Film Study - TECH on Offense vs UGAg

IronJacket7

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We just needed 10 yards...what if...

This to me was the most frustrating series to rethink the what ifs...

Why not run on 3rd and 7 to try to get closer than a 57 yard field goal attempt.
If we get the 1st down then great.
If we get 4 or 5 yards then we can try a 52 yard field goal or go for it on 4th and short.

Oh well... We will never know.
 

awbuzz

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One play that got some groans from the student section was one where Bostic had a block on the edge but decided to try to run it to the outside instead of taking it inside his block. He could have had a good run but instead got tackled for a 1 yard gain. Just seemed like a total lack of awareness, but he was really the only back I wan't happy with this game. Vad seemed explosive on the scramble for the first time since that hit he took in the UNC game. I was disappointing that Justin Thomas didn't get to play, I think his speed could have been big for a couple downs late in the game. Smelter is a stud, plain and simple. Lot of positives to go around, but that doesn't make the fact that we blew a 20-0 lead any easier to swallow. Hopefully CPJ keeps mixing up the offense a bit more, we looked more dynamic and dangerous this game than we have all year.
Saw that from the stands. (you've verified my though on the play) Easy to see when you're not the one running the ball.
 

awbuzz

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This to me was the most frustrating series to rethink the what ifs...

Why not run on 3rd and 7 to try to get closer than a 57 yard field goal attempt.
If we get the 1st down then great.
If we get 4 or 5 yards then we can try a 52 yard field goal or go for it on 4th and short.

Oh well... We will never know.

problem would be that if you miss - and that's a long way to kick - then UGA gets the ball around the 40 and only need to go 20 - 30 yards for them to kick a FG as time expires...
 

IronJacket7

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problem would be that if you miss - and that's a long way to kick - then UGA gets the ball around the 40 and only need to go 20 - 30 yards for them to kick a FG as time expires...

If you miss... Or if you don't get the first down.
Plus they had 2 timeouts left. They would have had to burn at least one more to stop the clock on a run play.
Not to mention they may have burnt their final timeout to ice Butker had we not converted the 3rd or 4th down.
 

Boomergump

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This to me was the most frustrating series to rethink the what ifs...

Why not run on 3rd and 7 to try to get closer than a 57 yard field goal attempt.
If we get the 1st down then great.
If we get 4 or 5 yards then we can try a 52 yard field goal or go for it on 4th and short.

Oh well... We will never know.
It is a tough call. If we run there and get stopped, then try a 52 yard FG and miss, people would be asking why didn't we throw to try and convert a first down? Then, God forbid, they do move the ball 30 yards before time expires and kick themselves a winner. All hell would break loose in the GT fan base. Bottom line for me, run a play you think will work, whether it is a run or a pass.
 

Fatmike91

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Another place we ran the triple was the first play after Georgia kicked off to us with 6 minutes to go (Tech up 27-24). Bad read (gave and unblocked lineman crashed down). The very next play Vad threw the game changing interception.
I suspect we dont throw in that spot on second down (down and distance) if the first down play went for positive yards.

We need to get better at running our base O. (I am not bashing Vad, he made some great plays to help us get the lead). But our inability to run our base on our last two possessions in regulation cost us.


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Boomergump

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Another place we ran the triple was the first play after Georgia kicked off to us with 6 minutes to go (Tech up 27-24). Bad read (gave and unblocked lineman crashed down). The very next play Vas threw the game changing interception.
I suspect we dont throw in that spot on second down (down and distance) if the first down play went for positive yards.

We need to get better at running our base O. (I am not bashing Vad, he made some great plays to help us get the lead). But our inability to run our base on our last two possessions in regulation cost us.


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Yup. Part of the reason we all feel Vad played with more confidence is that we didn't run much TO at all. We stuck with what he was most comfortable doing. It is not a bad strategy necessarily, but you want our QB to do both with ease. I think we can be good with a wizard running TO most of the time who is also a weak passer or we could be good running Vad's form of the fake option with more passing. However, we will only be GREAT if we can do both with the same guy.
 

