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Heisman's Ghost

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Why in your opinion were the offenses in the CPJ era so much better than the Gailey era or the Collins era even with less talent on paper? How did we finish #2 in the country in 2014 in offensive FEI with a relatively tough schedule with less talent than most of our opponents? Is CPJ just an offensive genius? Would we have finished #2 in the country with a pro style coach running a pro style system with the same players?
Good question. My surmise is that it was the genius of CPJ and being able to recruit offensive linemen that were not wanted by most teams but excelled in an option offense. Running backs for that offense were a dime a dozen for the most part with an occasional great one like Dwyer thrown in from time to time. I played corner back in an option era when seemingly every team was running Veer, wishbone, flex bone etc. and let me tell you it was hell being a defensive back or outside linebacker with some SOB coming at your knees on damn near every play.
 

WreckinGT

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qb was recruited much smarter/used more effectively. reggie ball would have excelled in a system more similar to auburn’s under malzahn or oregon’s. instead chan was stubborn and had a phenomenal athlete in what are the time was a pro offense with plays under center and long drop backs.

paul basically had 4 good seasons in 2008/9 and 2014/2016. both were his two best qbs and other than those seasons we were pretty uninspiring.

i would also like to know why paul’s defenses were so abhorrent even though his offense kept them off the field the whole game.

at the end of the day different coaches had different strengths. chan and collins being ineffective at their job doesn’t mean we have to run the option
This may shock you, but the 2017 and 2018 teams were ranked higher in offensive efficiency than the 2008 and 2016 teams. Overall four different QBs lead top 20 offenses for CPJ. It wasn't just two who had success. Tevin Washington was the only QB in the CPJ era to lead two top 15 offenses. The offense was consistently effective with whatever personnel was plugged in. Either CPJ really knew what he was doing or the system gave us an advantage, or some mixture of both. As for the defense, CPJ isn't a defensive coach and apparently wasn't very good at hiring them either. Although somewhat in his defense he tried to hire one and we just flat out refused to pay for it.

But back to the question at hand, which is what we need to do going forward. Maybe there is a pro style coach who is a good enough play caller that will come here and have similar results. I just really doubt it when the better teams on our schedule will be facing the same offense in practice with better talent, along with playing many other teams running the same scheme. Talent will win out if you decide to do the same thing everyone else does.
 

Randy Carson

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Is there a solution?
I think so. We establish multiple divisions and place schools across the country into the various divisions based on enrollment, budget, past record, etc. (the first year will be the hardest to rank - after that, it's best on W-L record). Division 1 might only have 24 schools divided into two conferences of twelve schools each. This would mean 11 regular season games and one Division Championship game for a total of 12 for those two. Eleven for everyone else.

At the end of each season, the top two teams from each division move up to the division above and the bottom two teams move down one level. There is a championship game for each division.

The football factories will generally be in a league at the top but the worst of that group WILL move down while the best two teams from D2 will move up and have a chance to play with the big boys. The fortunes of each school will rise and fall over time, but generally each season will see fair competition among equals.

This is how English Football (soccer) works.

Tech wouldn't be playing Clemson and Georgia and Notre Dame right now. We wouldn't be playing Western Carolina, either. In theory, we could eventually get back to the top Division, but I suspect we would likely rank near the top of Division 2 (which is probably our realistic, permanent home) and the occasional bump up to the bottom of Division 1.
 
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iceeater1969

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This may shock you, but the 2017 and 2018 teams were ranked higher in offensive efficiency than the 2008 and 2016 teams. Overall four different QBs lead top 20 offenses for CPJ. It wasn't just two who had success. Tevin Washington was the only QB in the CPJ era to lead two top 15 offenses. The offense was consistently effective with whatever personnel was plugged in. Either CPJ really knew what he was doing or the system gave us an advantage, or some mixture of both. As for the defense, CPJ isn't a defensive coach and apparently wasn't very good at hiring them either. Although somewhat in his defense he tried to hire one and we just flat out refused to pay for it.

But back to the question at hand, which is what we need to do going forward. Maybe there is a pro style coach who is a good enough play caller that will come here and have similar results. I just really doubt it when the better teams on our schedule will be facing the same offense in practice with better talent, along with playing many other teams running the same scheme. Talent will win out if you decide to do the same thing everyone else does.
Our system beat our Atlantic acc opponent every year.
The better teams in coastal got better at coaching up against our offense - take risk on early downs to get us behind schedule.
The rules on blocking changed - pass holding blocking became more allowed and cut blocking became less allowed.

