Conference Realignment

[stinger78]

How does an owner of a 1965 Ford Mustang put a price on it? There is no intrinsic price. It is only what the owner is willing to accept to allow the car to leave his ownership. The ACC could say $100 billion and accept nothing less. The ACC could say $50 and a cup of coffee. The ACC decides at what price they would be willing to sell media rights to FSU. That is how it works in a free market economy.

Ultimately, since it involves a contractual obligation, it will be decided in a court.

 

[stinger78]

There is no combination of available teams that gets the ACC to $50-60M per team per year. That will not happen no matter if F$U stays or goes. There are no other teams out there that move the needle. The SECheat reportedly offered 9 league games per year and sEcSPN said no thanks.

 

[RonJohn]

Ultimately, since it involves a contractual obligation, it will be decided in a court.

How?

The ACC constitution and bylaws are a contract for being a member of the ACC. FSU can make arguments about the ability to leave the ACC and about the legality of the exit payments. Win or lose, they can make arguments. There is a procedure and method in the ACC bylaws for a member to leave the ACC, so FSU can do that.

With respect to the GOR, it is separate from membership in the ACC. All members of the ACC assigned the media rights to the ACC until 2036 regardless of whether they remain a member of the ACC. Leaving the ACC has no impact on the GOR. I believe the copyright lawyer whose blog was linked in this thread earlier said that courts do not force legal owners or assignees of copyrights to relinquish those rights. What laws do you believe would allow a judge to force the ACC to give or sell the media rights it owns to FSU?

 

[RonJohn]

lol. That's not how it works at all. Let me ask you this. Could the ACC sell FSU's media rights to OnlyFans?

No, but only because the broadcast rights are already sold to ESPN.

I think the ESPN contract is written so that ESPN also has the re-broadcast rights. The ACC doesn't sell re-braodcasts to local stations or things like that. However, if it could it would sell them to whoever gave them the most money. If that was OnlyFans, then they might. However OnlyFans revenue model doesn't work that way so it probably wouldn't happen regardless of the porn aspect.

The GOR is a copyright property assignment document. It is a property interest that FSU transferred to the ACC. The ACC can't "sell" the media rights as a whole to anyone, including FSU without the agreement of every single ACC member. They can negotiate and sell the broadcast and distribution rights of those media rights, but they have already been sold to ESPN so there is nothing left to sell. For FSU to purchase the media rights back, every single member of the ACC would have to agree. If Wake Forest will not sign an updated GOR for than $10 billion, then the ACC cannot sell the media rights for less than $10 billion. It is intellectual property that FSU assigned to the ACC. The way I described is exactly how negotiation for intellectual property works.

 

[WreckinGT]

The ACC constitution and bylaws are a contract for being a member of the ACC. FSU can make arguments about the ability to leave the ACC and about the legality of the exit payments. Win or lose, they can make arguments. There is a procedure and method in the ACC bylaws for a member to leave the ACC, so FSU can do that.

You can't argue that FSU can leave but they have to leave their media rights behind. That obviously doesn't make any sense. Their athletic department can't function without media rights nor would any other conference take them without media rights. Therefore they can't actually leave. In reality what you and others are suggesting is that because of the GOR, the ACC bylaws are actually meaningless. The GOR overrides them. You are also arguing that the GOR is a one sided document and that the ACC has no responsibility to its members due to the GOR. While I think the GOR has teeth, im not sure it is the hostage document that you think it is. I have literally not seen it mentioned anywhere else that the ACC will refuse to negotiate selling rights back to FSU if they choose to leave. GTSwarm is the only place that thinks the ACC will go this route for some reason.