Squanto

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Another place we ran the triple was the first play after Georgia kicked off to us with 6 minutes to go (Tech up 27-24). Bad read (gave and unblocked lineman crashed down). The very next play Vad threw the game changing interception.
I suspect we dont throw in that spot on second down (down and distance) if the first down play went for positive yards.

We need to get better at running our base O. (I am not bashing Vad, he made some great plays to help us get the lead). But our inability to run our base on our last two possessions in regulation cost us.


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What do you consider our base to be these days?
 

IronJacket7

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Yup. Part of the reason we all feel Vad played with more confidence is that we didn't run much TO at all. We stuck with what he was most comfortable doing. It is not a bad strategy necessarily, but you want our QB to do both with ease. I think we can be good with a wizard running TO most of the time who is also a weak passer or we could be good running Vad's form of the fake option with more passing. However, we will only be GREAT if we can do both with the same guy.

Maybe I am wrong but it just seems like at this point it would be easier to tailor the offense around him more so than continue to try and get him to get better at what he struggles with. Maybe he can improve and get very good at the TO. This would be the best scenario I agree. But he has also been here for 3 years now and is still not completely comfortable with it. I don't know. At what point do you say okay we just do what he can do. And add more of what he does good to our overall playbook.

Vad to me is the epitome of a Dual Threat QB. I have felt since last season watching him play is witnessing one of the GT greats, IMO. That being said, its not that he doesn't run well or make good quick decisions. Its that he is not that good at a particular play(s) of an offensive scheme (i.e. the mesh and or pitch read and relation). I keep seeing improvement from Vad in this area and hope for the best.
 

Boomergump

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Maybe I am wrong but it just seems like at this point it would be easier to tailor the offense around him more so than continue to try and get him to get better at what he struggles with. Maybe he can improve and get very good at the TO. This would be the best scenario I agree. But he has also been here for 3 years now and is still not completely comfortable with it. I don't know. At what point do you say okay we just do what he can do. And add more of what he does good to our overall playbook.

Vad to me is the epitome of a Dual Threat QB. I have felt since last season watching him play is witnessing one of the GT greats, IMO. That being said, its not that he doesn't run well or make good quick decisions. Its that he is not that good at a particular play(s) of an offensive scheme (i.e. the mesh and or pitch read and relation). I keep seeing improvement from Vad in this area and hope for the best.
All excellent thoughts and questions. My only caution is that you can't make such decisions looking at the QB in a vacuum. You also have to consider the rest of the roster and what they are capable of doing too. For example, we would be in deep kimchee if we suddenly decided to go air raid because Vad can throw. We don't have a WR corps that has proven they can get open or win contested balls with anything other than single coverage bent on stopping the run. What WR do we have that is a good route runner or can stretch the field WITH a deep safety helping? I don't think there is one on the roster. Smelter has proven to be a good intermediate type receiver, but even he isn't a precise route runner. Then, looking at the OL that has all been recruited and developed with drive blocking in mind, not in retreat, catching people in the pass rush.

The compromise offense we ran against UGAg is a viable and potent attack that only incorporated some of our option elements. We could be successful running it that way. In fact, we may have been more successful trying that all year instead of force feeding the TO in the middle of the season. Who knows? I don't know where we are headed with diamond stuff either. Frankly, I don't think Vad has looked comfortable making MESH reads 5 yards deep either.
 

AE 87

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Maybe I am wrong but it just seems like at this point it would be easier to tailor the offense around him more so than continue to try and get him to get better at what he struggles with. Maybe he can improve and get very good at the TO. This would be the best scenario I agree. But he has also been here for 3 years now and is still not completely comfortable with it. I don't know. At what point do you say okay we just do what he can do. And add more of what he does good to our overall playbook.

