Conference Realignment

[Techster]

NDAs don't appear to be an issue with FSU releasing information. I highly doubt that the Big10 and FSU have been in any serious talks. FSU thinks they are a very big shot, but I think it is highly likely that the Big10 would prefer to have Miami over FSU, and not by just a small margin.

It depends on how the NDAs are written, and how FSU exposes it. Also, knowing there are giant checks waiting for them in the B1G, I highly doubt FSU would want to ruin that. They're dumb, but that's cut off your nose, ears, tongue, eyes dumb.

You're welcome to your opinion on FSU's B1G viability, but the FSU and B1G rumors have been around for years (much like B1G and UNC/UVA/GT)...and it also coincides with FSU's emphasis on expanding their research allocation budget to gain AAU admittance.

We'll see. I suspect FSU will get out of the ACC GOR earlier than 2036 (for a hefty price), and FSU's destination will be known shortly after.

 

[Techster]

The assumption is that they are doing something rational but it's possible that they aren't. It's likely a handful of individuals making these decisions. GT left the SEC and turned down the BIG, were either of those decision rational, much less some kind of 3D chess? No, they were ****ty, shortsighted decisions made by a handful of individuals.

Well, GT is its own kind of special when it comes to business decisions...unfortunately...

 

[RonJohn]

It depends on how the NDAs are written, and how FSU exposes it. Also, knowing there are giant checks waiting for them in the B1G, I highly doubt FSU would want to ruin that. They're dumb, but that's cut off your nose, ears, tongue, eyes dumb.

This is what I have been saying about the way the are acting now. They were happy with the ACC contract while it was beneficial to them, in their opinion. They are currently releasing NDA information. They are currently trashing everyone else in their alliance. If you have a business, are you going to invite a new partner who burned his old business to the ground because of a disagreement with his former partners? Past behavior is very predictive of future behavior. I think the Big10 and the SEC both know that. FSU is harming their own chances with the way they are acting.

 

[Techster]

This is what I have been saying about the way the are acting now. They were happy with the ACC contract while it was beneficial to them, in their opinion. They are currently releasing NDA information. They are currently trashing everyone else in their alliance. If you have a business, are you going to invite a new partner who burned his old business to the ground because of a disagreement with his former partners? Past behavior is very predictive of future behavior. I think the Big10 and the SEC both know that. FSU is harming their own chances with the way they are acting.

Again, you're welcome to your opinion. FSU represents a HUGE untapped market to the B1G, and the sooner they can get into it, the more money and access they will get. You and I may think what FSU is doing is offputting, but the B1G may think it's a necessary evil to gain marketshare and increase value of the conference.

Not to get political, but it's like doing business with China. Companies know the deal with the devil you're making by doing business with/in China, but they hold their noses and do it because of the enormous economic returns. Sure the B1G may regret their deal with FSU decades down the road and they may be letting in untold drama, but acquiring an asset that opens up the Florida market is price they're willing to pay.

 

[stinger78]

Yet the entire SEC has always gotten to claim their superiority off the strength of one or two dominant teams.

They definitely have their dominant programs as well as their perennially good programs. Their dominant programs have often been the best, and their perennially good ones are top 10-15. The top of that bunch is no joke. The rest are just like all others, maybe even a bit worse on average at times.

My issue is the SECheat hoi polloi act like they get bonus points due to proximity with Bama, UGAg, UF, and LSU whether they ever play them or not. For example, UGAg plays LSU and Bama sparingly, but play Auburn, UF, USCe, Vandy, Kentucky, etc. every year. Same with UK, VU, etc.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

The assumption is that they are doing something rational but it's possible that they aren't. It's likely a handful of individuals making these decisions. GT left the SEC and turned down the BIG, were either of those decision rational, much less some kind of 3D chess? No, they were ****ty, shortsighted decisions made by a handful of individuals.

Leaving the SEC and turning down the B1G may or may not have been bad decisions. Personal opinions will vary. But that is way different from the suicide mission FSU seems to be on.

Totally inexplicable unless something else is going on behind the scenes.