 

[slugboy]

You can't argue that FSU can leave but they have to leave their media rights behind. That obviously doesn't make any sense. Their athletic department can't function without media rights nor would any other conference take them without media rights. Therefore they can't actually leave. In reality what you and others are suggesting is that because of the GOR, the ACC bylaws are actually meaningless. The GOR overrides them. You are also arguing that the GOR is a one sided document and that the ACC has no responsibility to its members due to the GOR. While I think the GOR has teeth, im not sure it is the hostage document that you think it is. I have literally not seen it mentioned anywhere else that the ACC will refuse to negotiate selling rights back to FSU if they choose to leave. GTSwarm is the only place that thinks the ACC will go this route for some reason.

You just said “You can't argue that FSU can leave but they have to leave their media rights behind. That obviously doesn't make any sense.”

That is exactly the agreement that FSU signed on multiple occasions. That is exactly what happens when an ACC team leaves before 2036.

The thing that’s a weak argument is arguing that FSU can take their rights with them.

 

[RonJohn]

You can't argue that FSU can leave but they have to leave their media rights behind. That obviously doesn't make any sense. Their athletic department can't function without media rights nor would any other conference take them without media rights. Therefore they can't actually leave. In reality what you and others are suggesting is that because of the GOR, the ACC bylaws are actually meaningless. The GOR overrides them. You are also arguing that the GOR is a one sided document and that the ACC has no responsibility to its members due to the GOR. While I think the GOR has teeth, im not sure it is the hostage document that you think it is. I have literally not seen it mentioned anywhere else that the ACC will refuse to negotiate selling rights back to FSU if they choose to leave. GTSwarm is the only place that thinks the ACC will go this route for some reason.

What? You do not seem to be making any logical sense.

YES, FSU can leave the ACC and leave their media rights behind. That is explicit in the GOR document that they voluntarily signed on two occasions. Their BOT pronounced that it was good that this document made if very financially difficult for any member to leave the ACC. They KNEW and UNDERSTOOD when they signed the document that it was very restrictive. They KNEW and UNDERSTOOD when they signed the document that a member could leave the conference, but the media rights would stay with the conference. They knew these items and signed the document. They then pronounced that this document was good because it would probably prevent ANY member from leaving the conference.

You do not have any understanding at all what the ACC constitution and bylaws are. You do not have any understanding at all about what the GOR is. They do not conflict. They do not "override" each other. They are separate things. The ACC constitution and bylaws have a method for a school to leave the conference. They do not have anything about media rights ownership in them. The GOR is an assignment of media rights contract. It specifically says that if a school leaves the conference, using the method in the ACC constitution and bylaws, that the media rights still remain with the conference.

This post from you makes me think that you have zero understanding about what the contracts are, and what they mean. You are speaking as though you are in a fog and all of it is swirled together. Words mean things. FSU can leave but leave their media rights behind. That is clearly spelled out in the contracts. You seem to be arguing about whether they actually would leave without their media rights, not whether they can contractually. Once again, I am not a lawyer, but in court a judge isn't going to determine what is fair. He is going to determine what is legal and how to apply that actual language of contracts. I think the biggest issue between us is that I am looking at contracts and laws, while you seem to be looking at how you feel things should be.

EDIT: And I'm not sure where you see me saying that the ACC "will refuse" to negotiate. It will be extremely hard for FSU to negotiate, because they can't reach a settlement with a majority of the ACC. Any change to the GOR that allows FSU to leave requires the signature of every single ACC member, so FSU has to negotiate to the level of the most stubborn member. The ACC members could refuse to negotiate, but I don't think I have ever said that they "will refuse".

 

[WreckinGT]

You just said “You can't argue that FSU can leave but they have to leave their media rights behind. That obviously doesn't make any sense.”

That is exactly the agreement that FSU signed on multiple occasions. That is exactly what happens when an ACC team leaves before 2036.

The thing that’s a weak argument is arguing that FSU can take their rights with them.

