Coronavirus Thread

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MWBATL

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To circle back to this, Sweden has 165,000 deaths on a US population corrected basis. Unfortunately, their model has been to resist any lockdowns, but then gradually relent bit by bit. So they've effectively done almost what everyone else did, only much slower. And their new daily cases continue to grow in contrast to most of Europe.

The WHO yesterday forecasted that within about 6-8 weeks, Brazil will pass the US in total COVID-19 deaths. That is an amazingly stunning prediction. Brazil has recently had some 40,000 new daily cases and have been hitting 1,500 deaths per day.
An interesting article about Sweden and covid in today's WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/corona...vernment-11592479430?mod=cxrecs_join#cxrecs_s

Since it may be behind a paywall, basic thrust is that 50% of deaths were in nursing homes, which is the same experience almost western countries. BUT, 90% of said deaths were never even admitted into hospital. Sweden made a choice early on to give palliative care only (such as morphine) and never put elderly patients who were deemed high risk on ventilators or treatment for covid.

This likely has influenced their death rate...a lot.
 

Deleted member 2897

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An interesting article about Sweden and covid in today's WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/corona...vernment-11592479430?mod=cxrecs_join#cxrecs_s

Since it may be behind a paywall, basic thrust is that 50% of deaths were in nursing homes, which is the same experience almost western countries. BUT, 90% of said deaths were never even admitted into hospital. Sweden made a choice early on to give palliative care only (such as morphine) and never put elderly patients who were deemed high risk on ventilators or treatment for covid.

This likely has influenced their death rate...a lot.

Yup, that's the alternative to a price-rationed care system that we have - service-rationed care. They calculate that the vast amount of money countries like us spend on healthcare during the final year of life isn't worth it. The big question for them is how long might those people had lived had they survived? We'll never know. Could be 1 year, could be 20. You don't know what the last year of someone's life is until its over.
 

RamblinRed

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To circle back to this, Sweden has 165,000 deaths on a US population corrected basis. Unfortunately, their model has been to resist any lockdowns, but then gradually relent bit by bit. So they've effectively done almost what everyone else did, only much slower. And their new daily cases continue to grow in contrast to most of Europe.

The WHO yesterday forecasted that within about 6-8 weeks, Brazil will pass the US in total COVID-19 deaths. That is an amazingly stunning prediction. Brazil has recently had some 40,000 new daily cases and have been hitting 1,500 deaths per day.

Brazil is a disaster beyond all disasters in this. And it is widely considered that their numbers are highly underreported as well.

I'm thrilled that our death count has come down to what it has, but we are definitely seeing the rising of cases now, will have to wait and see if hospitalizations start to go up in more areas, obviously AZ, AL and FL have some really bad spots (FL is down to 22% ICU availability as of today).
It's starting to impact a younger population than what happened in the NE, so i'm hoping that helps keeps hospitalizations down.

Cases starting rising 1 week ago on a national basis - that's about 2 and a half weeks after Memorial Day, right about when you would expect to see cases start to increase. Before that there wasn't much change in mobility reports in May so while stay at home orders had been lifted the number of people that were going out didn't increase all that much.

The lag time on some of this is really long. First it takes 3-4 weeks for the spread - it has to go through multiple generations (first person infected, people they infect, people they infect,etc) - before you see any increase. Then people have to get sick enough to be tested. Then they have to get sick enough to end up in the hospital - and then it all has to flow through the reporting stream - which all by itself can take 4-5 days going from the local hospital or test center, to the county, to the state, to the Federal.

Like you, it is good to see that hospitalizations haven't taken off to this point. Will they take off, who knows - they have in a few areas, will they start to spread or taper off.
The number of states i'm really concerned about are probably fewer than 10 right now.
The 2 that are flashing the worst are AL and AZ. Both have increasing cases, little bed availability left, and positive case rates in the mid-teens.
The other ones that are at least flashing yellow now are AR (cases increasing, testing decreasing, 7.3% case rate), FL (cases rapidly increasing - have tripled since the beginning of June, testing flat, case rate 7.4% and increasing), GA (cases increasing, testing decreasing, case rate 7.6%, highest increase in per capita death rate in the US right now), NC (increasing cases, testing increasing, 7.6% case rate) - i'm hoping NC is past the worst already, OK (rapidly increase cases, testing decreasing, case rate up to 5.1%), Texas (increasing cases, testing up - but less than cases are up, case rate 7.9%), Utah (cases rising, testing up, 8.6% case rate) - like NC may have already peaked.

