ESPN says we have

[GT33]

also the chan slander is funny considering him and johnson HAVE THE SAME WIN PERCENTAGE

It provides a window into how long someone has been a fan. We tired of 7-6, 7-6, 7-6, etc despite the overall record was historically what we achieved. Fact of the matter was Chan was not completely prepared to coach college football at the start of his tenure and when he probably cracked the code, we probably pulled the plug on him 1-2 seasons too soon largely impacted by the 7-6 annual record that was too much for many to tolerate. Chan just hitched his wagon to Reggie (maybe he couldn't recruit a better QB) and that was a bad move as Reggie was an electric player, just sometimes for the wrong team. Chan lost 4 years of different results riding Reggie that could have massively changed the view of his time here. There was widespread discontent with Chan & there existed a large contingent that was willing to have very bad seasons if we could have some very good seasons along the way.... at least until were weren't and then we wanted to outst the coach. Johnson's issue throught his entire tenure was the NFL football types of GT fans wanted to vomit the minute he was announced as coach & despite any good seasons wanted to get him out of here as bad as we wanted to defeat the terrorists. Now we're stuck with 3, 3, 3 and have to hope the abundance of new staff hires pulls off a decent season. It won't be because we have a good HC, everybody knows he's way over his head. We need this staff with someone competent at the helm & at that point we can start assessing whether or not the NFL type schemes could be successful at GT in the "new modern era of NIL". Unfortunately the world is changing & GT is paralyzed not being able to make the decision everybody knows needs to happen. Next year can't get here fast enough.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

We were 95th in scoring and 92nd in total offense. I wouldn’t call that losing production. More like losing lack of production.

Not a knock in the guys, just a result of poor scheming. Individual plays weren’t terrible, but it seemed that there was no rhyme or reason to when and why we ran them.

We should easily improve even with a different set of players.

The truth right here. But there is a knock on the guys. They checked out. We had several multi year players who just quit. Sure, they showed up and went thru the motions but when the going got tough they curled up. Then they emerged for combines and pro days. Screw those guys. They were partners with Collins in killing this program. I’ll take kids who are hungry over whiners every day and we had a bunch of whiners. We still have a few but hopefully Long either gets them refocused or runs them over, but either way we can’t have players just going thru the motions.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

i would say the same to you about anything not related to the option. it’s over and done and never coming back. it had some good years but it was trending very poorly. collins came in and was bad but that’s a collins thing not related to some specific system. if the option was effective at this level you would see a lot more teams running it.

it’s also a little reductionist to narrow every system down to pro style or not. what long wants to run is very different so i will like to see what direction he goes

also the chan slander is funny considering him and johnson HAVE THE SAME WIN PERCENTAGE

Same percentage lol

We’ve already established that CPJ had better wins and fewer WTF losses, not to mention that he like, actually, beat uga periodically.

Rewriting history so that you project CPJ’s worst seasons as some kind of trend is unbecoming of someone of your intelligence.

I get that you are afraid that the option will return and I get that you have an irrational distaste for it. But some of us don’t care what we run if we win once in a while. I could name several coaches in Tech’s past who were successful running a unique system, beginning with Heisman and Dodd.

There is literally no reason to run down CPJ. Seriously, stop it. This conversation is about how there is a lobby for what a lot of people call “pro style” because they think we can win without a unique system. The mounting evidence suggests otherwise. I frankly don’t care if we run air raid, Baltimore Ravens offense or Army, IF we can do better than miserable to mediocre on the field.

I’m still willing to give this vaunted “pro style thank god it’s not the option” offense another shot. But at some point we will have to face facts, whatever those turn out to be.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Unless the Ncaa grows a pulse, big changes are coming.
There will be plenty of winnable games in the future for gt.

The moving of the top teams ( think clem, FSU, Miami) to a super conference of 40 ish teams is a given. TV money will greatly increase at these schools so they can richly pay/ pamper coaches and players. The TV money will be greatly reduced for those not in the new super conference. The left behind will be like a better regional form of the G5. Ticket sales for the many NO TV games will be more important. We should be a big fish in the smaller pond.

We will be able to run whatever scheme is most pleasing to the stake holders.

Hate to like this but I fear you are 100% correct.