 

[stinger78]

Leaving the SEC and turning down the B1G may or may not have been bad decisions. Personal opinions will vary. But that is way different from the suicide mission FSU seems to be on.

Totally inexplicable unless something else is going on behind the scenes.

If they have an offer from the B1G on the table contingent on their exit from the CC, then maybe so. We don't know that, though.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

If they have an offer from the B1G on the table contingent on their exit from the CC, then maybe so. We don't know that, though.

Yep.

My point was that Tech leaving the SEC and not joining the B1G may have been bad decisions but they were not irrational. Simply making the wrong decision does not mean it wasn’t arrived at rationally.

What FSU is doing appears to be totally irrational.

 

[Techster]

Yep.

My point was that Tech leaving the SEC and not joining the B1G may have been bad decisions but they were not irrational. Simply making the wrong decision does not mean it wasn’t arrived at rationally.

What FSU is doing appears to be totally irrational.

It's only irrational if there's not a payoff. If they are able to get out of the GOR early and at a reduced price, and they join the B1G and get to cash those big checks...it won't be irrational at all. It will be unsavory to all of us, but they got what they wanted.

We'll see. I don't think we'll see a resolution for years, but that day will come and ultimate judgement will be determined by the outcome.

 

[Techster]

Has anyone questioned why the ACC is keeping the GOR under lock and key, and puts special stipulations on how and when members can view it? Seems rather curious they have the only copy and puts restrictions on accessing it. Members have to literally fly to the league office and view it. No copies of the final GOR can be made.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Again, you're welcome to your opinion. FSU represents a HUGE untapped market to the B1G, and the sooner they can get into it, the more money and access they will get. You and I may think what FSU is doing is offputting, but the B1G may think it's a necessary evil to gain marketshare and increase value of the conference.

Not to get political, but it's like doing business with China. Companies know the deal with the devil you're making by doing business with/in China, but they hold their noses and do it because of the enormous economic returns. Sure the B1G may regret their deal with FSU decades down the road and they may be letting in untold drama, but acquiring an asset that opens up the Florida market is price they're willing to pay.

Can you elaborate on the HUGE untapped market to the B1G? Tallahassee is not a big market. I think the B1G is content to let the chips fall where they may with the ACC over the next 10 years. They'll only get involved if it starts to fall apart or reaches the end of the contract. I suspect we'll see movement when the B1G contract is up for renewal in 2030. That's close enough that you may have schools jump. If they just wanted access to the Florida market, they'd have gobbled up UCF or USF.

 

[Techster]

Yep.

My point was that Tech leaving the SEC and not joining the B1G may have been bad decisions but they were not irrational. Simply making the wrong decision does not mean it wasn’t arrived at rationally.

What FSU is doing appears to be totally irrational.

Eh, a lot of people think the reason for GT leaving the SEC was irrational. Again, whether something is irrational or rational is a matter of opinion. Dodd's reasoning may be rational to GT fans (personally, I am not of that opinion given the headwinds for the 140 rule at that time), but to most observers at the time and today, they still question it. Even Bill Curry is on record as questioning it...in his famous Curry PC way.

In terms of the B1G, I don't think Peterson was being "irrational" in the hysterical sense, but the reason he gave for not leaving the ACC is rather curious given college sports itself is a business. Of course, it's GT, and GT is pretty familiar with bad business decisions.

Hopefully the B1G comes knocking on our door again.

 

[dmurdock]

Apparently, in 2015 FSU had a big push to improve it's academic standing and achieve AAU membership. B1G membership was probably a major reason for the push. According to this article, progress has stalled under the current leadership team and BOT: https://www.tallahassee.com/story/o...-fsu-where-is-the-accountability/70318114007/.

There are 3 Florida schools with AAU membership: UF (1985), USF (2023) and Miami (2023). I'm guessing the B1G would be fine with either FSU (Brand, large public state university) or Miami (Brand, large TV market) to get into Florida. But I don't think FSU gets a B1G invite without AAU membership and with the current BOT I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

 

[RonJohn]

Has anyone questioned why the ACC is keeping the GOR under lock and key, and puts special stipulations on how and when members can view it? Seems rather curious they have the only copy and puts restrictions on accessing it. Members have to literally fly to the league office and view it. No copies of the final GOR can be made.