The I formation and the air raid is what my son's HS ran in 1993. Helped that we had great players😄
 

bobongo

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I think so. We establish multiple divisions and place schools across the country into the various divisions based on enrollment, budget, past record, etc. (the first year will be the hardest to rank - after that, it's best on W-L record). Division 1 might only have 24 schools divided into two conferences of twelve schools each. This would mean 11 regular season games and one Division Championship game for a total of 12 for those two. Eleven for everyone else.

At the end of each season, the top two teams from each division move up to the division above and the bottom two teams move down one level. There is a championship game for each division.

The football factories will generally be in a league at the top but the worst of that group WILL move down while the best two teams from D2 will move up and have a chance to play with the big boys. The fortunes of each school will rise and fall over time, but generally each season will see fair competition among equals.

This is how English Football (soccer) works.

Tech wouldn't be playing Clemson and Georgia and Notre Dame right now. We wouldn't be playing Western Carolina, either. In theory, we could eventually get back to the top Division, but I suspect we would likely rank near the top of Division 2 (which is probably our realistic, permanent home) and the occasional bump up to the bottom of Division 1.
The downside is that tiered national divisions would obliterate rivalries, which are the métiers of college football. Determining who moves up and down would be contentious. If you went up, great, but if you went down...not certain we wouldn't be playing Western Carolina after the last three years. I know it works in English Soccer - they have probably always had this system in place, but I don't think it would ever fly here. Too disruptive. The idea has a lot of merit in theory, but seems impractical in our present situation, IMO.
 

Randy Carson

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I would say that the Top 25 system already divides the landscape into ranked and unranked teams - the haves and the have nots. Make it Top 24, and you have your two divisions of the D1.

BTW, under this system EVERY GAME counts, because some teams are eager to move up and no one wants to move down. So that final game of the season between two 3-7 teams matters because the loser is literally going down.

As for rivalries, Virginia / Virginia Tech or NC State / Carolina might be rivalries that stay intact (since the programs are frequently comparable), but Tech / UGA is no longer a competitive rivalry. It only exists in our memories and faded news clippings.
 

JacketFan137

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This may shock you, but the 2017 and 2018 teams were ranked higher in offensive efficiency than the 2008 and 2016 teams. Overall four different QBs lead top 20 offenses for CPJ. It wasn't just two who had success. Tevin Washington was the only QB in the CPJ era to lead two top 15 offenses. The offense was consistently effective with whatever personnel was plugged in. Either CPJ really knew what he was doing or the system gave us an advantage, or some mixture of both. As for the defense, CPJ isn't a defensive coach and apparently wasn't very good at hiring them either. Although somewhat in his defense he tried to hire one and we just flat out refused to pay for it.

But back to the question at hand, which is what we need to do going forward. Maybe there is a pro style coach who is a good enough play caller that will come here and have similar results. I just really doubt it when the better teams on our schedule will be facing the same offense in practice with better talent, along with playing many other teams running the same scheme. Talent will win out if you decide to do the same thing everyone else does.
for one i think everybody is showing their lack of understanding of the situation the second they paint everything as either option or pro style when there’s a lot in between. what they did at oregon with chip kelly vs baylor vs stanford vs iowa is all very different things. ideally we evaluate what you have on the roster then design the offense on those strengths. the transition should have been more gradual in hindsight but again, i think we had to look committed and show we were running an offense that wasn’t the option for proof of concept for recruits, and it did end up helping us in that regard.

another thing is we have to get good athletes in. as much as people want to live in this fantasy land where recruiting doesn’t matter it’s absolutely a core tenant of football at this point. you also have to develop that talent and use it well, but the hit rate on 4* recruits is so much higher than 3*. that being said, uga, clemson and bama have found lower rated recruits and turned them into stars. something we have been kinda bad at for the last decade regardless of staff. yes, if we run the same thing as everyone else talent will win, but right now talent and athleticism are king anyway. there’s no “equalizer” against teams like uga, clemson, etc anymore. the option is not something that will make us competitive with teams that big and physical. it’s also such a hindrance on the defensive side of recruiting (that and paul’s lack of effort on that front so maybe a different coach would be different results)