 

[WreckinGT]

not like the option was doing it either though. we lost to clemson very badly every year after 2014. we beat uga 3 times in 10 years and the last few weren’t particularly close either. i’m not sure a pro style offense is the way to go but the option certainly is dead

Against UGA and Clemson, every offense is dead. Thats kind of the point. They aren't a reasonable barometer for anything. We need to forget about Clemson and UGA for a while. We aren't scheming or talenting our way around them in their current form. Against the rest though, the option worked pretty well. Although I tend to think it was more CPJ than the scheme itself. There are other good coaches running different schemes that could be successful as well, we just need to find and pay one.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

If a super league is formed and we are left out we have no one to blame but the man in the mirror. GT was a national player with ranked teams and a national following. We squandered that with poor decisions over a 60 year period. That’s on us. The NCAA did nothing to make us make poor decisions. How much did we offer for Herschel? He would have kept the malaise of the 80’s from happening. Did we go after Bo? Auburn got Cam yet he’s from a few miles from the GT campus. We went from a powerhouse to a patsy because of stupid decisions. Meanwhile, every school around us will be part of the super league except us because they made smart decisions for their program (Auburn, UGA, FSU, Bama, Clemson, Florida, Tennessee) will all be in the real league. And we’ll still be reliving the 50’s. GT should be throwing huge money at every 5 star out there to get relevant before the next round. But instead, we are run by academics who don’t care. The upside is we’ll be able to see a lot of new stadiums in our future.

 

[augustabuzz]

The option worked fine and did not die. It was outlawed.

 

[forensicbuzz]

FIFY. We haven't been competitive with too many teams for the last few years. I also wouldn't count on Da U, FSU, and UNC continuing to flub up in future.

We need what has always saved Tech's bacon: an offense or defense (preferably both, of course) that is hard to stop and is tuned to the kinds of players we can get into school and keep until they are seniors. As I keep saying, if Wake can do it, Tech can do it. All we need to do is disenchant ourselves and face to the reality of our situation. And act accordingly in all phases of the program, of course.

My post didn’t need fixing. We have been competitive. We just haven’t won. That needs to change.

As for what we need to do…no one knows. It’s a brave new world with NIL and the portal. The first non-factory schools that figure out how to do that will have a leg up on the rest and may be part of what’s to come. The rest will compete at a different level.

Until those three schools actually get “back” to that level, I’m not counting that as anything except a potential win. We’ve beaten all three enough that we’re on level ground with them.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

i would say the same to you about anything not related to the option. it’s over and done and never coming back. it had some good years but it was trending very poorly. collins came in and was bad but that’s a collins thing not related to some specific system. if the option was effective at this level you would see a lot more teams running it.

it’s also a little reductionist to narrow every system down to pro style or not. what long wants to run is very different so i will like to see what direction he goes

also the chan slander is funny considering him and johnson HAVE THE SAME WIN PERCENTAGE

The "funny" part is that Coach Johnson beat UGA three times, something Chan never did. Coach Johnson took teams to the Orange Bowl, again, something Chan never did. Johnson got more out of less talent, Chan got less out of more talent.

 

[forensicbuzz]

It provides a window into how long someone has been a fan. We tired of 7-6, 7-6, 7-6, etc despite the overall record was historically what we achieved. Fact of the matter was Chan was not completely prepared to coach college football at the start of his tenure and when he probably cracked the code, we probably pulled the plug on him 1-2 seasons too soon largely impacted by the 7-6 annual record that was too much for many to tolerate. Chan just hitched his wagon to Reggie (maybe he couldn't recruit a better QB) and that was a bad move as Reggie was an electric player, just sometimes for the wrong team. Chan lost 4 years of different results riding Reggie that could have massively changed the view of his time here. There was widespread discontent with Chan & there existed a large contingent that was willing to have very bad seasons if we could have some very good seasons along the way.... at least until were weren't and then we wanted to outst the coach. Johnson's issue throught his entire tenure was the NFL football types of GT fans wanted to vomit the minute he was announced as coach & despite any good seasons wanted to get him out of here as bad as we wanted to defeat the terrorists. Now we're stuck with 3, 3, 3 and have to hope the abundance of new staff hires pulls off a decent season. It won't be because we have a good HC, everybody knows he's way over his head. We need this staff with someone competent at the helm & at that point we can start assessing whether or not the NFL type schemes could be successful at GT in the "new modern era of NIL". Unfortunately the world is changing & GT is paralyzed not being able to make the decision everybody knows needs to happen. Next year can't get here fast enough.

If Chan had turned the offense over to a college innovator, those teams through the 2000’s would have made some significant noise. Chan was too conservative for college football. That being said, it was time for Chan to go. Johnson did well, but when he left, it was time to go. NIL and the Portal, coupled with Covid has changed the way college football will be forever. There’s no putting the magic smoke back in the electronics.

 

[billga99]

A coach with a successful scheme can recruit the players who will fit that system. One of the difficulties is coaches tend to be offensive or defensive minds. You need strong coordinators on the other side of the ball to make up the difference. That all takes money. Look around us. Every major program has 80K+ seats and fills their stadium (UGA, UT despite their mediocre record, Auburn, Clemson, South Carolina again with a mediocre record, Alabama, Florida, FSU, on and on). That translate into more money and definitely helps with recruiting having a full energetic stadium. Even if we find a more creative coach, you will need to pay for strong coordinators and do more to fill up the stadium. Unfortunately winning has not been the formula to fill up GT stadium on a regular basis. That points to lack of a strong fanbase even when winning. The SEC has the mindshare here without a doubt. At the end, the move to pull out of the SEC and the lack of the ACC to bring football powers into the conference who evolved to mediocrity (excluding FSU for 20+ years) has really hurt our ability to pick up sidewalk fans.

