How do we feel about our wide receivers?

stylee

Ramblin' Wreck
Featured Member
Messages
603
In 2009, we were 119 of 120 in completion %, completing 46.4%. We were 1st in yards/attempt (efficiency) at 10.6 ypa and 12th in Passer Rating, at 149.6. In 2011, we were 115th in completion percentage and 1st in ypa at 11.1 and 14th in passer rating.

So, you and those who absolutely agree with you are just factually wrong.

This is what I mean by *mostly* right.
Efficiency > Completion Percentage.
But they're not entirely exclusive. If Nesbitt has been at 25% in 2009, we wouldn't have gotten anything done. You need to be able to punish cheating defenses to some extent. In 2008, UGA was worried about Bebe - enough that we were able to run for however many yards we got.

It's about the potential of the deep burn.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,967
Techster is mostly accurate here.
We need to be better. Consistently better.

I'll take what we had in 2009 in passing efficiency - but we had an All-Pro WR that year.
So it's on the coaches to figure out how to make what we've got now into an efficient passing group without a D. Thomas. Can J. Thomas show enough with his am that safeties can't cheat into the alley?

It can be done. We're not without tools - Smelter, Waller, and Bostic are all, at a minimum, capable receivers. CPJ and Cook need to coach JT into being an efficient passer. That's the meat of their jobs - it's not the Playstion "pick the right play" thing, because X's and O's are comparatively easy - it's about teaching kids to recognize coverages, see leverage, understand blitz looks. It's on Sewak to teach pass pro technique, blitz looks, stunts.

Vad represented something - a real arm in a triple option offense. I don't know if anyone's seen that since T. Ham. He's gone now - and it's important that Justin becomes at least a threat in the passing game.

I don't think anybody disagrees that we need to get better and consistently better. However, that was not Techster's only point. He seemed to be responding to Whiskey Clear's post claiming that completion % was not the most important stat. Read within context, his post seems to be mostly inaccurate to me. His first paragraph - False. His second paragraph - False. His third paragraph - beside the point. His fourth paragraph - an attack on CPJ which the 2009, 2011, and 2012 seasons contradict. His fifth paragraph is true as far as it goes but doesn't support his reaction against WhiskeyClear's point.
 

Jacket in Dairyland

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,053
I think the problem with our passing game can be laid mostly on the OL. Most of them were in primarily run oriented schemes in HS and they have not improved their pass blocking much since they came to GT. Usually our QB seems to be running for his life, locks onto one receiver, who gets covered quickly, and it becomes a jump ball. They have no time to look off a receiver, or double clutch a throw. We will not upset better teams until they respect our passing game. At this point, I am not optimistic about next year on that. The receivers are very slightly above average, but without better OL protection , they barely have time to finish their routes.
 

Mack

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,361
Techster is mostly accurate here.
We need to be better. Consistently better.

I'll take what we had in 2009 in passing efficiency - but we had an All-Pro WR that year.
So it's on the coaches to figure out how to make what we've got now into an efficient passing group without a D. Thomas. Can J. Thomas show enough with his am that safeties can't cheat into the alley?

It can be done. We're not without tools - Smelter, Waller, and Bostic are all, at a minimum, capable receivers. CPJ and Cook need to coach JT into being an efficient passer. That's the meat of their jobs - it's not the Playstion "pick the right play" thing, because X's and O's are comparatively easy - it's about teaching kids to recognize coverages, see leverage, understand blitz looks. It's on Sewak to teach pass pro technique, blitz looks, stunts.

Vad represented something - a real arm in a triple option offense. I don't know if anyone's seen that since T. Ham. He's gone now - and it's important that Justin becomes at least a threat in the passing game.
I think we throw better but we have to run the pattern with crisp cuts..I dont care about efficentcy and percentage if we can complete some at the right time.We all know the more we run the open the pass but like you said it takes time to pass block so lets get it on..I think we throw early slants and we can bust them with our WRS...we shall see.
 

Mack

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,361
Um, completion percentage is part of passing efficiency equation. Therefore the lower the completion percentage, the lower the passing efficiency.

People, I totally disagree with the "As long as we're more efficient, passing completion doesn't matter." Think about that statement, and how it contradicts itself. You know what a sub 50% completion percentage says to me? It says we're unsuccessful less than 50% of the time we try to pass. Sure, you'd rather have a 20+ yard gain off a pass rather than 4-5 yard gain, but how effective are we 20+ yards down the field? I can promise it's not succesfull anywhere near 45% of the time.

