GT vs Wake, Friday 3/5, 8 PM, ACCN

[jacketup]

I agree with the positive comments about Howard. He looks athletic enough to be an important contributor next year--after he has more of Coach Reveno's instruction. Think about how far Wright has come.

 

[BurdellJacket]

Great win. For everyone whining about how we did not look our best— not sure if folks realize how hard it is to win 6 ACC games in a row. Pretty sure no other team did that this year.

So right! Only Tech fans can kvetch after winning 6 straight ACC games. What the ........ ?

 

[lv20gt]

Great question to CJP would be is he going to entertain changing the offense scheme to fit the personnel he has next season. There are several other new comers that likely play a lot (Deebo in particular) - so should scheme change to fit personnel/skills we have next few years?

Well, offense in basketball isn't as strict as in football for instance because it's more based on ideas and concepts than designed plays (as a base). Often the skills of the players will naturally mold the scheme to fit them within reason. So for instance we could see more emphasis being put on creating jump shots vs driving lanes because of guys like Kelly and Coleman, but it wouldn't really change the scheme too much. Same with I would guess Kyle might be a bit more ball dominant than Jose who also is good offball. Howard plays a good bit different than Moses but not so much that the scheme would have to change all that much. We'd just need time to get used to the different dynamic. Same thing with Saba. But that's what pre-season and (hopefully) easy OOC games are for. Adjusting to the new dynamics.

Now, the one thing that probably would require a fairly big scheme overhaul is if we wanted to go two bigs with Saba and Howard, but even then we could probably run it similar to what we did last year with Moses and Banks in the back half of our schedule.

Regardless with so many players moving on and new pieces next year will be interesting no matter what. Hopefully good interesting.

 

[CuseJacket]

 

[lv20gt]

No matter how often I hear him speak I am never ready for Jose's accent. It always catches me off guard and by now it really shouldn't.

 

[gt24]

I don't think Howard is likely to give us huge contributions or anything, and may not play much at all. But both his shots came off of good penetration where he got the ball in such a great position that tougher big men wouldn't have had much of a chance to make an impact. It was kinda like Miami where he had a couple plays where he basically did what Moses does a lot and finish dump offs right at the rim. I don't think right now he gives us anything in regards to creating his own shot like Moses can, but I think what we saw against Wake is something he could do against most teams, if we are able to have that kind of penetration. I think what the opponent being wake did was make Pastner confident he could get away with playing Howard because we could more reliably expect to be able to go on a run or two to take control of the game against them than say clemson or duke.

I think a bigger thing holding him back from contributing going forward is that this team isn't really set up for a true center especially with Moses + a true center on either end of the floor. It's hard for a guy to play when he fits a role that the team doesn't usually use and by putting him in the team needs to adjust to a pretty big change in dynamics that also affects them.

agree with all of this. 1st part and 2nd part. would add that both of his buckets were setup/created by kyle. howard only needed to get to his spot catch and dunk. good for him for doing his job because that is his only job at this point on the offensive end.

i definitely see progress in howard this season. kudos to him and the coaches. go back and watch his december games. yikes. not talking stats or points, just watching him off-ball and on-ball defensively and offensively... but the progress in-season has been baby steps. and that is reasonable given the circumstances. and it is a good sign for larger growth this offseason. i dont expect massive offseason growth, but i can see him being ready to be a serviceable/respectable 5-man next year. the key i think will be his defense and rebounding because i do not think either is strong enough right now. they have improved enough to warrant ~2 minutes ATO to spell moses against *some* matchups. imho, any fans in january calling for more minutes for howard (concerns about moses might get tired, etc) did not watch howard closely in december.

one thing i am curious about for next year: i know it is limited/small sample size, but watching howard play the 5-spot in our princeton offense this year he did not look like a good fit. need a 5-man with good passing skills and vision. i saw a 5-man very uncomfortable away from the low post. i did not track #s because it is such a small and erratic sample size, but it looked to me like when howard was in games the 2nd half of the season, we were much more likely to run DDM instead of Princeton. this allowed howard to sit in the dunker spot with virtually no responsibilities for reading the defense, offensive decision making, passing to cutters, etc.

otoh, those who know saba's skillset from HS/AAU say he has some solid perimeter skills. idk because i did not follow any of his prep career, but if that is true, it will be interesting to see how saba and howard are used in our offenses down the road. it would suggest saba is a better fit for our Princeton stuff. although i suspect Pastner's decision on each of them (and meka!) will be 70% defense and rebounding, 25% ability to avoid offensive turnovers, and 5% ability to convert easy offensive buckets created by our guards and wings.

ETA: just read @glandon1960 post and apoogize for repeating alot of what he said. sorry. did not see it initially.

 

[alagold]

Well said - last years team improved dramatically when they scrapped the motion offense (center distributing ball from high post) to one with more pick/roll focused because James Banks was liability on offense at high post (he was not in low post or in pick/roll or on defense). Howard would struggle to play high post distributor consistently and is no threat to create his own shot like Moses is from there. I think Saba has more potential to do this, but not sure if he has developed enough - TBD what full off season with Coach Rev will do for hin.

