- Messages
- 19,625
Game 4 #GTvsWF Postgame
- Thread starter CuseJacket
- Start date
Northeast Stinger
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 11,127
It’s a hard call because, with slow motion video, so much attention is paid today to “the continuation of the play.” But in theory it should be no different than a fumble in the end zone. Matters not who eventually ends up with the ball or even if the ball rolled out of the end zone at the end of the play. A nano-second of control over the goal line is like instant freeze tag. The play is over regardless of what happens next.
Yes. TD
LongforDodd
LatinxBreakfastTacos
- Messages
- 3,261
There is some room to debate whether he had control when his foot touched in bounds because it was clear that he didn't immediately afterwards.
- Messages
- 10,074
- Location
- Williamsburg Virginia
I think the call would have stood either way. We were lucky it was called a reception.
- Messages
- 8,121
- Location
- Augusta, Georgia
The NCAA Rules:
ARTICLE 3.
- To catch a ball means that a player:
- Secures control of a live ball in flight before the ball touches the ground, and
- Touches the ground in bounds with any part of his body, and then
- Maintains control of the ball long enough to enable him to perform an act common to the game, i.e., long enough to pitch or hand the ball, advance it, avoid or ward off an opponent, etc., and
- Satisfies paragraphs b, c, and d below.
- If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent) he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or in the end zone. This is also required for a player attempting to make a catch at the sideline and going to the ground out of bounds. If he loses control of the ball which then touches the ground before he regains control, it is not a catch. If he regains control inbounds prior to the ball touching the ground it is a catch.
- If the player loses control of the ball while simultaneously touching the ground with any part of his body, or if there is doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch. If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball, even if it touches the ground, will not be considered loss of possession; he must lose control of the ball in order for there to be a loss of possession.
- If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control and continues to maintain control, and the elements above are satisfied, it is a catch.
- An interception is a catch of an opponent’s pass or fumble.
- A catch by any kneeling or prone inbounds player is a completion or interception (Rules 7-3-6 and 7).
- A player recovers a ball if he fulfills the criteria in paragraphs a, b, c, and d for catching a ball that is still alive after hitting the ground.
- When in question, the catch, recovery or interception is not completed.
As was mentioned earlier, we are probably very fortunate this was not reviewed. From every replay I've seen it does not appear he maintained enough control while inbounds to stand up in replay. Considering the refs gifted WF a TD later in the game on a fairly egregious PI call, I'll gladly accept this one as trade.
SECTION 4. Catch, Recovery, Possession :: NCAA Football Rules Online
rulebook.github.io
FlatsLander
Ramblin' Wreck
- Messages
- 926
I always wonder if there's some kind of orchestration for balancing calls out. Like they didn't review Singleton's TD, but the mothership looked at it afterwards and determined we shouldn't have gotten that TD, so they told the refs to shade calls towards WF.The NCAA Rules:
ARTICLE 3.
- To catch a ball means that a player:
- Secures control of a live ball in flight before the ball touches the ground, and
- Touches the ground in bounds with any part of his body, and then
- Maintains control of the ball long enough to enable him to perform an act common to the game, i.e., long enough to pitch or hand the ball, advance it, avoid or ward off an opponent, etc., and
- Satisfies paragraphs b, c, and d below.
- If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent) he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or in the end zone. This is also required for a player attempting to make a catch at the sideline and going to the ground out of bounds. If he loses control of the ball which then touches the ground before he regains control, it is not a catch. If he regains control inbounds prior to the ball touching the ground it is a catch.
- If the player loses control of the ball while simultaneously touching the ground with any part of his body, or if there is doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch. If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball, even if it touches the ground, will not be considered loss of possession; he must lose control of the ball in order for there to be a loss of possession.
- If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control and continues to maintain control, and the elements above are satisfied, it is a catch.
- An interception is a catch of an opponent’s pass or fumble.
- A catch by any kneeling or prone inbounds player is a completion or interception (Rules 7-3-6 and 7).
- A player recovers a ball if he fulfills the criteria in paragraphs a, b, c, and d for catching a ball that is still alive after hitting the ground.
- When in question, the catch, recovery or interception is not completed.
As was mentioned earlier, we are probably very fortunate this was not reviewed. From every replay I've seen it does not appear he maintained enough control while inbounds to stand up in replay. Considering the refs gifted WF a TD later in the game on a fairly egregious PI call, I'll gladly accept this one as trade.
SECTION 4. Catch, Recovery, Possession :: NCAA Football Rules Online
roadkill
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 1,921
The key words are “secure” and “control”.The NCAA Rules:
ARTICLE 3.
- To catch a ball means that a player:
- Secures control of a live ball in flight before the ball touches the ground, and
- Touches the ground in bounds with any part of his body, and then
- Maintains control of the ball long enough to enable him to perform an act common to the game, i.e., long enough to pitch or hand the ball, advance it, avoid or ward off an opponent, etc., and
- Satisfies paragraphs b, c, and d below.
- If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent) he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or in the end zone. This is also required for a player attempting to make a catch at the sideline and going to the ground out of bounds. If he loses control of the ball which then touches the ground before he regains control, it is not a catch. If he regains control inbounds prior to the ball touching the ground it is a catch.
- If the player loses control of the ball while simultaneously touching the ground with any part of his body, or if there is doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch. If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball, even if it touches the ground, will not be considered loss of possession; he must lose control of the ball in order for there to be a loss of possession.
- If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control and continues to maintain control, and the elements above are satisfied, it is a catch.
- An interception is a catch of an opponent’s pass or fumble.
- A catch by any kneeling or prone inbounds player is a completion or interception (Rules 7-3-6 and 7).