I pointed this out in another thread, but you can be highly efficient with a high completion percentage. In fact, the modern day passing game is based of huge "chunk" plays down the field in combination with a high completion percentage. Look at the best passing attacks in the nation (TX A&M, Baylor, Clemson, FSU, etc.). Not only are they leading the nation in being "efficient", but they're also completing around 60%+ of their passes. You can have your cake and eat it when it comes to completion % and efficiency.

CPJ may defend his passing by talking about efficiency, and it's clear a lot of people on here are buying it, but until he puts a credible passing attack on the field CONSISTENTLY, I'm more apt to believe it's "coach speak" in defending a dismal passing game. Facts are, if you look at the history of CPJ's passing game, it's been far from efficient or successful consistently for almost 2 decades now.

Listen, we're a running team. So we're not going to put up big passing numbers. That's not our thing. I get it. BUT, we can be better at passing the ball, and to me that starts with actually getting the ball from the QB to receiver more often. Right now, we're doing it less than 50% of the time.
One thing was clear this year..if we passed on first down odds were we would have to punt since we seemed to come up with third and six most of the time.If we are going to run this offense we have to air it out some..PJ has done this before with Ham etc but to me we throw the slant and the intermediate yd pass rather than the bomb which usually means second and ten..You can play with percentages completed etc anyway you want to ...my take is how good are the completeions and when did we throw..Did we throw and complete to get out of a whole or what..If we did finish at less than fifty I guess my idea is tell me how good were the passes we completed.......WE dont throw what 20 times a game so my hope is JT can hit somebody next year and open up the nine man defenses we seem to run agains.t
 

gtg936g

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,061
We have several issues with passing.

First, our wide splits make it harder for our linemen to properly protect IMO.

Second, our QB did not make good decisions when he had protection. There were many cases where the D dropped a lot of guys deep, and the QB could have ran for the down and distance.

Third, our QB either did not trust the check down or did not go through his progressions.

Fourth, when our backs do not release they have not done a good job at picking up their blocks.

I understand the wide splits when we want to catch the D by surprise, but I wish we would vary the splits when we are in an obvious passing situation. The rest of the issues are due to lack of focus, or mental maturity.
 

Jacket in Dairyland

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,053
gtg936g, I agree with you that there are a myriad of factors that contribute. It's the typical " if it's not one thing it's the other". To me that speaks to the mental maturity/ focus you mentioned. Like I said, I'm not very optimistic that we can bring all that together next year.
 

Boomergump

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
3,260
Everybody is right to a degree. I will never argue against higher completion percentage, but by the same token, if we are not threatening a defense deep, we aren't really supporting the run game, which is our bread and butter. My biggest desire is to complete more passes when it really matters, like moving the sticks and keeping a drive alive, or 2 minute drill. To me, completion percentage is a lot like batting average in baseball. Give me 5 timely hits in a game over 10 hits when nobody is in scoring position. When they happen, in a contest, matters. We haven't completed enough of those clutch throws, regardless of what the actual percentage comes out to.
 

stylee

Ramblin' Wreck
Featured Member
Messages
603
Exactly.
If we were hitting 70%, we would likely not be attempting a high proportion of deep passes. If that were the case, we'd probably be suffering in the run game. That would only be ok if we were throwing a much higher number of passes.

So while % and efficiency aren't mutually exclusive, the latter is almost an end to itself while the former isn't close to that.

If Vad had attempted the same number this year and completed 10% more, we'd probably have scored a lot more points...unless they were all 3 yard dump offs to A-Backs.

Context
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,692
In 2009, we were 119 of 120 in completion %, completing 46.4%. We were 1st in yards/attempt (efficiency) at 10.6 ypa and 12th in Passer Rating, at 149.6. In 2011, we were 115th in completion percentage and 1st in ypa at 11.1 and 14th in passer rating.

So, you and those who absolutely agree with you are just factually wrong.

I knew someone was going to quote those misleading stats.