If the personnel do not fit an offensive scheme, you can not run it a lot. Evidence the pre-Hawaii trip games last season. Great question to CJP would be is he going to entertain changing the offense scheme to fit the personnel he has next season. There are several other new comers that likely play a lot (Deebo in particular) - so should scheme change to fit personnel/skills we have next few years?

Offense is one thing but DEF is another problem.Right now all we have is 2 big guys who MAY get in someones way near the basket and 10 fouls to take.Lots of false out of position steps and misalignments there now.

 

[lv20gt]

Offense is one thing but DEF is another problem.Right now all we have is 2 big guys who MAY get in someones way near the basket and 10 fouls to take.Lots of false out of position steps and misalignments there now.

Right now both of them only ever get in the game sparingly and when they do almost never for an amount of time that lets them really get acclimated and settled in. Of course they will be misteps and the like in that situation. That is a very different situation to getting 25+ minutes a game and getting settled in with experience.

 

[MidtownJacket]

Right now both of them only ever get in the game sparingly and when they do almost never for an amount of time that lets them really get acclimated and settled in. Of course they will be misteps and the like in that situation. That is a very different situation to getting 25+ minutes a game and getting settled in with experience.

I also think we will see a shift away from some of the base theories in our 1-3-1 base set if we don’t have such experienced guards and add a legit 5-spot guy to the defense.

 

[gt24]

I also think we will see a shift away from some of the base theories in our 1-3-1 base set if we don’t have such experienced guards and add a legit 5-spot guy to the defense.

this point you raise is fascinating to think about. knee jerk reaction: hard to imagine pastner moving away from the matchup/hybrid 23/131 zone. as one of the game announcers mentioned recently: it's been 5 years and most of the acc still has not figured out how to attack it with consistent success.

g kyle 6'2 200#
g mike 6'5 200#
g deebo 6'6 210#
f usher 6'7 215# and f khalid 6'7 200#
f/c: meka 6'8 or howard 6'10 or saba 7'1

even without howard or saba, a "small ball" lineup with those guys is not so small anywhere except at the 5 spot. can imagine very disruptive zone and m2m defenses with so much length and athleticism. we've seen it at times this year with usher at the "5" and 4 guards (including bubba and jose at the same time for a lineup that some have labeled "tiny ball")

also "fun" to think about jalon moore and miles kelly - 6'6" and 6'5" more length and athleticism on the wings that can presumably guard multiple positions m2m and can be very disruptive in our hybrid zone.

 

[lv20gt]

I'm not worried about team defense. Every year under Pastner we've had good to great defenses. This year a lot of people were expecting us to drop off and we aren't as good overall last year, but still good, and have switched up styles to be a lot more steal oriented. I fully trust this staff the staff to have the team playing effective defense in some form or fashion. Whether it's with a super small ball or with going twin towers.

 

[gt24]

I'm not worried about team defense. Every year under Pastner we've had good to great defenses. This year a lot of people were expecting us to drop off and we aren't as good overall last year, but still good, and have switched up styles to be a lot more steal oriented. I fully trust this staff the staff to have the team playing effective defense in some form or fashion. Whether it's with a super small ball or with going twin towers.

agree. and one consistent aspect over five years has been the zone. correct? wouldn't every ACC coach label that as part of our identity?

 

[lv20gt]

agree. and one consistent aspect over five years has been the zone. correct? wouldn't every ACC coach label that as part of our identity?

I'd argue most coaches would call our defensive identity as being utilizing multiple looks, including several types of zones. I would expect us to utilize zone next year for sure. How much and what type I have no idea about.

 

[gt24]

I'd argue most coaches would call our defensive identity as being utilizing multiple looks, including several types of zones. I would expect us to utilize zone next year for sure. How much and what type I have no idea about.

we have certainly bounced between m2m and our hybrid zone this year. but the hybrid zone has been consistent all year. and although it might have some slight variations in terms of responsibilities from year to year, it is mostly the same hybrid 23/131 each year. this year the only hc defenses we have run are m2m, hybrid 23/131 zone, and about ~1% of possessions in a straight/traditional 131 (which almost always gave up easy buckets immediately and pastner switched out of it each time quickly). those are the only hc defenses we've played all year.

 

[CuseJacket]

agree. and one consistent aspect over five years has been the zone. correct? wouldn't every ACC coach label that as part of our identity?

I'd argue most coaches would call our defensive identity as being utilizing multiple looks, including several types of zones. I would expect us to utilize zone next year for sure. How much and what type I have no idea about.

I was waiting for our NCAAT selection thread to say this but it makes sense here... I think our defense sets us up VERY well for a NCAAT run.

Teams that know us (ACC) or have us on the schedule far enough in advance have more than enough opportunity to prepare, and those teams still have an acclimation period when they see it live. Now put our defense in a setting where we'll match up against a random team out of a hat... Boom.