 

[JacketFan137]

If Chan had turned the offense over to a college innovator, those teams through the 2000’s would have made some significant noise. Chan was too conservative for college football. That being said, it was time for Chan to go. Johnson did well, but when he left, it was time to go. NIL and the Portal, coupled with Covid has changed the way college football will be forever. There’s no putting the magic smoke back in the electronics.

i don’t think people want to accept it was time to move on from johnson. collins being awful doesn’t mean it was great at the end of the johnson years. the magic was very clearly gone from the system and johnson phoned it in both on and off the field. i get that he had major appeal to a large portion of our fanbase as he too was a grumpy old man, but idk those last seasons just weren’t as great as everyone here seems to remember. the orange bowl was 2014 and since then we were 24-25 and we really weren’t close to returning to those heights.

it’s a shame that collins has basically soured the very vocal option only crowd on any idea of returning to modern football

 

[WreckinGT]

i don’t think people want to accept it was time to move on from johnson. collins being awful doesn’t mean it was great at the end of the johnson years. the magic was very clearly gone from the system and johnson phoned it in both on and off the field. i get that he had major appeal to a large portion of our fanbase as he too was a grumpy old man, but idk those last seasons just weren’t as great as everyone here seems to remember. the orange bowl was 2014 and since then we were 24-25 and we really weren’t close to returning to those heights.

it’s a shame that collins has basically soured the very vocal option only crowd on any idea of returning to modern football

I think you misread people. There is a contingent of the fan base that doesn’t believe we can recruit well enough to run the same “modern” offense as the factories, nor do we have the money to hire a good enough coaching staff to operate it. The current staff and results aren’t helping that mindset.

People are just looking for ways to become competitive again. Whether it’s the option which had some success here or some other specialized scheme, people see the need to try something different as doing the same thing as everyone else with less talent doesn’t seem to be a fruitful endeavor.

 

[takethepoints]

the only evidence on your side really is collins is bad. that doesn’t mean that one system is or isn’t effective. the option was getting crushed by clemson and uga and pretty much rendered useless by any big teams. there’s a reason no one else in p5 football is running it and it really shouldn’t come back

Problem = name any team - besides Bama - that wasn't smushed by Clemson and Ugag in 2016 - 18. Clemson lost by one point to Pitt in 16, to Syracuse (!) by 3 in 17, and were MNC in 18. Ugag lost to Auburn in 17, to several teams (including Tech!) in 16, and LSU in 18. Clemson beat Tech by 19 in 16 and 14 in 17. Ugag beat Tech by 31 in 17 (pretty bad) and lost to Tech by 1 in 16. Both teams handled us pretty easily in 2018, but then Clemson was MNC that year and Ugag had one regular season loss. In short, everybody got their heads handed to them by Clemson in 2016 - 18 and, with 2016 as an exception, by Ugag too. We simply lost, like most everybody else; worse to Clemson than to Ugag, when you look at the game stats. And, lest we forget, we won 9 games in 2016 and 7 in 2018, despite defensive problems. That doesn't mean, btw, that the 2014 team, for instance, couldn't have done pretty well in 2017 and 18. Or today, for that matter, despite the rule changes. (I don't think these would do anything except change the blocking schemes.)

As to no one else running the spread option in P5 football, two things. First, you are converting a plus into a minus. When I was in college we ran a classic single wing. And we won like gang busters all four years I was there, mainly because nobody had the time to really prepare for us. We saw the same thing at Tech, even in Paul's later years. Second, the main reason people aren't running the spread option more is that it is hard to find coaches familiar with it. All the coaches out there - you can check - know that it works; ask the P5 teams that Army and Air Force beat in their bowl games last year. But it requires assistants who know what they are doing and that means taking a risk, something nobody in college football wants to do these days.

But I wasn't saying that we should bring back the spread; anything that catches our opponents off track would do just fine. Maybe Long can do something about that. If Collins lets him, that is.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Everyone knows Johnson had reached his end. Several factors led there including lack of support from our AD and the indifference from the school as a whole. The rules could have been overcome with tweaking but Johnson is not a tweaking type of guy. So with little support from the school Johnson made the right call to retire and enjoy life. My hats off to him.

As far as being competitive now, it’s all about the want to. The playing field is now level. No longer is it a matter of cheating vs. “doing it the right way”. Everyone now knows how to improve. GT has plenty of money. The problem is they don’t want to use a small amount for athletics so we sit here like paupers. Bottom line is that GT has chosen to go in the direction of an international school who cares about only academic rankings. For those of us who enjoy competitive athletics we are hosed.