That's pretty much why I left this out:

2009Rating Outcome
Jax St 192.2 W 37-17
Clemson 42.7 W 30-27
Miami 136.5 L 17-33
UNC 131.6 W 24-7
Miss St 261.7 W 42-31
FSU 228.8 W 49-44
VT 46.9 W 28-23
UVA 139.3 W 34-9
Vandy 221.6 W 56-31
Wake For 44.9 W 30-27
Duke 289.9 W 49-10
UGA 172 L 30-24
Clem 148.3 W 39-34
Iowa 11.2 L 14-24


2011 Rating Outcome
W. Car. 312.8 W 63-21
MTSU 357.2 W 49-21
Kansas 348.2 W 66-24
UNC 191.1 W35-28
NC St 170.2 W 45-35
Maryland 71.5 W 21-16
UVA 0.2 L 21-24
Miami 77.4 L 7-24
Clemson 78.2 W 31-17
VT 131.5 L 26-37
Duke 165.7 W 38-31
UGA 18.6 L 17-31
Utah 172.1 L 27-30

2013 Rating Outcome
Elon 268 W 70-0
Duke 185.6 L 14-38
UNC 158.6 W 28-20
VT 62.9 L 10-17
Miami 63.8 L 30-45
BYU 80.9 L 20-38 JT (4/4 1 TD 245.5)
Syracuse 456.4 W 56-0
UVA 146 W 35-25
Pitt 120.6 W 21-10
Clemson 108.1 L 31-55 JT (2/3 1 TD 142.3)
AL A&M 66.9 W 66-7 JT (1/2 0TD 201.2)
UGA 143.9 L 34-41
Ole Miss 109.7 L 17-25

For the stats above, I quoted the QB that attempted the most passes since I couldn't find a site with total efficiency for each team per game.

2009 is definitely CPJ's most consistent passing year. There were some very low lows, but our passing attack also delivered against some stout competition (FSU, UGA). I won't even say it's because we had BeyBey because CPJ took advantage of him and that's what good coaches do...they take advantage of good players. That's what good coaches do with their passing offense.

In 2011 Tevin started ON FIRE against some pretty putrid competition, then when the competition increased, our passing game took a nosedive.

2013 is pretty self explanatory.

I think I am being pretty accurate when I say CPJ has a hard time CONSISTENTLY fielding a good passing game. Our stats are pumped up against the lower tier teams, and when we need a passing attack to help us win, the passing game fails us. The stats above bear that out. I just love when I point out how other teams can be highly accurate AND efficient and someone says it's "beside the point" because it doesn't fit their motive.

People can defend CPJ's passing however they want. But our record and inability to keep the good defenses honest and make them pay for stacking the box against us bears it out. No one respects our passing game, and that ultimately speaks more about our passing than any pumped up efficiency rating anyone wants to quote.
 

ATL1

Helluva Engineer
Messages
7,377
One thing was clear this year..if we passed on first down odds were we would have to punt since we seemed to come up with third and six most of the time.If we are going to run this offense we have to air it out some..PJ has done this before with Ham etc but to me we throw the slant and the intermediate yd pass rather than the bomb which usually means second and ten..You can play with percentages completed etc anyway you want to ...my take is how good are the completeions and when did we throw..Did we throw and complete to get out of a whole or what..If we did finish at less than fifty I guess my idea is tell me how good were the passes we completed.......WE dont throw what 20 times a game so my hope is JT can hit somebody next year and open up the nine man defenses we seem to run agains.t
I knew someone was going to quote those misleading stats.

That's pretty much why I left this out:

2009Rating Outcome
Jax St 192.2 W 37-17
Clemson 42.7 W 30-27
Miami 136.5 L 17-33
UNC 131.6 W 24-7
Miss St 261.7 W 42-31
FSU 228.8 W 49-44
VT 46.9 W 28-23
UVA 139.3 W 34-9
Vandy 221.6 W 56-31
Wake For 44.9 W 30-27
Duke 289.9 W 49-10
UGA 172 L 30-24
Clem 148.3 W 39-34
Iowa 11.2 L 14-24


2011 Rating Outcome
W. Car. 312.8 W 63-21
MTSU 357.2 W 49-21
Kansas 348.2 W 66-24
UNC 191.1 W35-28
NC St 170.2 W 45-35
Maryland 71.5 W 21-16
UVA 0.2 L 21-24
Miami 77.4 L 7-24
Clemson 78.2 W 31-17
VT 131.5 L 26-37
Duke 165.7 W 38-31
UGA 18.6 L 17-31
Utah 172.1 L 27-30