What I see is a picture that isn't 'bad', but it isn't 'good' either. It's just sort of meh and could easily go either way. it is frustrating to see how well most other countries have done with knocking their cases down though campared to us. Compare a graph of US cases to any other Western Civilized country and it just sticks out like a sore thumb. You have a country like New Zealand that completely knocked it down (had 0 cases last week, currently has 3 cases all from people who came into the country and are being quarantined), they did away with all restrictions last week - had rugby matches with 40K people this weekend. Australia is very close to New Zealand. In Europe every country other than Sweden did a much better job of knocking down cases - that will give them more flexibility to open things up than we will - though I did see today that Germany has banned all large scale events through October.

As someone that works in Financial Services i'm somewhat worried about the long term economic effects. There is plenty of literature out there that shows that areas that knock down infectious diseases more completely have better economic outcomes than those that don't. You can already see it a little internationally. Sweden is sort of the black sheep of Europe right now with most EU countries not allowing Swedish residents into their countries. Their economy held on better for a short time but it didn't last and their numbers are now in line with Europe.
in North America, the US Government has been trying for 2 months to get Canada to relax the border restrictions and Canada has not budged, extending the cross-border travel restrictions another month out to July 21st, we'll see what happens then.
We have a number of potential shocks over the next few months that could hit us without more action. The PPP loans run out at the end of June. The layoff pay to Americans ends at the end of July. For some industries that took bailout money from the Feds they couldn't let anyone go until October 1st. So their is a potential for layoff events after the ends of June and Sept with a potential decrease in consumer spending due to loss of payments after the end of July. The US economy is being propped up to some extent by the $3T the government put into it, as well as the actions the Fed has taken in terms of liquidity and borrowing to help companies stay afloat.
 

Deleted member 2897

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Brazil is a disaster beyond all disasters in this. And it is widely considered that their numbers are highly underreported as well.

I'm thrilled that our death count has come down to what it has, but we are definitely seeing the rising of cases now, will have to wait and see if hospitalizations start to go up in more areas, obviously AZ, AL and FL have some really bad spots (FL is down to 22% ICU availability as of today).
It's starting to impact a younger population than what happened in the NE, so i'm hoping that helps keeps hospitalizations down.

Cases starting rising 1 week ago on a national basis - that's about 2 and a half weeks after Memorial Day, right about when you would expect to see cases start to increase. Before that there wasn't much change in mobility reports in May so while stay at home orders had been lifted the number of people that were going out didn't increase all that much.

The lag time on some of this is really long. First it takes 3-4 weeks for the spread - it has to go through multiple generations (first person infected, people they infect, people they infect,etc) - before you see any increase. Then people have to get sick enough to be tested. Then they have to get sick enough to end up in the hospital - and then it all has to flow through the reporting stream - which all by itself can take 4-5 days going from the local hospital or test center, to the county, to the state, to the Federal.

Like you, it is good to see that hospitalizations haven't taken off to this point. Will they take off, who knows - they have in a few areas, will they start to spread or taper off.
The number of states i'm really concerned about are probably fewer than 10 right now.
The 2 that are flashing the worst are AL and AZ. Both have increasing cases, little bed availability left, and positive case rates in the mid-teens.
The other ones that are at least flashing yellow now are AR (cases increasing, testing decreasing, 7.3% case rate), FL (cases rapidly increasing - have tripled since the beginning of June, testing flat, case rate 7.4% and increasing), GA (cases increasing, testing decreasing, case rate 7.6%, highest increase in per capita death rate in the US right now), NC (increasing cases, testing increasing, 7.6% case rate) - i'm hoping NC is past the worst already, OK (rapidly increase cases, testing decreasing, case rate up to 5.1%), Texas (increasing cases, testing up - but less than cases are up, case rate 7.9%), Utah (cases rising, testing up, 8.6% case rate) - like NC may have already peaked.

What I see is a picture that isn't 'bad', but it isn't 'good' either. It's just sort of meh and could easily go either way. it is frustrating to see how well most other countries have done with knocking their cases down though campared to us. Compare a graph of US cases to any other Western Civilized country and it just sticks out like a sore thumb. You have a country like New Zealand that completely knocked it down (had 0 cases last week, currently has 3 cases all from people who came into the country and are being quarantined), they did away with all restrictions last week - had rugby matches with 40K people this weekend. Australia is very close to New Zealand. In Europe every country other than Sweden did a much better job of knocking down cases - that will give them more flexibility to open things up than we will - though I did see today that Germany has banned all large scale events through October.