ultimately the key thing teams that see success in lesser situations do is create an identity that focuses on a strength while maintaining some sort of balance on offense. you cannot be successful consistently only running the ball or only throwing the ball. if that means turning your team into a track team with spread hurry up (baylor, ucf, oregon, etc) or bulking up the line, TEs and full backs like stanford and iowa, you can lean into that strength and build around it. that is also where you get to recruit a little more based on system and with that you aren’t pigeon holing yourself into mediocre talent on both sides of the ball. chip long actually seems to have much more of a plan and desire to establish an identity (hurry up 12 personnel, RPO with emphasis on zone blocking) so that is a step in the right direction

you also have to develop players and have a good s&c program. i think coach lew is pretty good at the s&c part but i think our player development on both offense and defense is poor. we have replaced a lot of those staff members so maybe that will change but still up in the air
 

bobongo

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I would say that the Top 25 system already divides the landscape into ranked and unranked teams - the haves and the have nots. Make it Top 24, and you have your two divisions of the D1.

BTW, under this system EVERY GAME counts, because some teams are eager to move up and no one wants to move down. So that final game of the season between two 3-7 teams matters because the loser is literally going down.

As for rivalries, Virginia / Virginia Tech or NC State / Carolina might be rivalries that stay intact (since the programs are frequently comparable), but Tech / UGA is no longer a competitive rivalry. It only exists in our memories and faded news clippings.
I like the bolded part of it a lot. Every game counts.
 

Northeast Stinger

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I’m just going to put this out there.

CGC simply doesn’t care about defense and he doesn’t care about recruiting for defense and he doesn’t know how to hire defensive coaches. Collins just isn’t interested in giving us a winning defense.

Or, the same problems that plagued us during the Johnson years still plague us. I’m going to guess that it’s mainly a problem of money. Which we don’t have or are not allowed to spend. This impacts everything from recruiting to quality of coaching.
 

bobongo

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I’m just going to put this out there.

CGC simply doesn’t care about defense and he doesn’t care about recruiting for defense and he doesn’t know how to hire defensive coaches. Collins just isn’t interested in giving us a winning defense.

Or, the same problems that plagued us during the Johnson years still plague us. I’m going to guess that it’s mainly a problem of money. Which we don’t have or are not allowed to spend. This impacts everything from recruiting to quality of coaching.
Or, CGC is overrated as a defensive coach and not much of an HC. Maybe he and Thacker squandered the talent they had.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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I’m just going to put this out there.

CGC simply doesn’t care about defense and he doesn’t care about recruiting for defense and he doesn’t know how to hire defensive coaches. Collins just isn’t interested in giving us a winning defense.

Or, the same problems that plagued us during the Johnson years still plague us. I’m going to guess that it’s mainly a problem of money. Which we don’t have or are not allowed to spend. This impacts everything from recruiting to quality of coaching.
Yeah, this is just ignoring that Collins got us more highly rated players than anyone yet he failed at coaching them. Money had nothing to do with that failure. Would he or Thacker have coached better if their contract was bigger? Collins got us players with the same contract he has day. What’s changed? I’ll tell - high school players now have 3 years of seeing his ineptness. Heck, his own players see it and many left. Money had little to do with any of that. We could give Collins 10 million a year and high end players still wouldn’t come here. The only way to turn the tide is to start winning games so we aren’t immediately crossed of the list of every 9th and 10th grader being recruited today. We are already off the lists for any 11th and 12th grader of note.
 

Northeast Stinger

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Yeah, this is just ignoring that Collins got us more highly rated players than anyone yet he failed at coaching them. Money had nothing to do with that failure. Would he or Thacker have coached better if their contract was bigger? Collins got us players with the same contract he has day. What’s changed? I’ll tell - high school players now have 3 years of seeing his ineptness. Heck, his own players see it and many left. Money had little to do with any of that. We could give Collins 10 million a year and high end players still wouldn’t come here. The only way to turn the tide is to start winning games so we aren’t immediately crossed of the list of every 9th and 10th grader being recruited today. We are already off the lists for any 11th and 12th grader of note.
Ouch.
 

