Coronavirus Thread

[stech81]

I want everyone to know that you should be embarrassed to be an American citizen right now. We can’t buy a rug at HomeGoods and can’t hit a ball on a driving range, but we can roll through an Arby’s drive-thru. Wake up and realize this is a farce, I’m laughing one minute and frustrated the next.

I'm upset Arby's got my order wrong again.

 

[stech81]

Newly revealed news story that is obviously mostly ignored --- the AZ man who supposedly died from taking a commercial product containing chloroquine, was actually murdered by his abusive wife, who spiked a drink with the substance. Turns out that the victim is actually a very well educated engineer and would have never done anything as stupid as that.

Always watch your wife she is the only one who wants to kill you. Think I will stay up tonight and watch TV. Now where did she go ?

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Always watch your wife she is the only one who wants to kill you. Think I will stay up tonight and watch TV. Now where did she go ?

 

[takethepoints]

Putting forth guidelines is one thing, and something that most responsible people would follow, but issuing mandates? Sorry, don't buy it. That is the basis of a police state.
And read this article, which I have already posted for an idea of different ways things have been handled --- https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic/

If the authorities ordering people to do things in emergencies is a police state, we've had one since the birth of the Republic. And, I might add, we had a flu vaccine then. Jonas Salk (yes, that Jonas Salk) headed a team to put the first one together in the 1930s.

Now, could be not so many people at Woodstock had their vaccinations up to date, but …

 

[takethepoints]

I can't say I know what the Constitution authors wanted, but the language to me seems to have emphasized the differentiation between malleable processes and ironclad statements.

[Edit: Future justices and their decisions however... e.g. the Jacobson case where it seemed rather hypercritical to say that "we do not perceive that this legislation has invaded any right secured by the Federal Constitution" right after "we are unwilling to hold it to be' an element in the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States that one person, or a minority of persons, residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have the power thus to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State"]

That's not inconsistent at all. The federal constitution has rights and most (not all) of them have been "incorporated" by the due process clause of the 14th amendment to apply to the states. But the federal constitution does not include a "do what you want in an emergency, even if it endangers an entire community" amendment. (You can check.) State police power can't be used for everything - there are limits - but it can be used to get people to behave in such a way that they won't infect others with deadly diseases. The federal government doesn't have that power, except on federal reservations. States do.

Why is it that so many here won't see something as simple as that? What are governments for if they can't protect the lives of their citizens?

 

[lauraee]

Here's something interesting on opinion in Georgia, Tennessee, and Florida about re-opening:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...g-their-states-faster-than-their-voters-want/

So we'll see how that plays out in terms of people responding to the change in policy. You can lead a horse to water …

Btw, this article was linked in the post:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...-in-congress/D7735FCF39B843B9F3269FD39362FD66

Yep. Politicians make a sometimes fatal assumption about their constituents. They are usually far more ideologically inclined then their constituents, but they assume that since they were elected they must reflect their constituents views. Nope. Usually, people vote according to either party id or in terms of some particular issue they have an interest in. It's easy for them to get out of step.

No surprise governor is one of the 1st opening up the state, it's about the $. Gov doesn't want to pay the entire bill for unemployment. This forced businesses to reopen or stay closed & fire their employees, which means the employers will be responsible for paying some of that unemployment. I'm sure insurance companies also lobbied hard since now they no longer have to pay out on some of their insurance policies for business closures since the state is no longer mandating they be closed.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

If the authorities ordering people to do things in emergencies is a police state, we've had one since the birth of the Republic. And, I might add, we had a flu vaccine then. Jonas Salk (yes, that Jonas Salk) headed a team to put the first one together in the 1930s.

Now, could be not so many people at Woodstock had their vaccinations up to date, but …

A police state since the birth of the Republic??? How on earth do you figure that?
Maybe you should take a look at what AG Barr has said --- https://www.redstate.com/nick-arama...dont-lose-you-rights-because-of-an-emergency/

As far as flu vaccines and Woodstock, I guess you are not aware that flu strains change virtually every year, and that's why we have to keep getting them...because each new strain requires a new vaccine. If it was a universal flu vaccine, then we wouldn't have to do that; one time would be enough. But there is no universal flu vaccine. Regarding the Hong Kong flu, The Hong Kong flu was the first known outbreak of the H3N2 strain, though there is serologic evidence of H3N1 infections in the late 19th century. The virus was isolated in Queen Mary Hospital in Hong Kong. The Hong Kong flu strain shared internal genes and the enzymes with the 1957 Asian Flu (H2H2). Accumulated antibodies to the enzymes or internal proteins may have resulted in many fewer casualties than some pandemics. However, cross-immunity within and between subtypes of influenza is poorly understood. Since the 1969 version was more virulent than the 1968 version, I doubt there was a vaccine available of the people at Woodstock to get --- any of them. I am not a doctor, so I don't know these things offhand; I got the info online.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