2013 Rating Outcome
Elon 268 W 70-0
Duke 185.6 L 14-38
UNC 158.6 W 28-20
VT 62.9 L 10-17
Miami 63.8 L 30-45
BYU 80.9 L 20-38 JT (4/4 1 TD 245.5)
Syracuse 456.4 W 56-0
UVA 146 W 35-25
Pitt 120.6 W 21-10
Clemson 108.1 L 31-55 JT (2/3 1 TD 142.3)
AL A&M 66.9 W 66-7 JT (1/2 0TD 201.2)
UGA 143.9 L 34-41
Ole Miss 109.7 L 17-25

For the stats above, I quoted the QB that attempted the most passes since I couldn't find a site with total efficiency for each team per game.

2009 is definitely CPJ's most consistent passing year. There were some very low lows, but our passing attack also delivered against some stout competition (FSU, UGA). I won't even say it's because we had BeyBey because CPJ took advantage of him and that's what good coaches do...they take advantage of good players. That's what good coaches do with their passing offense.

In 2011 Tevin started ON FIRE against some pretty putrid competition, then when the competition increased, our passing game took a nosedive.

2013 is pretty self explanatory.

I think I am being pretty accurate when I say CPJ has a hard time CONSISTENTLY fielding a good passing game. Our stats are pumped up against the lower tier teams, and when we need a passing attack to help us win, the passing game fails us. The stats above bear that out. I just love when I point out how other teams can be highly accurate AND efficient and someone says it's "beside the point" because it doesn't fit their motive.

People can defend CPJ's passing however they want. But our record and inability to keep the good defenses honest and make them pay for stacking the box against us bears it out. No one respects our passing game, and that ultimately speaks more about our passing than any pumped up efficiency rating anyone wants to quote.

This has got to be AllGT from the other board??
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,967
I knew someone was going to quote those misleading stats.

That's pretty much why I left this out:

2009Rating Outcome
Jax St 192.2 W 37-17
Clemson 42.7 W 30-27
Miami 136.5 L 17-33
UNC 131.6 W 24-7
Miss St 261.7 W 42-31
FSU 228.8 W 49-44
VT 46.9 W 28-23
UVA 139.3 W 34-9
Vandy 221.6 W 56-31
Wake For 44.9 W 30-27
Duke 289.9 W 49-10
UGA 172 L 30-24
Clem 148.3 W 39-34
Iowa 11.2 L 14-24


2011 Rating Outcome
W. Car. 312.8 W 63-21
MTSU 357.2 W 49-21
Kansas 348.2 W 66-24
UNC 191.1 W35-28
NC St 170.2 W 45-35
Maryland 71.5 W 21-16
UVA 0.2 L 21-24
Miami 77.4 L 7-24
Clemson 78.2 W 31-17
VT 131.5 L 26-37
Duke 165.7 W 38-31
UGA 18.6 L 17-31
Utah 172.1 L 27-30

2013 Rating Outcome
Elon 268 W 70-0
Duke 185.6 L 14-38
UNC 158.6 W 28-20
VT 62.9 L 10-17
Miami 63.8 L 30-45
BYU 80.9 L 20-38 JT (4/4 1 TD 245.5)
Syracuse 456.4 W 56-0
UVA 146 W 35-25
Pitt 120.6 W 21-10
Clemson 108.1 L 31-55 JT (2/3 1 TD 142.3)
AL A&M 66.9 W 66-7 JT (1/2 0TD 201.2)
UGA 143.9 L 34-41
Ole Miss 109.7 L 17-25

For the stats above, I quoted the QB that attempted the most passes since I couldn't find a site with total efficiency for each team per game.

2009 is definitely CPJ's most consistent passing year. There were some very low lows, but our passing attack also delivered against some stout competition (FSU, UGA). I won't even say it's because we had BeyBey because CPJ took advantage of him and that's what good coaches do...they take advantage of good players. That's what good coaches do with their passing offense.

In 2011 Tevin started ON FIRE against some pretty putrid competition, then when the competition increased, our passing game took a nosedive.

2013 is pretty self explanatory.

I think I am being pretty accurate when I say CPJ has a hard time CONSISTENTLY fielding a good passing game. Our stats are pumped up against the lower tier teams, and when we need a passing attack to help us win, the passing game fails us. The stats above bear that out. I just love when I point out how other teams can be highly accurate AND efficient and someone says it's "beside the point" because it doesn't fit their motive.