forensicbuzz

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Yeah, this is just ignoring that Collins got us more highly rated players than anyone yet he failed at coaching them. Money had nothing to do with that failure. Would he or Thacker have coached better if their contract was bigger? Collins got us players with the same contract he has day. What’s changed? I’ll tell - high school players now have 3 years of seeing his ineptness. Heck, his own players see it and many left. Money had little to do with any of that. We could give Collins 10 million a year and high end players still wouldn’t come here. The only way to turn the tide is to start winning games so we aren’t immediately crossed of the list of every 9th and 10th grader being recruited today. We are already off the lists for any 11th and 12th grader of note.
See above. This is pure fiction made up by you. I have no problem with you having a position, but you don't need to make stuff up to support it.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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So we didn’t lose several players to transfer recruited by Collins? Listen, I know what you are saying but come on. There are always multiple factors, but it’s Collins job to build a successful program unless TStan has a different plan than most AD’s. If we had gone 7-5 last year and shown a pulse do you really believe we would have lost all those guys? The players can see the noon TV slots on regional networks do nothing for their exposure on a 3 win team. The one game we showed up last year happened to be a nationally televised prime time game. Players know the deal. I think several of the players who left made the absolute right decision because GT football is an afterthought right now. The Norte Dame graphic said it all. It’s not about the money for GT football right now, it’s about the ineptness from the coach.
 

forensicbuzz

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So we didn’t lose several players to transfer recruited by Collins? Listen, I know what you are saying but come on. There are always multiple factors, but it’s Collins job to build a successful program unless TStan has a different plan than most AD’s. If we had gone 7-5 last year and shown a pulse do you really believe we would have lost all those guys? The players can see the noon TV slots on regional networks do nothing for their exposure on a 3 win team. The one game we showed up last year happened to be a nationally televised prime time game. Players know the deal. I think several of the players who left made the absolute right decision because GT football is an afterthought right now. The Norte Dame graphic said it all. It’s not about the money for GT football right now, it’s about the ineptness from the coach.
Collins has lost fewer players to transfer than most other schools, especially those schools around us. So, it's disingenuous to tie kids leaving in the Portal to the players having issues with Collins. Right now, I'd say the rabid fans/alumni are the ones with the biggest issues with Collins, not the players.

The highlighted section is your uninformed interpretation of what the players are thinking. By uninformed, I mean that the players aren't telling you this, you're extrapolating how you feel to the players, which isn't reality. They may or may not feel that way, but to state that they do without any basis would get you excluded as an expert.
 

iceeater1969

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1. Tstan bought some used cars from Collins.
2 Collins hired his whole staff in about 1 month.
3. Andy mac had the entire recruiting class stay committed.
4. What was the rush?
5. Where we locking up top talent that might not want to come?
6. one example
Kerry Dixon earned the largest raise from 2018 to '19. He'll make $230,000 this year, a 229 percent raise from the $70,000 he earned coaching wide receivers at Toledo.

After departing GT and as per the RAVENS
- Kerry will work well with James Urban and help our quarterbacks continue to chase new heights.".
quality, schedule cost = quality long out lives the schedule and the initial cost. IT APPEARS Collins FAILED TO MAKE THIS GUY LIE UP TO HIS BIG PAY RAISE
7.
https://footballscoop.com/news/geoff-collins-staff-will-make-georgia-tech-paul-johnsons

8 I am hoping that Tstan and Collins and the older coaching guys have assembled a quality staff.
9. Maybe Collins has hit the lottery on a couple of the recent hires. In particular lets hope the qb coach turns Sims into a top qb.
10. Of course we need the ol injury bug to go away!
 

DvilleJacket

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Gailey and Collins were both unable to beat uga. At all. Ever. Sadly, there were few to zero even close losses.

It may be coincidence but what the two coaches had in common was claiming players who could make it in the pros and running a conventional or “pro style” offense and being very predictable in their play calling. Other than both claiming to have great relations with high school coaches, they had little else in common.

One could make a case for you know what as a result but realistically we are going to try at least one more coach in this mold before we look for unique scheme advantages.
Gailey could've won 3 had RB not been qb
 

takethepoints

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Gailey could've won 3 had RB not been qb
Reg did pretty well as Tech's QB. His problem was that he got hurt when he was a junior (ankle, if I remember correctly) and never got his wheels back completely. Before that he was an active threat to run and made Ds a lot more careful. It was Reg's play that kept us competitive during most of Chan's games with Ugag and the rest of our schedule.

I get pretty tired of people running him down. Here he is at his best:



Say what you will, but Reg could throw the football. Wish we had someone like him back there today.
 
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