Ga Tech Placekicking Problems

[jacketjp]

If Steph Curry is sick and can't lift a basketball, by your reasoning, put him in the game because just not being able to lift a basketball doesn't mean that he won't be lights out when the game starts.

This is utterly absurd. Of course that's not my logic. We're talking about a slump, or "yips" as some have called it. Wells wasn't kicking well in practice/warmups. He didn't have a broken leg. Let's at least try to be intellectually honest, shall we?

I also have not flatly stated that Wells should not have been replaced. I argued that he should not have been replaced when there was not a clearly better alternative. King's performance both before and after Wells' stint demonstrate pretty conclusively that he was not clearly superior. If Wells had a broken leg, then the having the left tackle or equipment manager kick is a better option.

 

[RonJohn]

This is utterly absurd. Of course that's not my logic. We're talking about a slump, or "yips" as some have called it. Wells wasn't kicking well in practice/warmups. He didn't have a broken leg. Let's at least try to be intellectually honest, shall we?

I also have not flatly stated that Wells should not have been replaced. I argued that he should not have been replaced when there was not a clearly better alternative. King's performance both before and after Wells' stint demonstrate pretty conclusively that he was not clearly superior. If Wells had a broken leg, then the having the left tackle or equipment manager kick is a better option.

If you watched both of them warm up last year, then you would have easily been able to decide which kicker was clearly kicking better. King's kicks were often pushed and or pulled, but they were up in the air every time. Well's kicks were as wide as King's but were not even elevated much of the time.

I have nothing against either guy. But it was obvious during warmups which of the choices gave the best opportunity to make kicks.

 

[wesgt123]

Omg this thread is still going? Jeeeeezus. Nothing to debate. We can’t kick. Leave it be

 

[jacketjp]

I can think of several ways that is was not spot on.

I was being sarcastic. It was a rhetorical question. Apparently a baseball comparison is acceptable but a basketball comparison is wildly incorrect. Good grief.

Ankiel's issues started during a game, not in practice.

Part 1 of why this is a horrible comparison: It completely misses the point. Wells had demonstrated no issues in the game, but in practice. Of course if he had gone multiple games with terrible performance, he should have been replaced. Wells was 50 for 50 in games and he was benched without missing a kick. My point has been that kicking is a mental game, much like pitching or shooting, and performance in practice does not translate directly to in game performance, and vice versa.

Ankiel was touted as the next Sandy Koufax. How many kickers at GT were touted as the next Adam Vinatieri? Even Butker was not given that level of praise.

Part 2: "Level of praise" is completely inconsequential.

He had five wild pitches in one inning against the Braves. His next game, he threw two wild pitches in the first inning and was yanked. That was the end of the season for him. The next year, he started drinking on the mound. He actually won his first game, then he lost his second start and was sent to the minors.

Part 3: This is all completely, wildly, factually incorrect. The only part that is correct is that he won his first game. He went on to start five more games (started six games total) to begin the 2001 season. He had 5 wild pitches TOTAL through those 6 games (24 innings pitched). Then he was sent down.

Do you think that if he was throwing wild pitches during warmups, in practice, that they would have let him start? Obviously not.

Part 4: He was throwing wild pitches IN GAMES, and they continued to let him start. This completely undermines your point and supports mine. The Cardinals gave him an opportunity on the field to try to figure it out. He couldn't, so they sent him down.

 

[jacketjp]

If you watched both of them warm up last year, then you would have easily been able to decide which kicker was clearly kicking better.

 

[wesgt123]

I was being sarcastic. It was a rhetorical question. Apparently a baseball comparison is acceptable but a basketball comparison is wildly incorrect. Good grief.



Part 1 of why this is a horrible comparison: It completely misses the point. Wells had demonstrated no issues in the game, but in practice. Of course if he had gone multiple games with terrible performance, he should have been replaced. Wells was 50 for 50 in games and he was benched without missing a kick. My point has been that kicking is a mental game, much like pitching or shooting, and performance in practice does not translate directly to in game performance, and vice versa.