People can defend CPJ's passing however they want. But our record and inability to keep the good defenses honest and make them pay for stacking the box against us bears it out. No one respects our passing game, and that ultimately speaks more about our passing than any pumped up efficiency rating anyone wants to quote.

Everyone agrees that our passing needs to get consistently better. I am not satisfied with what it has been either.

I was responding against your mistakes of fact. The stats I cited are not misleading. They explicitly refute your claim of fact with respect to efficiency and completion %.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,692
Everyone agrees that our passing needs to get consistently better. I am not satisfied with what it has been either.

I was responding against your mistakes of fact. The stats I cited are not misleading. They explicitly refute your claim of fact with respect to efficiency and completion %.

Right.

I think the readers here are smart enough to understand the breakdown themselves. If I would have included the passing stats during those games, it would have illuminated how much more inaccurate and inefficient we've been.

In 2011, Tevin went 8/13 for 271 yards and 3 TDs against W. Carolina. Rating of 312.8
Later in the season, in a loss against UVA, he went 2/8 for 24 yards and two INTs with a rating of 0.2 (yes, that's not a typo)
Yet if you combine the two, Tevin's efficiency rating would still be well up there because it was pumped up so much against a weaker team. Those are the facts speak more to our efficiency than just spouting off numbers from the NCAA stat sheet for the year. That's been the pattern of our passing game efficiency since CPJ has gotten. Sure there's an expected dropoff in production when competition increases, but good teams production don't dropoff like our passing game has.

So I'll let the breakdown of games speak for themselves whether what you posted was misleading.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,967
Right.

I think the readers here are smart enough to understand the breakdown themselves. If I would have included the passing stats during those games, it would have illuminated how much more inaccurate and inefficient we've been.

In 2011, Tevin went 8/13 for 271 yards and 3 TDs against W. Carolina. Rating of 312.8
Later in the season, in a loss against UVA, he went 2/8 for 24 yards and two INTs with a rating of 0.2 (yes, that's not a typo)
Yet if you combine the two, Tevin's efficiency rating would still be well up there because it was pumped up so much against a weaker team. Those are the facts speak more to our efficiency than just spouting off numbers from the NCAA stat sheet for the year. That's been the pattern of our passing game efficiency since CPJ has gotten. Sure there's an expected dropoff in production when competition increases, but good teams production don't dropoff like our passing game has.

So I'll let the breakdown of games speak for themselves whether what you posted was misleading.

My post was not in disagreement with this. I was responding simply to your factually false claims about the relationship between comp% and efficiency
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,692
My post was not in disagreement with this. I was responding simply to your factually false claims about the relationship between comp% and efficiency

No, you've simply lost the plot.

You need to re-read my OP. Obviously you would rather make this about just two stats, when the overiding message in my OP went deeper than just completion percentage and efficiency ranking on the stat sheets. Everyone else got it.

Your reaction to my OP is symptomatic of some GT fans. When someone tries to explain a root cause of a weakness on the team, you'd rather point to some misleading stats. It's obvious who gets the plot (or understands the passing game) and who doesn't.

Anyhow, I'm done here.
 

alaguy

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,117
Techster is mostly accurate here.
We need to be better. Consistently better.

I'll take what we had in 2009 in passing efficiency - but we had an All-Pro WR that year.
So it's on the coaches to figure out how to make what we've got now into an efficient passing group without a D. Thomas. Can J. Thomas show enough with his am that safeties can't cheat into the alley?

It can be done. We're not without tools - Smelter, Waller, and Bostic are all, at a minimum, capable receivers. CPJ and Cook need to coach JT into being an efficient passer. That's the meat of their jobs - it's not the Playstion "pick the right play" thing, because X's and O's are comparatively easy - it's about teaching kids to recognize coverages, see leverage, understand blitz looks. It's on Sewak to teach pass pro technique, blitz looks, stunts.

Vad represented something - a real arm in a triple option offense. I don't know if anyone's seen that since T. Ham. He's gone now - and it's important that Justin becomes at least a threat in the passing game.

absolutely,there is a" bit" of difference between BeyBey and our present WRs,not to mention difference in RBs which helped the pass game A LOT. yeah,87 I would be happy enough with '09 OFFense--since OBVIOUSLY we don't have same talent ,we might try to be more consistent in passing,like the complete %
 
Top