What im arguing is that you can't say the ACC bylaws clearly spell out how to leave the conference when no program can actually leave the conference because of the GOR. Its a decision of staying and continuing to exist or leaving and shutting down your football program because you will not be able to generate revenue to continue functioning. It's not a real decision. The ACC bylaws are meaningless in this case.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

I mean, if the ACC tried this then FSU would just leave the conference, and refuse payment back to the ACC. Everything will stay in court for years and years. They run a serious risk at that point of getting far less then they could get in a settlement.

There is absolutely no way the Big10 would put themselves at risk here with this nonsense you are posting. Basically the ACC would get to broadcast every FSU game including all the B10 games that FSU plays and monetize it. Not paying would breach any agreement for them to leave putting the original one back in play

 

[WreckinGT]

There is absolutely no way the Big10 would put themselves at risk here with this nonsense you are posting. Basically the ACC would get to broadcast every FSU game including all the B10 games that FSU plays and monetize it. Not paying would breach any agreement for them to leave putting the original one back in play

Im not saying that FSU or the Big 10 would attempt this, nor do I think that the ACC would ever try to hold FSU hostage or attempt to extort them. Just saying what measures might come next if the ACC wanted to go this extreme route. It would all end up in court eventually.

 

[JacketOff]

I’m sure you’re a very smart, well put together individual (wouldn’t be a Tech fan if you weren’t), but even somebody like myself with basically no legal knowledge can read your posts and see you’re way out of your element here. I don’t know if you’ve been heavily involved looking at FSU boards or FSU news and they’ve got you into some sort of cult, but almost none of what you’re arguing is relevant in court. I’m pretty sure there are actual lawyers here, or at least people with pretty intensive contract law knowledge, punching holes in your arguments and you continue to double, triple, and quadruple down.

FSU is not going to win a court case. They may come to an agreement with the ACC, but I believe they’re doing more harm than good for their public perception and future. They really never should’ve allowed it to go this far, and no matter what their fan boards say, they don’t have a case. At least not a compelling one. FSU’s best play is to drag out court proceedings for so long that the ACC just gives up and settles with them. But I don’t think the ACC is going to back down very easily, and they shouldn’t if they have the rest of the conference’s best interest in mind.

 

[RonJohn]

Well, you are finally understanding the difference between the bylaws and the GOR. A team can leave the conference without their media rights. It is explicit in the GOR document that the media rights assignment survives withdrawal from the conference.

What you are saying, without the hyperbole, is that is isn't economically feasible to leave the conference without retrieving your media rights. FSU understood this and applauded it back in 2013. FSU signed the agreement and was happy with it when they signed it. They weren't displeased until the last couple of years. You can't erase a signed contract just because you aren't happy 10 years into the contract. If contracts can be invalidated simply because one party is no longer happy with it, then contracts in general would be meaningless.

The way you use words and phrase things is affecting your ability to see what is actually happening. The ACC constitution and bylaws govern how a member school can leave the conference. You keep using "give up media rights". All ACC members have already "given up their media rights". The ACC owns those media rights until 2036, full stop. A school that wishes to withdraw can attempt to purchase their media rights back, but there is no legal or contractual obligation for the ACC to sell them. And once again, FSU knew this, and they knew the consequences of this when they signed the document. Their own BOT was publicly touting the fact that it would make it financially difficult for any member to leave the conference.

 

[slugboy]

There was a clear personal insult used in this thread. The post and the quotes have been deleted.

People are going to disagree in this and other threads. Insults are not an appropriate response

 

[WreckinGT]

I’m sure you’re a very smart, well put together individual (wouldn’t be a Tech fan if you weren’t), but even somebody like myself with basically no legal knowledge can read your posts and see you’re way out of your element here. I don’t know if you’ve been heavily involved looking at FSU boards or FSU news and they’ve got you into some sort of cult, but almost none of what you’re arguing is relevant in court. I’m pretty sure there are actual lawyers here, or at least people with pretty intensive contract law knowledge, punching holes in your arguments and you continue to double, triple, and quadruple down.