Vad to me is the epitome of a Dual Threat QB. I have felt since last season watching him play is witnessing one of the GT greats, IMO. That being said, its not that he doesn't run well or make good quick decisions. Its that he is not that good at a particular play(s) of an offensive scheme (i.e. the mesh and or pitch read and relation). I keep seeing improvement from Vad in this area and hope for the best.

I agree with you that Vad looks right running the ball, and his passes have tighter spirals than TW's. So, in terms of athlete/QB skill-set, he's shown the goods. However, I disagree with your conclusion that the problem lies with how we are using Vad. CPJ put in an almost Urban Meyer UF spread option with the diamond formation. Vad didn't make the zone reads well either, imo. He doesn't hold the mesh well or sell the fakes. He only began to make good check-downs in the passing game during the last couple of games. I still think that Vad can come out and make the big upgrade in performance from this year to next that we saw with Tevin 2010-2011, but let's not pretend that Vad's demonstrated a consistent skill set that we're just not capitalizing on.
 

IronJacket7

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All excellent thoughts and questions. My only caution is that you can't make such decisions looking at the QB in a vacuum. You also have to consider the rest of the roster and what they are capable of doing too. For example, we would be in deep kimchee if we suddenly decided to go air raid because Vad can throw. We don't have a WR corps that has proven they can get open or win contested balls with anything other than single coverage bent on stopping the run. What WR do we have that is a good route runner or can stretch the field WITH a deep safety helping? I don't think there is one on the roster. Smelter has proven to be a good intermediate type receiver, but even he isn't a precise route runner. Then, looking at the OL that has all been recruited and developed with drive blocking in mind, not in retreat, catching people in the pass rush.

The compromise offense we ran against UGAg is a viable and potent attack that only incorporated some of our option elements. We could be successful running it that way. In fact, we may have been more successful trying that all year instead of force feeding the TO in the middle of the season. Who knows? I don't know where we are headed with diamond stuff either. Frankly, I don't think Vad has looked comfortable making MESH reads 5 yards deep either.

Very true. We couldn't go Air Raid thats for sure. But the offense we ran against UGA is definitely viable. Vad seemed more relaxed throughout the game imo. I feel that Vad would love to pass more if coach gave him the choice. But one thing I always look back at is that Vad did not operate in this type of offense in his HS days. Nor did JT for that matter. JT's quickness makes him look better than Vad at times because of the QB's ultimate requirement within the reads of this offense - quickness. I could be wrong but I feel that we will see more of the Full House and other pistol formations next year. I don't think CPJ has given up on that. I just don't think he is completely comfortable with it yet.
 

IronJacket7

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I agree with you that Vad looks right running the ball, and his passes have tighter spirals than TW's. So, in terms of athlete/QB skill-set, he's shown the goods. However, I disagree with your conclusion that the problem lies with how we are using Vad. CPJ put in an almost Urban Meyer UF spread option with the diamond formation. Vad didn't make the zone reads well either, imo. He doesn't hold the mesh well or sell the fakes. He only began to make good check-downs in the passing game during the last couple of games. I still think that Vad can come out and make the big upgrade in performance from this year to next that we saw with Tevin 2010-2011, but let's not pretend that Vad's demonstrated a consistent skill set that we're just not capitalizing on.

I don't know AE87. In regards to Vad's reads out of the full house. What would you say the total number of times we ran it? I would venture to say we ran the inverted veer out of the Pistol Full House/Diamond maybe a total of 10-15 times this season. At most. In comparison to 50+ times we ran a mesh read play out of the flexbone. I am not so sure it is a fair comparison.

From the film against Duke it was tremendously effective. Again it was only one game. But after the duke game we drifted away from running it and went back to the base. JT also had some success out of it in the BYU game. As did Byerly at the end of the Miami game. I know people will say that those were points at the end of the game against a team that was blowing us out. But from what I was watching it almost seemed like CPJ said well we are beat anyway at this point in the game so I will run the full house now. I am not saying we need to run 4 wide or all pistol. I am just saying there is not enough evidence to support that it was ineffective due to the amount of times we ran it. Limited.