That's not inconsistent at all. The federal constitution has rights and most (not all) of them have been "incorporated" by the due process clause of the 14th amendment to apply to the states. But the federal constitution does not include a "do what you want in an emergency, even if it endangers an entire community" amendment. (You can check.) State police power can't be used for everything - there are limits - but it can be used to get people to behave in such a way that they won't infect others with deadly diseases. The federal government doesn't have that power, except on federal reservations. States do.

Why is it that so many here won't see something as simple as that? What are governments for if they can't protect the lives of their citizens?

Again, individual states are BOUND BY THE BILL OF RIGHTS. Period.

 

[gthxxxx]

That's not inconsistent at all. The federal constitution has rights and most (not all) of them have been "incorporated" by the due process clause of the 14th amendment to apply to the states. But the federal constitution does not include a "do what you want in an emergency, even if it endangers an entire community" amendment. (You can check.)

You don't think the highlighted portions aren't inconsistent? How can a right/liberty be both "not invaded" yet unwilling to be held "secured" when it favors (passively, I might add) the minority? The fact that the direct contradiction appears in the same paragraph is what amuses me. Obviously there are limits; the constitution happens to talk a lot about the limits (e.g. "due process of law", "without just compensation", "equal protection", etc.) and even does say when the rights/liberties can be suspended, i.e. "when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it." Frankly, I thought the more solid ground would be to label the pandemic as an invasion and thus validating suspension, but the Jacobson case didn't take that direction.

State police power can't be used for everything - there are limits - but it can be used to get people to behave in such a way that they won't infect others with deadly diseases. The federal government doesn't have that power, except on federal reservations. States do.

This part is very vague. What can states do to "get people to behave" and what power does the federal government not have?

Why is it that so many here won't see something as simple as that? What are governments for if they can't protect the lives of their citizens?

What is simple? the government? Who says the government can't protect the lives of their citizens? As for what is the government for... well, the preamble of the Constitution does offer the following list: "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

 

[Deleted member 2897]

But the federal constitution does not include a "do what you want in an emergency, even if it endangers an entire community" amendment

Nobody is advocating for behavior like that.

 

[GT_EE78]

Worldometer has started adding charts,graphs and county info to the state level data
NJ,Pa,Fla,Tex,La,Ohio are there now
If a state name is a link in the spreadsheet, then there's lower level data
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

 

[GT_EE78]

How Treatable Is COVID-19?
A group of critical care physicians representing the University of Tennessee, the University of Wisconsin, Eastern Virginia Medical School, the University of Texas and a number of other institutions have formed the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Consortium and released a bulletin setting out a recommended treatment protocol. The protocol is based largely on the fact that it is not the virus, but the body’s reaction to the virus, that kills patients. The linked bulletin advocates early intervention–the key–using Vitamin C, heparin, Methylprednisolone and Hydroxychloroquine.
.
Three core pathologic processes lead to multi-organ failure and death in COVID-19:
1) Hyper-inflammation (“Cytokine storm”) – a dysregulated immune system whose cells infiltrate and damage multiple organs, namely the lungs, kidneys, and heart. It is now widely accepted that SARS-CoV-2 causes aberrant T lymphocyte activation resulting in a “cytokine storm.”
2) Hyper-coagulability (increased clotting) – the dysregulated immune system damages the endothelium and activates blood clotting, causing the formation of micro and macro blood clots. These blood clots impair blood flow.
3) Severe Hypoxemia (low blood oxygen levels) – lung inflammation caused by the cytokine storm, together with microthrombosis in the pulmonary circulation severely impairs oxygen absorption resulting in oxygenation failure.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/05/how-treatable-is-covid-19.php

 

[LibertyTurns]

No surprise governor is one of the 1st opening up the state, it's about the $. Gov doesn't want to pay the entire bill for unemployment. This forced businesses to reopen or stay closed & fire their employees, which means the employers will be responsible for paying some of that unemployment. I'm sure insurance companies also lobbied hard since now they no longer have to pay out on some of their insurance policies for business closures since the state is no longer mandating they be closed.