As someone that works in Financial Services i'm somewhat worried about the long term economic effects. There is plenty of literature out there that shows that areas that knock down infectious diseases more completely have better economic outcomes than those that don't. You can already see it a little internationally. Sweden is sort of the black sheep of Europe right now with most EU countries not allowing Swedish residents into their countries. Their economy held on better for a short time but it didn't last and their numbers are now in line with Europe.
in North America, the US Government has been trying for 2 months to get Canada to relax the border restrictions and Canada has not budged, extending the cross-border travel restrictions another month out to July 21st, we'll see what happens then.
We have a number of potential shocks over the next few months that could hit us without more action. The PPP loans run out at the end of June. The layoff pay to Americans ends at the end of July. For some industries that took bailout money from the Feds they couldn't let anyone go until October 1st. So their is a potential for layoff events after the ends of June and Sept with a potential decrease in consumer spending due to loss of payments after the end of July. The US economy is being propped up to some extent by the $3T the government put into it, as well as the actions the Fed has taken in terms of liquidity and borrowing to help companies stay afloat.

Well we test mote than the rest of the world combined. There’s no way that 5% of the population that we actually have a third of the worlds cases. No way. New Zealand is an island the size of South Carolina - pretty easy to close your borders. Everyone had a hissy fit when we tried to close our borders. Tons of people not wearing masks or social distancing. We have freedoms most other countries don’t - we can’t electronically surveil people and force quarantine via police. IIWII. Even the center of the military force in the universe, China, can’t put the virus to bed. Just remember that the goal is to flatten the curve, not eradicate the virus. The only way places like New Zealand will continue to have that few cases, is if they continue to shut themselves off from the rest of the world and keep their economy depressed. Economists predict that GDP will decline 20% there this quarter.
 
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bobongo

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We have some things going for us that we didn't 2 months ago
First, since no heath systems are currently completely overwhelmed it allows them to provide better care.
Second, we have a few months experience now so we have some better ideas how to fight it.
Third, Some of the most susceptible likely have already succumbed so it is hitting a slightly healthier population.

it will be interesting to see the next few months unfold as things could still go either way. Hopefully things go well and death totals stay at a lower level, but the rising cases are a concern.

The death rate per infection seems to be declining for these reasons, and hopefully will continue to decline. This is the biggest reason why it was important to have done more sooner to stem the spread of coronavirus, to buy time for medical science to gain on the disease and thus lower the death toll. The death rate per infection will hopefully get less and less with each passing month, now.
 

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In South Carolina, before we reopened our daily cases state wide varied from 150-200. Then we hit 300 after reopening, 400, 500, 700, 800...and almost hit 1,000 today. Lots of butts puckering right now.
 

LibertyTurns

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Any southern state if the Governor wants to be re-elected would not stop college football and their fans from coming to football game.
I’m not sure what the issue is. Nobody’s putting a gun to your head to be on a football team & similarly nobody’s torturing fans to get them to go to a game. When did we start hating freedom in this country?
 

BleedGoldNWhite21

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I’m not sure what the issue is. Nobody’s putting a gun to your head to be on a football team & similarly nobody’s torturing fans to get them to go to a game. When did we start hating freedom in this country?

Do you REALLY need it explained to you for the millionth time? Let’s say you go to the game and get it. Then you go to the grocery store the next day and give it to the clerk who goes home to his wife who’s got pre-exisiting conditions and she gets it and has to fight for her life.

It’s not about freedom. It’s about caring about other people. Its trying to minimize unnecessary hotspots for spread of the disease. A football game is unnecessary and while everyone at the game made their choice to go to the game, everyone they come in contact with the next two weeks didn’t make that choice. There are more vulnerable people you may come in contact with because they have no choice(the clerk being an example of someone going to work).

How about this? If you attend a sporting event, you have to stay isolated at home for the next two weeks? Freedom has consequences, right? It’s about being allowed to make choices and weigh the consequences of your choices yourself, right? So what if that’s your consequence for your freedom? You get to decide if going to a ball game is worth mandatory social isolation for two weeks afterwards. If you decide it is, great, enjoy the game. If you don’t want to do that, don’t go to the game. No one is holding a gun to your head to go. However, that wouldn’t fly. Everyone would ***** and moan. So it may be in the best interest of society at large to just not have fans because the fans aren’t going to be responsible.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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Do you REALLY need it explained to you for the millionth time? Let’s say you go to the game and get it. Then you go to the grocery store the next day and give it to the clerk who goes home to his wife who’s got pre-exisiting conditions and she gets it and has to fight for her life.