FSU is not going to win a court case. They may come to an agreement with the ACC, but I believe they’re doing more harm than good for their public perception and future. They really never should’ve allowed it to go this far, and no matter what their fan boards say, they don’t have a case. At least not a compelling one. FSU’s best play is to drag out court proceedings for so long that the ACC just gives up and settles with them. But I don’t think the ACC is going to back down very easily, and they shouldn’t if they have the rest of the conference’s best interest in mind.

We are all out of our element here. No one to my knowledge here has claimed to be a lawyer. We are all going off of analysis by actual lawyers elsewhere or our intense hatred of FSU and what we want to be true. Some here think the GOR gives the ACC the right to hold FSU hostage or extort them. Some think differently. I have never claimed that FSU will "win". Im not even sure what win means in this case. I have been pretty clear in my belief that the ACC and FSU will eventually settle this case as that is what the vast majority of lawyers who have written about this case seem to think. FSU will pay some large amount, probably far less than $572 million. Others think FSU will get nothing and the courts will throw everything out because FSU's lawyers are incompetent toddlers who have no idea what the law even is. We can just agree to disagree on these points.

 

[WreckinGT]

There was a clear personal insult used in this thread. The post and the quotes have been deleted.

People are going to disagree in this and other threads. Insults are not an appropriate response

Some other responses have clearly been made filled with insults. Call it both ways ref.

 

[stinger78]

How?

Any amount above (or below) the contract value of the GOR, which is set at the current contracted media amount for 3 or 12 years, if sEcSPN exercises the option. If it somehow deviates that will be decided by a judge somewhere.

However, sEcSPN hasn’t exercised the option yet, so as of today it’s only x-amount for 3 years, with potentially 9 more.

 

[RonJohn]

Any amount above (or below) the contract value of the GOR, which is set at the current contracted media amount for 3 or 12 years, if sEcSPN exercises the option. If it somehow deviates that will be decided by a judge somewhere.

However, sEcSPN hasn’t exercised the option yet, so as of today it’s only x-amount for 3 years, with potentially 9 more.

But just because something is sold or rented out for one value doesn't mean that it is that value to someone else. If you buy a rental house with a mortgage, your renter's payment is not legally required to match your mortgage payment. It isn't legally required to match your total cost including taxes, insurance, and repairs. It is decided between you and your renter. You might make money, or you might lose money.

The ACC owns the media rights of all member schools. It isn't contractually required to sell them at any price. It would require a negotiation that the ACC agrees with.

 

[orientalnc]

Any amount above (or below) the contract value of the GOR, which is set at the current contracted media amount for 3 or 12 years, if sEcSPN exercises the option. If it somehow deviates that will be decided by a judge somewhere.

However, sEcSPN hasn’t exercised the option yet, so as of today it’s only x-amount for 3 years, with potentially 9 more.

The IP rights the ACC owns do not have a specific $ value associated with them. They own the rights of every ACC member school through 2036. It doesn't matter how much money might be at stake and the ACC can set the price of rights they might be willing to sell back to FSU.

 

[stinger78]

The IP rights the ACC owns do not have a specific $ value associated with them. They own the rights of every ACC member school through 2036. It doesn't matter how much money might be at stake and the ACC can set the price of rights they might be willing to sell back to FSU.

Understood. However, if the ACC desires to negotiate an exit, they will have to value them somehow. They can simply say no incessantly and refuse to negotiate to sell them. However, if they can sell them for more than they would be valued at would that not make sense? So it is sensible to have an understood value for them.

 

[stinger78]

But just because something is sold or rented out for one value doesn't mean that it is that value to someone else. If you buy a rental house with a mortgage, your renter's payment is not legally required to match your mortgage payment. It isn't legally required to match your total cost including taxes, insurance, and repairs. It is decided between you and your renter. You might make money, or you might lose money.

The ACC owns the media rights of all member schools. It isn't contractually required to sell them at any price. It would require a negotiation that the ACC agrees with.

I never said the ACC is contractually obligated to sell them.