Most contracts, agreements, etc including insurance have force majeure clauses.

 

[bobongo]

I am not embarrassed to be an American; I am angry that the people responsible for those kinds of decisions have the gall to call themselves Americans and belittle the REAL Americans like me and you.

Excuse me, we are all real Americans.

 

[bobongo]

New projection by Wharton School of Business on economic impact and death toll give-and-take of re-opening.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/...rus-according-to-wharton-model-120049573.html

I think the big unknown is how much amelioration the warm weather will bring to spread of the virus.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

New projection by Wharton School of Business on economic impact and death toll give-and-take of re-opening.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/...rus-according-to-wharton-model-120049573.html

I think the big unknown is how much amelioration the warm weather will bring to spread of the virus.

After seeing how poorly all the previous models worked out, I have to admit i am dubious at best when new ones come out with massive doom and gloom. They claim even if we dont open up we will see 350,000 deaths from the virus by the end of june. How do they pull out that number? Then they say opening now will add another 250,000 deaths. We are at what 60,000 deaths now?(Undercounting/overcounting a few thousand) but we will end up with 600,000 deaths?

I agree the big unknown is how the weather will effect it. I am hoping it crushes it. Give us all some breathing room. But I am guessing it will only be a moderate to strong effect

 

[684Bee]

After seeing how poorly all the previous models worked out, I have to admit i am dubious at best when new ones come out with massive doom and gloom. They claim even if we dont open up we will see 350,000 deaths from the virus by the end of june. How do they pull out that number? Then they say opening now will add another 250,000 deaths. We are at what 60,000 deaths now?(Undercounting/overcounting a few thousand) but we will end up with 600,000 deaths?

I agree the big unknown is how the weather will effect it

Only way it happens is if some funny business is played with the numbers.

We’ve gotten way better at treating this (and in a short amount of time, too, which is pretty amazing). I think a lot of the issues have been with improper treatment (we just didn’t know).

We know more now and we’re getting better with each passing day of treating and preventing people from getting to the ICU-level stages.

 

[bobongo]

After seeing how poorly all the previous models worked out, I have to admit i am dubious at best when new ones come out with massive doom and gloom. They claim even if we dont open up we will see 350,000 deaths from the virus by the end of june. How do they pull out that number? Then they say opening now will add another 250,000 deaths. We are at what 60,000 deaths now?(Undercounting/overcounting a few thousand) but we will end up with 600,000 deaths?

I agree the big unknown is how the weather will effect it. I am hoping it crushes it. Give us all some breathing room. But I am guessing it will only be a moderate to strong effect

Here's the wishful thinking model. I'm guessing the revised 72,000 projection by August will probably be exceeded by the end of the week:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/5/2/21241261/coronavirus-modeling-us-deaths-ihme-pandemic

 

[GoldZ]

Well the good news is we know who is at risk. Nursing homes, older people, severely obese, etc. if those people are worried for their health, they can continue to isolate as long as they wish. But the rest of America should get moving again now that we know the risk is much lower than like 50 other things.

I don’t trust very many countries’ numbers. Testing is terrible in other countries. There is a massive undercounting of deaths. Do we really think 33% of all cases worldwide are in the United States when we are 5% of the total population? No way. I think we have to do our own thing based on our own data.

If the obese people here in the US were to elect to isolate, we would be shutdown for a looong time.

 

[bobongo]

After seeing how poorly all the previous models worked out, I have to admit i am dubious at best when new ones come out with massive doom and gloom. They claim even if we dont open up we will see 350,000 deaths from the virus by the end of june. How do they pull out that number? Then they say opening now will add another 250,000 deaths. We are at what 60,000 deaths now?(Undercounting/overcounting a few thousand) but we will end up with 600,000 deaths?

I agree the big unknown is how the weather will effect it. I am hoping it crushes it. Give us all some breathing room. But I am guessing it will only be a moderate to strong effect

The article is poorly written and contradictory in spots, but I think the Wharton model says 350,000 would be the death toll by the end of June, even if we re-open.

From the article:
"According to the Penn Wharton Budget Model (PWBM), reopening states will result in an additional 233,000 deaths from the virus — even if states don’t reopen at all and with social distancing rules in place. This means that if the states were to reopen, 350,000 people in total would die from coronavirus by the end of June, the study found."