QB's in general feed off of rhythm. I don't see where we ran the full house enough this season to develop any type of rhythm for the QB. With the exception of the Duke game. And we slaughtered them with it. Another case where it would have been nice to at least try it... The VT game. They completely shut us down - when we were shooting ourselves in the foot. We ran the Diamond 0 times.

Also, don't get me wrong. Winning is more important than what formation we run. That's a given. But play selection and formation choice is a vital and important strategy in winning football games.
 

Longestday

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It was clear in the spring game that Vad had more experience. I think Byerly and JT showed better footwork and reading than Vad in general. I was not sure if this was due to playing 1st defense and second defense. Vad has had trouble thinking on the field at times and depends on athletic instinct.

Byerly was the best at the diamond. He reads well and holds the mesh the right amount of time. I often wonder if he is not the best complete passer as well (height, arm strength, touch, reading, and quickness in reading combination).

JT showed skill in the Miami game correctly reading the cross charge. His BB mesh is very quick and controlled. It is much more a guess if he kept the ball or gives the ball. After the BB mesh, JT shoots out quickly to get on the edge to keep the outside defender from playing a man and a half.
 

AE 87

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IJ7, I can't dispute your feelings and impressions. I remember the Duke game differently.

It's possible that what what we run in games is all that our coaches see too, Or it's possible that they've seen Vad thrive in practice in other schemes, and are just stubbornly calling plays that we don't run as well. Of course, they don't stubbornly call triple but stubbornly call the plays Vad can run, but not the new stuff they know he can run better. I just don't think it's likely.
 

gtg936g

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I think the best thing Vad has going for him is JT. I say that because one of the two will be the number 2 next year, and both have the drive to be the starter. It is a lot easier to make the read when the O line makes all their blocks as well. I think Vad got enough reps this year, and faced enough defenses to know what his weaknesses are. If he is the player I think he is, he will improve a lot by next September.
 

daBuzz

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Boomer, I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping you can answer for me. Perhaps I should start another thread but this one seems to have veered away from just the UGA game analysis anyway, so I thought I'd just continue along that veered-thread-concept.
1) I've heard CPJ say many times at events that "there is an answer to everything a defense does with this offense". In other words, no matter what someone does, we have a way to counter it supposedly. HOWEVER, whenever we have faced teams that have a combination of very big & strong interior linemen and good speed on the outside, we have had no answer for it. For instance, LSU, Iowa, Virginia Tech, and Miami routinely line up DT's on either side of the center in the A gap and just have the guy jump between the guard/center and try to disrupt the mesh point and force the play outside. I've yet to see us counter this play. Is there a counter to it without being able to throw the ball effectively downfield a majority of the time?
2) When teams employ such a strategy, why do we not narrow the splits between our OL? I know the concept for wide gaps is to create the blocking angles, but certainly those are thrown out the window when you cannot get the ball away from the QB, aren't they?
 

Fatmike91

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DaBuzz, I will offer my thoughts on this. I have been thinking about this exact subject.

I think the offense that you saw in the Georgia game is an evolution in CPJ's game plan that is a direct result of the "mesh attack" that VT started and it definitely involves passing. CPJ realizes our option decision making wasn't fast enough, and we have the ability to implement more play action passing. This is what we did on Saturday.

Some things I saw:
- fewer meshes in the game plan...
- slants! (We ran none against VT, I didn't count but maybe 7 against GA?)
- pass to A back in the flat
- the a back motion, and stop to vary the snap count
- rocket

Georgia attacked the mesh, and they didn't have nearly the success as VT did earlier in the season.

I suggest the game plan you saw us implement against GA is the answer to your question.


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