this quote of yours:

Well, I guess. This "transition" crap is wildly overblown, IMO.

Also, the OL should still be in transition, per people who actually coach football, which it obviously is..

That doesn't matter to you, because you've established that you make your judgements based on your opinion. That's your prerogative.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

No, there's plenty of money if it were just directed to the right place. A little less for the Edge Center and a little more for recruiting and coaches would go a long way.

I don't know how many times it has to be said, but designated funds cannot be legally redirected.

 

[bobongo]

I don't know how many times it has to be said, but designated funds cannot be legally redirected.

And I don't know how many times I've said I know that but the funds need to be DONATED to the right place to begin with. We've already been over this and you're being obtuse on purpose.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

And I don't know how many times I've said I know that but the funds need to be DONATED to the right place to begin with. We've already been over this and you're being obtuse on purpose.

The funds are already donated. They were planned when NIL wasn't a thing. We have been over it and it was explained to you then. You just don't like the answer.

 

[bobongo]

The funds are already donated. They were planned when NIL wasn't a thing. We have been over it and it was explained to you then. You just don't like the answer.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz. I know the funds are already donated. Duh, more obtuseness. My point is they should have been donated to the right place to begin with and I said that way before anyone ever heard of NIL, that too many funds are going to these buildings and not enough directly to recruiting and coaches' salaries. Said that way, way back there. This back and forth has become tiresome. Take your own advice and relegate it to PM. I'm done here.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

All I’m hearing are excuses.

 

[bobongo]

I said there was indeed a very real and painful transition

Yes, the operative word is, "was". It's over.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Yes, the operative word is, "was". It's over.

I thought you said you were taking this to pms?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

That Wake Forest coach is pretty good, huh?

Seems he always gets his players playing at the peak of their ability.