Part 2: "Level of praise" is completely inconsequential.



Part 3: This is all completely, wildly, factually incorrect. The only part that is correct is that he won his first game. He went on to start five more games (started six games total) to begin the 2001 season. He had 5 wild pitches TOTAL through those 6 games (24 innings pitched). Then he was sent down.



Part 4: He was throwing wild pitches IN GAMES, and they continued to let him start. This completely undermines your point and supports mine. The Cardinals gave him an opportunity on the field to try to figure it out. He couldn't, so they sent him down.

Just let it go dude. It’s not worth it

 

[RonJohn]

Part 4: He was throwing wild pitches IN GAMES, and they continued to let him start. This completely undermines your point and supports mine. The Cardinals gave him an opportunity on the field to try to figure it out. He couldn't, so they sent him down.

My point, which was clearly missed, was that if he had been pitching that poorly, IN WARMUPS, that they wouldn't have put him in the game to begin with. You have to prove that you can physically get the ball in the strike zone before given an opportunity to test your mental condition.

 

[jacketjp]

My point, which was clearly missed, was that if he had been pitching that poorly, IN WARMUPS, that they wouldn't have put him in the game to begin with. You have to prove that you can physically get the ball in the strike zone before given an opportunity to test your mental condition.

This, also, is unequivocally false. I have seen more times than I could possibly count pitchers wildly missing the zone in their warmup pitches and never once have I seen them yanked. Just keep making stuff up though.

 

[jacketjp]

My point, which was clearly missed, was that if he had been pitching that poorly,

Me: Practice performance doesn’t equal game time performance.

You: But I heard he wasn’t kicking well in practice.

Me: Practice performance doesn’t equal game time performance.

You: But I heard from sources in the know that he was really really bad in practice.

Me: Practice performance doesn’t equal game time performance.

You: But I saw him practice kicks in warmups and it was super duper awful!

Me: Practice performance doesn’t equal game time performance.

You: But in this baseball example that I totally made up and presented as factual, a guy who was pitching well in practice was benched after he performed really poorly in games.

Me: You lied about everything in your example, but yes, exactly. Practice performance doesn’t equal game time performance.

You: You missed my point.

 

[RonJohn]

This, also, is unequivocally false. I have seen more times than I could possibly count pitchers wildly missing the zone in their warmup pitches and never once have I seen them yanked. Just keep making stuff up though.

I am not the one who seems to be "making stuff up". Which pitchers have you seen, who have demonstrated control issues, that not only miss the strike zone but repeatedly throw the ball far out of the reach of the catcher? Have you seen video of Ankiel throwing grossly wild pitches during warmups? If so, please post a link to that video.

 

[smokey_wasp]

This is utterly absurd. Of course that's not my logic. We're talking about a slump, or "yips" as some have called it. Wells wasn't kicking well in practice/warmups. He didn't have a broken leg. Let's at least try to be intellectually honest, shall we?

I also have not flatly stated that Wells should not have been replaced. I argued that he should not have been replaced when there was not a clearly better alternative. King's performance both before and after Wells' stint demonstrate pretty conclusively that he was not clearly superior. If Wells had a broken leg, then the having the left tackle or equipment manager kick is a better option.

When Wells got the opportunity to kick in games last year, he promptly missed a FG and XP badly, which more or less vindicates the decision, or at least makes it understandable. And then he left the team, which also lends credence to the idea that he just didn't have it anymore.

Your idea that he was going to look awful in warmups only to somehow put it together in games is magical thinking. That's not generally how it works 99 percent of the time, man. If he were simply that rare breed who is a bad practice player but a clutch kicker in games, then he would have looked bad in practice and warmups in 2018. But he didn't.

We didnt have any good kicking options last year and we still don't. That's the bottom line.

 

[RonJohn]

Me: Practice performance doesn’t equal game time performance.

.......