It’s not about freedom. It’s about caring about other people. Its trying to minimize unnecessary hotspots for spread of the disease. A football game is unnecessary and while everyone at the game made their choice to go to the game, everyone they come in contact with the next two weeks didn’t make that choice. There are more vulnerable people you may come in contact with because they have no choice(the clerk being an example of someone going to work).

How about this? If you attend a sporting event, you have to stay isolated at home for the next two weeks? Freedom has consequences, right? It’s about being allowed to make choices and weigh the consequences of your choices yourself, right? So what if that’s your consequence for your freedom? You get to decide if going to a ball game is worth mandatory social isolation for two weeks afterwards. If you decide it is, great, enjoy the game. If you don’t want to do that, don’t go to the game. No one is holding a gun to your head to go. However, that wouldn’t fly. Everyone would ***** and moan. So it may be in the best interest of society at large to just not have fans because the fans aren’t going to be responsible.

This is ridiculous. If a clerk at a grocery has a wife with pre-existing conditions he should assume every person he comes into contact with has the virus. The precautions he takes is his choice as to what he takes home to his wife. You’re premise is that the poor clerk is getting unknowingly blindsided - is the clerk oblivious to the world? How bout this, since we are in month 3 of the public panic - assume every person has the virus and make choices accordingly.
 

BleedGoldNWhite21

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This is ridiculous. If a clerk at a grocery has a wife with pre-existing conditions he should assume every person he comes into contact with has the virus. The precautions he takes is his choice as to what he takes home to his wife. You’re premise is that the poor clerk is getting unknowingly blindsided - is the clerk oblivious to the world? How bout this, since we are in month 3 of the public panic - assume every person has the virus and make choices accordingly.

So what should the clerk do? He has to work. Sure getting your panties in a wad over not watching a child’s game.
 

LibertyTurns

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Do you REALLY need it explained to you for the millionth time? Let’s say you go to the game and get it. Then you go to the grocery store the next day and give it to the clerk who goes home to his wife who’s got pre-exisiting conditions and she gets it and has to fight for her life.

It’s not about freedom. It’s about caring about other people. Its trying to minimize unnecessary hotspots for spread of the disease. A football game is unnecessary and while everyone at the game made their choice to go to the game, everyone they come in contact with the next two weeks didn’t make that choice. There are more vulnerable people you may come in contact with because they have no choice(the clerk being an example of someone going to work).

How about this? If you attend a sporting event, you have to stay isolated at home for the next two weeks? Freedom has consequences, right? It’s about being allowed to make choices and weigh the consequences of your choices yourself, right? So what if that’s your consequence for your freedom? You get to decide if going to a ball game is worth mandatory social isolation for two weeks afterwards. If you decide it is, great, enjoy the game. If you don’t want to do that, don’t go to the game. No one is holding a gun to your head to go. However, that wouldn’t fly. Everyone would ***** and moan. So it may be in the best interest of society at large to just not have fans because the fans aren’t going to be responsible.
I’m glad you’re capable of deciding what everyone else should do.

In the mean time us morons down here in Florida are going to keep doing what we’re doing:

A. Nursing homes are on lockdown
B. Frail & sick people are quarantining as well as the very old who are most at risk
C. If you’re otherwise healthy & feel sick, you stay home until you feel better
D. We wash our hands, wear face masks when in tight company of others
E. The folks in Miami are not opening back up like the rest of the state
F. We’re discouraging Yankees from invading our Great State

We’ve Almost completely wiped out the flu, we managed to take a significant cut out of hospital deaths from stuff like heart attacks somehow (draw your own conclusion), etc. We have basically the same rate of hospitalization and deaths since March when our semi-nutless Governor folded like a cheap tent and closed down the state as when we opened up for full business over a month ago.

My Mother-in-law has been self-quarantined now for 3 months and there’s no sign of her coming our of lockdown. We run groceries for her, pick up prescriptions, face time & she has a small cadre of friends who hang out that all are similarly self-isolating. It’s really not that hard & it’s called personal choice. I’ve got workers still quarantined at home because it’s not safe enough for them to come to work. We’re managing around it until they can safely return. All 1k+ Team Members don’t need to stay at home because I have 12 high risk Team Members. We don’t need some government lackey to mandate actions, we’re monitoring events as they unfold & acting accordingly. So should everyone else.
 

BleedGoldNWhite21

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I’m glad you’re capable of deciding what everyone else should do.