Has that been verified, or is it only based on the demand letter from the Florida AG?

There is a copy of the 2013 GOR available to the public. It was gained from UNC with a FOIA request. It is a copy with only the signature of the UNC representative.(president I believe, but I haven't looked at it today to verify). There was a copy of the 2016 amendment that was made public after the FSU and ACC court filings, so it actually is available to anybody now. IF the only copy of the GOR amendment was at the ACC headquarters, it could be because when there were copies at each school, a FOIA request made it public.

 

[orientalnc]

Has anyone questioned why the ACC is keeping the GOR under lock and key, and puts special stipulations on how and when members can view it? Seems rather curious they have the only copy and puts restrictions on accessing it. Members have to literally fly to the league office and view it. No copies of the final GOR can be made.

The GOR is NOT under lock & key. It is publicly available. It's the ESPN contract with the ACC that the member schools may not have access to without traveling to Charlotte. As my friend noted, FSU is not a party to the ACC/ESPN contract, so they are not necessarily entitled to a copy. Apparently the ACC will allow representatives from member schools to view the contract if they sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA). The ACC is claiming that FSU is in violation of the NDA they signed (those are not the words the ACC used in the revised court filing) in order to inspect the contract in preparation for their lawsuit against the ACC. The "pile on" by the ACC is that they are claiming the disclosure caused the ACC substantial financial damage and that FSU should be barred from the ACC BOT as a result until the competing lawsuits are resolved.

This is not an unusual claim. Corporate boards occasionally seek to ban a director from meetings and votes if they suspect a conflict of interest until the conflict is resolved. The ACC said the actions by FSU create a conflict of interest. The revised suit says FSU is acting in detriment to the conference and should not be allowed to sit on the board and vote on questions before the board. And that FSU should pay for the harm they have caused the conference.

 

[forensicbuzz]

The GOR is NOT under lock & key. It is publicly available. It's the ESPN contract with the ACC that the member schools may not have access to without traveling to Charlotte. As my friend noted, FSU is not a party to the ACC/ESPN contract, so they are not necessarily entitled to a copy. Apparently the ACC will allow representatives from member schools to view the contract if they sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA). The ACC is claiming that FSU is in violation of the NDA they signed (those are not the words the ACC used in the revised court filing) in order to inspect the contract in preparation for their lawsuit against the ACC. The "pile on" by the ACC is that they are claiming the disclosure caused the ACC substantial financial damage and that FSU should be barred from the ACC BOT as a result until the competing lawsuits are resolved.

This is not an unusual claim. Corporate boards occasionally seek to ban a director from meetings and votes if they suspect a conflict of interest until the conflict is resolved. The ACC said the actions by FSU create a conflict of interest. The revised suit says FSU is acting in detriment to the conference and should not be allowed to sit on the board and vote on questions before the board. And that FSU should pay for the harm they have caused the conference.

I'm still interested in the whole retroactive notice of separation FSU has pled for Florida judge to instruct them in. If that were the case, then FSU has given notice to the ACC and, therefore, per the ACC bylaws, FSU would have forfeit their voting interest in any ACC business. FSU hasn't formally submitted this paperwork, but would like to Court to make it retroactive to before this season. It will be interesting how that all plays out.

 

[ThatGuy]

If they have an offer from the B1G on the table contingent on their exit from the CC, then maybe so. We don't know that, though.

One interesting tidbit -

Supposedly part of the Grant of Rights (Paragraph 6, according to this Cal analysis) states that any and all schools will not enter into an agreement that's inconsistent with the GoR, nor will they take any action that would affect the validity or enforcement of the agreement. The Cal attorney's interpretation is that:

Basically, even talking about leaving this Agreement could be a breach of this Agreement.

So another reason for trying to strike down the Grant of Rights is that if they do have an offer on the table, they likely agreed to not even entertain said offer while under the Grant of Rights.

Who knows as to whether that's enforceable - seems a bit of an overreach to me, on the part of the GoR. But it's just another thing that could trip up FSU's bid to jump ship to another, prettier vessel.