You: You missed my point.

If you cannot perform an action, even in practice, then you cannot perform that action. You are correct that I do not get your point, because you seem to be saying that even if a player is no longer able to physically perform an activity, he should only be taken out of the game if he repeatedly doesn't perform that action in an actual game. If one kicker has probably a 30% chance of making a field goal and another kicker has probably a 60% chance of making a field goal, it doesn't matter what they did last year. The most likely outcome will be fewer FG attempts. (Actually happened) The most likely kicker to actually try FGs will be the one with probably a 60% chance of making the kicks. (Actually happened).

If two guys are close, and one has performed well in games in the past, then yes that player will probably get the nod. The kickers last year were not that close. One kicker was clearly performing better than the other kicker. Unfortunately even the better kicker wasn't performing as well as we would have liked.

 

[jacketjp]

I am not the one who seems to be "making stuff up". Which pitchers have you seen, who have demonstrated control issues, that not only miss the strike zone but repeatedly throw the ball far out of the reach of the catcher? Have you seen video of Ankiel throwing grossly wild pitches during warmups? If so, please post a link to that video.

And this is called moving the goal posts. You completely made stuff up and I provided factual data to call you out. Now you're claiming that I'm making stuff up. I used to umpire and I watch a lot of baseball. I couldn't begin to give you a list of the pitchers that have trouble finding the zone or throw a wild pitch during warmups. It happens frequently. Here is an example of a MLB pitcher throwing a wild pitch in warmups. Guess what? He wasn't pulled from the game. I never made any point about Ankiel throwing wild pitches in warmups so video of such a thing, if it exists, is irrelevant. You're obviously still not following

 

[RonJohn]

I never made any point about Ankiel throwing wild pitches in warmups so video of such a thing, if it exists, is irrelevant. You're obviously still not following

Then what point are you making about Ankiel? If he was pitching well during practice and warmups, how does it compare to kickers at GT who couldn't kick during practice? GT had two kickers last year. One of them had issues kicking. The other had very big issues kicking. Step Curry, Rick Ankiel, some kind of belief that the only thing that matters is what has happened during a game: None of those things make me believe that the guy with very big issues should be kicking over the guy with big issues. More likely, GT should have limited their FG attempts. Guess what, that is what they did. Only eight attempts all year long.

 

[jacketjp]

When Wells got the opportunity to kick in games last year, he promptly missed a FG and XP badly,

No, not really. He started 2/2. He got benched without missing a kick. Then he missed a single XP. Got benched for 5 more games. Got brought back out and went 4 for 5, missing one FG. You guys are making it sound like he was completely inept. Even with his supposed practice struggles, he was still 45/46 on XPs and 9/10 of FGs on his career. That's absurdly good. We benched him for a guy that was 25/28 on XPs and 6/10 on FGs at that point and went on to go 17/18 on XPs and 3/7 on FGs. And you're arguing that was obviously a good decision because... Practice!

which more or less vindicates the decision, or at least makes it understandable. And then he left the team, which also lends credence to the idea that he just didn't have it anymore.

I don't agree that vindicates anything because that happened after he had been told he had to win back his starting spot after having a perfect season and after he had been benched without missing a kick. I think a lot of players would leave a team given those circumstance.

If he were simply that rare breed who is a bad practice player but a clutch kicker in games, then he would have looked bad in practice and warmups in 2018. But he didn't.

That's just not how mental and/or mechanics issues with muscle memory based activities work, man. You can be great in practice and games one year and then you can suddenly develop a hitch in your golf swing or bat swing or jump shot in practice or in a game. And sometimes, changing your mental focus by going from a practice situation to a game situation, or vice versa, can help reset. In basketball, it's called shooting out of a slump.

Your idea that he was going to look awful in warmups only to somehow put it together in games is magical thinking. That's not generally how it works 99 percent of the time, man.