Syracuse has benefited from this in the past with the 2-3. I think our zone style AND multiple looks is arguably harder to prepare for. I'm very excited about the possibilities. Even if it doesn't pay off in any given year, I think it'll prove a fantastic tournament style for us over time. I love it enough in the regular season as it is.

 

[orientalnc]

I was waiting for our NCAAT selection thread to say this but it makes sense here... I think our defense sets us up VERY well for a NCAAT run.

Teams that know us (ACC) or have us on the schedule far enough in advance have more than enough opportunity to prepare, and those teams still have an acclimation period when they see it live. Now put our defense in a setting where we'll match up against a random team out of a hat... Boom.

Syracuse has benefited from this in the past with the 2-3. I think our zone style AND multiple looks is arguably harder to prepare for. I'm very excited about the possibilities. Even if it doesn't pay off in any given year, I think it'll prove a fantastic tournament style for us over time. I love it enough in the regular season as it is.

We also switch out of the 1-3-1 into m2m. That eats away time if nothing else.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I was waiting for our NCAAT selection thread to say this but it makes sense here... I think our defense sets us up VERY well for a NCAAT run.

Teams that know us (ACC) or have us on the schedule far enough in advance have more than enough opportunity to prepare, and those teams still have an acclimation period when they see it live. Now put our defense in a setting where we'll match up against a random team out of a hat... Boom.

Syracuse has benefited from this in the past with the 2-3. I think our zone style AND multiple looks is arguably harder to prepare for. I'm very excited about the possibilities. Even if it doesn't pay off in any given year, I think it'll prove a fantastic tournament style for us over time. I love it enough in the regular season as it is.

Is it just me or do we seem especially good at the zone trap? If so, we could certainly give some teams fits.

 

[MidtownJacket]

This thread the last few messages about our defensive scheme is the thing I enjoy most about this page. Really good content and messages from you all!

I agree the scheme sets up well for a tournament run, I also think the zone let’s us stay fresher as we go deeper (m2m is so much more physically taxing on a short bench). I have been paying to the 10 minutes or so Jose wasn’t playing this season (only kinda tic) and it didn’t seem like the zone blew up when he took a breather. That’s a big deal. If we can rotate a couple guys in while keeping the intensity of the zone strong we will be a tough out on anyone. Add in that theory accumulated miles players get the harder outside shots become, and our defense sets up to be punishing for teams not accustomed to it.

The other great thing is by morphing between the 2/3 and 1/3/1 concepts we can better “hide” players who get into foul trouble and protect them from getting abused at a spot in the paint. Our help defense has been great all year at this.

Finally you throw in our propensity to go for steaks combined with a defense that shifts and changes mid-possession and you will see a lot of indecision resulting in turnovers for the bad guys. Tap your head, or poke the rock, either way Tech Ball!

Last thing to add is we are capable of scoring from the wings, guards or down low in the paint and on any given night it feels like a guy can go off for 25+ points so we will be tough to defend scheme wise too. You almost can’t double anyone consistently or else we will set you up and pick it apart. This is what having talented, mature guards feels like and dang do I love it.

 

[YlJacket]

this point you raise is fascinating to think about. knee jerk reaction: hard to imagine pastner moving away from the matchup/hybrid 23/131 zone. as one of the game announcers mentioned recently: it's been 5 years and most of the acc still has not figured out how to attack it with consistent success.

g kyle 6'2 200#
g mike 6'5 200#
g deebo 6'6 210#
f usher 6'7 215# and f khalid 6'7 200#
f/c: meka 6'8 or howard 6'10 or saba 7'1

even without howard or saba, a "small ball" lineup with those guys is not so small anywhere except at the 5 spot. can imagine very disruptive zone and m2m defenses with so much length and athleticism. we've seen it at times this year with usher at the "5" and 4 guards (including bubba and jose at the same time for a lineup that some have labeled "tiny ball")

also "fun" to think about jalon moore and miles kelly - 6'6" and 6'5" more length and athleticism on the wings that can presumably guard multiple positions m2m and can be very disruptive in our hybrid zone.

I too think we will see a lot of hybrid zone next year and likely less mtm - especially early in the year. We played a lot more mtm this year as Jose evolved to the defensive POY pretty much locking down any PG and Moses was a lot more of a rim protector than originally expected. Throw in that Moore, Usher and even Bubba are plus defenders and mtm made sense. Throw out the first 2 abomination games and we were an above average defensive team. Next year Kyle is solid defensively but a step back from Jose and Howard/Saba are at the moment unknown rim protectors. Plus Usher and Bubba are likely walking out the door as well. And right now we will have at least one freshman/RSF starter and significant minutes from other freshmen. Freshmen usually have more trouble adjusting defensively to the college game.

Net net, I expect we will come out of the box next year primarily in the hybrid zone next year to both hide some deficiencies and give the new starters/freshmen time to get their sea legs under them. Don't expect we will be Syr like in our devotion to the zone but will be a primary zone team until at least mid season.