 

[lv20gt]

I think you misread people. There is a contingent of the fan base that doesn’t believe we can recruit well enough to run the same “modern” offense as the factories, nor do we have the money to hire a good enough coaching staff to operate it. The current staff and results aren’t helping that mindset.

There is no magic scheme to offset the talent differential. If there was such a scheme it would, like every other one, be better with talent than without, and so the factories would run that instead. Maybe for a few year's you could get somewhat of an advantage, but we saw with the Urban Meyer/Rich rod type of offense, what works proliferates to the highest level. But there is a reason Johnson's option didn't catch hold anywhere else. It comes with a lot of downsides that the supporters of it just have their head in the sand about, one of which is how much of a pain it is if you want to go away from it.

 

[forensicbuzz]

i don’t think people want to accept it was time to move on from johnson. collins being awful doesn’t mean it was great at the end of the johnson years. the magic was very clearly gone from the system and johnson phoned it in both on and off the field. i get that he had major appeal to a large portion of our fanbase as he too was a grumpy old man, but idk those last seasons just weren’t as great as everyone here seems to remember. the orange bowl was 2014 and since then we were 24-25 and we really weren’t close to returning to those heights.

it’s a shame that collins has basically soured the very vocal option only crowd on any idea of returning to modern football

I didn’t say anything even close to this.

 

[WreckinGT]

There is no magic scheme to offset the talent differential. If there was such a scheme it would, like every other one, be better with talent than without, and so the factories would run that instead. Maybe for a few year's you could get somewhat of an advantage, but we saw with the Urban Meyer/Rich rod type of offense, what works proliferates to the highest level. But there is a reason Johnson's option didn't catch hold anywhere else. It comes with a lot of downsides that the supporters of it just have their head in the sand about, one of which is how much of a pain it is if you want to go away from it.

Why in your opinion were the offenses in the CPJ era so much better than the Gailey era or the Collins era even with less talent on paper? How did we finish #2 in the country in 2014 in offensive FEI with a relatively tough schedule with less talent than most of our opponents? Is CPJ just an offensive genius? Would we have finished #2 in the country with a pro style coach running a pro style system with the same players?

 

[JacketFan137]

Why in your opinion were the offenses in the CPJ era so much better than the Gailey era or the Collins era even with less talent on paper? How did we finish #2 in the country in 2014 in offensive FEI with a relatively tough schedule with less talent than most of our opponents? Is CPJ just an offensive genius? Would we have finished #2 in the country with a pro style coach running a pro style system with the same players?

qb was recruited much smarter/used more effectively. reggie ball would have excelled in a system more similar to auburn’s under malzahn or oregon’s. instead chan was stubborn and had a phenomenal athlete in what are the time was a pro offense with plays under center and long drop backs.

paul basically had 4 good seasons in 2008/9 and 2014/2016. both were his two best qbs and other than those seasons we were pretty uninspiring.

i would also like to know why paul’s defenses were so abhorrent even though his offense kept them off the field the whole game.

at the end of the day different coaches had different strengths. chan and collins being ineffective at their job doesn’t mean we have to run the option

 

[lv20gt]

Why in your opinion were the offenses in the CPJ era so much better than the Gailey era or the Collins era even with less talent on paper? How did we finish #2 in the country in 2014 in offensive FEI with a relatively tough schedule with less talent than most of our opponents? Is CPJ just an offensive genius? Would we have finished #2 in the country with a pro style coach running a pro style system with the same players?

Because Gailey had terrible OCs and Collins has had a combination of a probably terrible OC and talent that has largely been a terrible fit for the offense as a whole.

And yes, Johnson was a great play caller. If he wasn't he'd have flamed out as a head coach because his defenses weren't good and recruiting was bad. So yeah, he was a great OC. But you can have great OC's in any system. You can also have bad OC's in any system. The option was well designed but not the magical talent negating offense people thought it was. And Johnson was the best play caller for that offense. I don't know why people look at comparing a system being run by the best play caller for it vs one being called by a below average one and use that as baselines for the systems.

And, why is it that people only ever go back to 2014 as if that was the normal year for us. That was the fluke year. On average our OFEI rank was 27.8th under Johnson. That sounds great in isolation. But it was when we completely sold out for that one side of the ball at the cost of defense and special teams, and with the best play caller we could have for it. Since Johnson left Navy, their average OFEI has been 37.5. Under Monken Army's has been 60.4.

That isn't even getting into the inherent problem any large umbrella type of stat, trying to compare very different things, has in handling fringe cases.

Also, interesting note. As bad as we've thought our offense has been under Collins' in his first 3 years turns out Army was worse by average OFEI for Monken's first three years. Turns out transitions can be hard even for the option offense when it isn't gifted Dywer, Thomas, and Nesbitt.