I've never argued that he would have magically put things together in a game. I've stated, repeatedly, that because he was kicking poorly in warmups does not conclusively determine that he would have kicked poorly in a game. And I have stated, repeatedly, that given his stellar track record in games, it is my opinion that he should have been given the opportunity on the field to demonstrate whether or not he could pull it together considering our lack of other clearly better options. That last part is obviously an opinion, but it's pretty comical how vociferously that opinion is being argued.

 

[TheTechGuy]

When Wells got the opportunity to kick in games last year, he promptly missed a FG and XP badly, which more or less vindicates the decision, or at least makes it understandable. And then he left the team, which also lends credence to the idea that he just didn't have it anymore.

Your idea that he was going to look awful in warmups only to somehow put it together in games is magical thinking. That's not generally how it works 99 percent of the time, man. If he were simply that rare breed who is a bad practice player but a clutch kicker in games, then he would have looked bad in practice and warmups in 2018. But he didn't.

We didnt have any good kicking options last year and we still don't. That's the bottom line.

This isn’t factual according to ESPN stats and YouTube game videos.

Wells went 2-2 on XPs to start the season at Clemson, then for reasons unknown, he didn’t kick against USF. King missed a FG against USF. The next game, Wells missed an XP wide right (it wasn’t poorly struck and barely missed), and they pulled him. King went on to make a FG against Citadel and subsequently miss the game winner.

Wells didn’t kick again until the Virginia game, which was the 9th game of the season. In that game he was 4-4 on XPs and missed a field goal, again well struck and barely missed wide right.

Wells never kicked again. He finished his career 45-46 on XPs and 9-10 on FGs. Note that Collins pulled Wells after missing his first career kick by a foot. If we’re going to speculate on causes of issues, could that be a cause?

 

[jacketjp]

Then what point are you making about Ankiel? If he was pitching well during practice and warmups, how does it compare to kickers at GT who couldn't kick during practice? GT had two kickers last year. One of them had issues kicking. The other had very big issues kicking. Step Curry, Rick Ankiel, some kind of belief that the only thing that matters is what has happened during a game: None of those things make me believe that the guy with very big issues should be kicking over the guy with big issues. More likely, GT should have limited their FG attempts. Guess what, that is what they did. Only eight attempts all year long.

Good god man. Try to keep up. Are you actually reading posts or just rapid fire responding? I didn't have a point about Ankiel. I sarcastically posed a rhetorical question to someone else who apparently believes basketball comparisons are apples and oranges but who took no objection to a baseball comparison, only because that comparison didn't support his opinion. You couldn't seem to follow that it is was rhetorical and proceeded to make several factually incorrect statements. My only point in replying to you about Ankiel was to point out the stuff you were completely making up and why your response about Ankiel completely the point.

 

[jacketjp]

This isn’t factual according to ESPN stats and YouTube game videos.

Weird... Isn't it odd when people on one side of a debate are just consistently fabricating stuff? It's almost as though the facts don't support their argument. Just bizarre I tell ya.

Wells never kicked again. He finished his career 45-46 on XPs and 9-10 on FGs. Note that Collins pulled Wells after missing his first career kick by a foot. If we’re going to speculate on causes of issues, could that be a cause?

NO NO NO. That COULDN'T be it. Because... Practice. Yeah. That's it. Because he was missing really really really badly in practice. Word vomit. Word vomit. PRACTICE. Stamps feet and cries hysterically. PRRAAAAACTICE!!!!! Collapses, sobbing.

 

[takethepoints]

I said it before and I'll say it again. The simple fact here is that for two straight years we have absolutely sucked at place kicking. Nothing seems to have been done about that in the off season. Admittedly, fall practice was badly disorganized because of the disease, but, really now, how much time does it take to coach place kicking, if you know what you are doing? It should be obvious that either the coaches in charge of this should be moved to jobs where they have a chance to succeed and others given the responsibility or we ought to hire a kicking coach.

 

[smokey_wasp]

Sheesh guys. Ya'll want to nitpick this to death.