- A player recovers a ball if he fulfills the criteria in paragraphs a, b, c, and d for catching a ball that is still alive after hitting the ground.
- When in question, the catch, recovery or interception is not completed.
As was mentioned earlier, we are probably very fortunate this was not reviewed. From every replay I've seen it does not appear he maintained enough control while inbounds to stand up in replay. Considering the refs gifted WF a TD later in the game on a fairly egregious PI call, I'll gladly accept this one as trade.
SECTION 4. Catch, Recovery, Possession :: NCAA Football Rules Online
I just rewatched the catch a few times from the viewpoint of the camera in the end zone, stopping the action at the moment of the catch. Singleton “secures” the ball between his forearms as it comes down. It appears that he allows it to slide from the middle of his forearms into his hands as he goes out of bounds, thus the ball movement we see. However, at no time does it appear to me to be a loss of control, such as a bobble. It happens in one smooth movement. So from that perspective, I didn’t see anything warranting an overturn of the call on the field. Caveat: I am using my gold-tinted glasses.
Northeast Stinger
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 11,127
This is when I think slow motion replay can be misleading. A blessing and a curse. How long does control have to be demonstrated? 1/10 of a second? 1/20 of a second? If the ball is continuously sliding in his grip that is different from it was secure for a fraction and then slipped.The key words are “secure” and “control”.
I just rewatched the catch a few times from the viewpoint of the camera in the end zone, stopping the action at the moment of the catch. Singleton “secures” the ball between his forearms as it comes down. It appears that he allows it to slide from the middle of his forearms into his hands as he goes out of bounds, thus the ball movement we see. However, at no time does it appear to me to be a loss of control, such as a bobble. It happens in one smooth movement. So from that perspective, I didn’t see anything warranting an overturn of the call on the field. Caveat: I am using my gold-tinted glasses.
Back in the day a player might catch a ball in the end zone and then immediately get plowed by a tackler causing him to lose the ball. If I recall, it was anlmost always called a touchdown, no matter how short of a fraction of time the ball was secured, unless it was demonstrably clear the receiver never had possession. But I also remember refs agonizing over the call and some controversies before replays became a regular thing.
- Messages
- 8,121
- Location
- Augusta, Georgia
The key words are “secure” and “control”.
I just rewatched the catch a few times from the viewpoint of the camera in the end zone, stopping the action at the moment of the catch. Singleton “secures” the ball between his forearms as it comes down. It appears that he allows it to slide from the middle of his forearms into his hands as he goes out of bounds, thus the ball movement we see. However, at no time does it appear to me to be a loss of control, such as a bobble. It happens in one smooth movement. So from that perspective, I didn’t see anything warranting an overturn of the call on the field. Caveat: I am using my gold-tinted glasses.
I've watched it multiple times as well. The GT homer in me agrees with you. The brutal truth is that that ball moves, which almost every single ref in the NCAA will say is not "secured" until after he was out of bounds. IMO we are very fortunate to have that play go unreviewed.
danny daniel
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 2,619
Completely agreeThe key words are “secure” and “control”.
I just rewatched the catch a few times from the viewpoint of the camera in the end zone, stopping the action at the moment of the catch. Singleton “secures” the ball between his forearms as it comes down. It appears that he allows it to slide from the middle of his forearms into his hands as he goes out of bounds, thus the ball movement we see. However, at no time does it appear to me to be a loss of control, such as a bobble. It happens in one smooth movement. So from that perspective, I didn’t see anything warranting an overturn of the call on the field. Caveat: I am using my gold-tinted glasses.
- Messages
- 8,121
- Location
- Augusta, Georgia
- Maintains control of the ball long enough to enable him to perform an act common to the game, i.e., long enough to pitch or hand the ball, advance it, avoid or ward off an opponent, etc., and...
Lotta Booze
Ramblin' Wreck
- Messages
- 779
That's badass
- Messages
- 19,625
Unpopular opinion - the final angle of the Kenan Johnson PI suggests - though admittedly does not confirm - a reasonable interpretation of PI. It appears there is a case that Johnson's right hand temporarily holds down the WR's left hand, which optically is confirmed by seeing the WR initially attempt the catch with just the right hand. It was only when they showed the final replay angle, after the bad PI narrative took hold, that I could see that argument. It's also why the closest ref was not positioned to make that call.
You can sorta see it here, though it's not the angle I'm referring to:
To somewhat redeem myself, here's an indisputably blown PI that still makes my blood boil:
You can sorta see it here, though it's not the angle I'm referring to:
To somewhat redeem myself, here's an indisputably blown PI that still makes my blood boil:
JacketOff
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 3,008
Seems like the team is learning how to believe in and trust each other. A big step in the building process. Defense stepped up and got a pick, then the offense went and put the game on ice. Hopefully they play a pretty stress-free game against BG this week and get ready to knock off another undefeated ACC team on the road in Miami.
Northeast Stinger
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 11,127
Yeah, that’s clear as mud and doesn’t answer this particular question.
bobongo
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 7,726
There are a lot of borderline calls and being a ref is a tough, thankless job. The only time the refs get noticed is when somebody thinks they blew one. And of course they do blow some calls, because they're human. Pass interference is often a tough, bang-bang call to make and in college ball isn't even reviewable. They all even out in the end.
Last edited:
roadkill
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 1,921
Not disputing your opinion, but I was unable to see what you are describing in that condensed game video, which didn't include a close-up replay (unless it was presented much later).
bobongo
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 7,726
I believe there are makeup calls. Refs realize they may have missed one and a borderline call further along goes the other way. It happens, in my observation and opinion.
- Messages
- 8,121
- Location
- Augusta, Georgia
The rules by very nature need to be subjective here, else we'd have refs constantly reviewing to determine if control was established and then held for 1.25 seconds, etc,...