In the mean time us morons down here in Florida are going to keep doing what we’re doing:

A. Nursing homes are on lockdown
B. Frail & sick people are quarantining as well as the very old who are most at risk
C. If you’re otherwise healthy & feel sick, you stay home until you feel better
D. We wash our hands, wear face masks when in tight company of others
E. The folks in Miami are not opening back up like the rest of the state
F. We’re discouraging Yankees from invading our Great State

We’ve Almost completely wiped out the flu, we managed to take a significant cut out of hospital deaths from stuff like heart attacks somehow (draw your own conclusion), etc. We have basically the same rate of hospitalization and deaths since March when our semi-nutless Governor folded like a cheap tent and closed down the state as when we opened up for full business over a month ago.

My Mother-in-law has been self-quarantined now for 3 months and there’s no sign of her coming our of lockdown. We run groceries for her, pick up prescriptions, face time & she has a small cadre of friends who hang out that all are similarly self-isolating. It’s really not that hard & it’s called personal choice. I’ve got workers still quarantined at home because it’s not safe enough for them to come to work. We’re managing around it until they can safely return. All 1k+ Team Members don’t need to stay at home because I have 12 high risk Team Members. We don’t need some government lackey to mandate actions, we’re monitoring events as they unfold & acting accordingly. So should everyone else.

So again I ask you, what happens if you go to a game, get the virus and then give it to the grocery clerk who has to work and he gives it to his wife with pre-existing conditions? Literally nothing you said addresses that situation.
 
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So again I ask you, what happens if you go to a game, get the virus and then give it to the grocery clerk who has to work and he gives it to his wife with pre-existing conditions? Literally nothing you said addresses that situation.
And what happens if you go to a grocery store, get the virus and then give it to a clerk at another store, who, etc, etc? It can happen anywhere to anyone. So are we supposed to put our lives on complete hold to avoid any exposure at all?
 

WreckinGT

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I’m glad you’re capable of deciding what everyone else should do.

In the mean time us morons down here in Florida are going to keep doing what we’re doing:

A. Nursing homes are on lockdown
B. Frail & sick people are quarantining as well as the very old who are most at risk
C. If you’re otherwise healthy & feel sick, you stay home until you feel better
D. We wash our hands, wear face masks when in tight company of others
E. The folks in Miami are not opening back up like the rest of the state
F. We’re discouraging Yankees from invading our Great State

We’ve Almost completely wiped out the flu, we managed to take a significant cut out of hospital deaths from stuff like heart attacks somehow (draw your own conclusion), etc. We have basically the same rate of hospitalization and deaths since March when our semi-nutless Governor folded like a cheap tent and closed down the state as when we opened up for full business over a month ago.

My Mother-in-law has been self-quarantined now for 3 months and there’s no sign of her coming our of lockdown. We run groceries for her, pick up prescriptions, face time & she has a small cadre of friends who hang out that all are similarly self-isolating. It’s really not that hard & it’s called personal choice. I’ve got workers still quarantined at home because it’s not safe enough for them to come to work. We’re managing around it until they can safely return. All 1k+ Team Members don’t need to stay at home because I have 12 high risk Team Members. We don’t need some government lackey to mandate actions, we’re monitoring events as they unfold & acting accordingly. So should everyone else.
Yeah, there are plenty of images of out there of bars, beaches, and theme parks to discount what you seem to think the people in Florida are doing. If they were doing what you are saying then there wouldn’t be a massive surge of cases in Florida right now. You are supposedly discouraging Yankees from coming yet New York is actually the ones considering a forced quarantine of anyone coming from Florida. You try to paint a rosy picture but the truth is, it isn’t rosy out there and people don’t act responsibly the majority of the time. You guys have serious issues in Florida right now and you are planning to open Disney World in two weeks. Best of luck.
 

BleedGoldNWhite21

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And what happens if you go to a grocery store, get the virus and then give it to a clerk at another store, who, etc, etc? It can happen anywhere to anyone. So are we supposed to put our lives on complete hold to avoid any exposure at all?

It’s about limiting unnecessary risks. Sports are a luxury. It’s perfectly reasonable to cancel luxury events where literally tens of thousands of people gather during a global pandemic. Remember, we’re talking about fan-less games. We’re not talking about serious issues here. I don’t see how postponing a few meaningless leisure activities to protect people is “putting our lives on hold”. You can watch the games on TV. It’s like when fans give death threats after losses. It’s only a game. We don’t need to put people’s health at risk over a game.
 
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