I had a conversation with an FSU fan who claims that in Florida, if there's no severability clause in a contract, then striking one clause down renders null the entire contract. And there's no severability clause in the Grant of Rights document.

According to my attorney (based on other legal issues I've dealt with), in most states across the U.S., severability is now considered a default attribute of contracts, which means that if you sue re: one clause and win, the other clauses are assumed to stand (unless there's some sort of interdependency that affects the specific nature of the complaint). If that's not the case in Florida, that could present another reason a) why FSU is throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks in hopes of rendering one single clause invalid and b) why the ACC tried to proactively sue to move the lawsuit to a jurisdiction closer to it.

Either way, I'm beginning to feel like this lawsuit is like watching the movie Inception.

 

[Techster]

The GOR is NOT under lock & key. It is publicly available. It's the ESPN contract with the ACC that the member schools may not have access to without traveling to Charlotte. As my friend noted, FSU is not a party to the ACC/ESPN contract, so they are not necessarily entitled to a copy. Apparently the ACC will allow representatives from member schools to view the contract if they sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA). The ACC is claiming that FSU is in violation of the NDA they signed (those are not the words the ACC used in the revised court filing) in order to inspect the contract in preparation for their lawsuit against the ACC. The "pile on" by the ACC is that they are claiming the disclosure caused the ACC substantial financial damage and that FSU should be barred from the ACC BOT as a result until the competing lawsuits are resolved.

This is not an unusual claim. Corporate boards occasionally seek to ban a director from meetings and votes if they suspect a conflict of interest until the conflict is resolved. The ACC said the actions by FSU create a conflict of interest. The revised suit says FSU is acting in detriment to the conference and should not be allowed to sit on the board and vote on questions before the board. And that FSU should pay for the harm they have caused the conference.

According to this BOTH GOR and the media contracts are under lock and key. Members may view both, but they must travel to league offices to view it, and no notes, photos, or copies of it can be made.

6 wild things we learned from Florida State board of trustees meeting about exiting the ACC

Florida State is officially taking it’s issues with the ACC to court, and it may cost the school A LOT of money.

ftw.usatoday.com

There's a copy of the 2013 and 2016 GOR available, the most recent one is not available, and certainly not in its executed form. It may be available now (I haven't found it) due to litigation and the discovery process, but it's telling that you can't google and find a copy of it given how much media attention that's centered around it.

If the current one is publicly available as you say, please provide a copy for everyone. It should be easy to find, right? I'd certainly love to see what it says.

BTW...here's the copy of GOR (not fully executed) that everyone is citing. There have been changes to it since, and amendments have been added. That final copy is NOT available to the public.

https://www.cbs17.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2022/07/ACC-GOR.pdf

 

[CEB]

I'm still interested in the whole retroactive notice of separation FSU has pled for Florida judge to instruct them in. If that were the case, then FSU has given notice to the ACC and, therefore, per the ACC bylaws, FSU would have forfeit their voting interest in any ACC business. FSU hasn't formally submitted this paperwork, but would like to Court to make it retroactive to before this season. It will be interesting how that all plays out.

Couple of thoughts…

First, why would they do this? They can’t leave, so giving notice of leaving takes away their ability to vote and next year, it takes away any revenue they’re entitled to as a member. Seems pretty brazen to assume this will actually shake out within a year and in a manner that they leave with media rights to sell another conference. I’m very clearly missing something… not a surprise.

Second, it seems to me that there was a pretty heated debate and conference member vote regarding new conference members around the same time that they would want this to retroactively apply.
Not that the result would be changed, but if FSU participated, I don’t think they should have anything filed retroactively to a date prior to that participation. Can’t have their cake and eat it too. (Yup, @Techwood Relict and @orientalnc … I went there).

Finally, while I don’t think they should be allowed to file retroactively and I think it’s dumb of them to do so, I would actually love to see it. They lose voting rights and next year they lose revenue and their media rights. Hell of a gamble on their part and I would take bets on the rest of the ACC members splitting their revenues, buyout and VERY lofty GOR settlement payment.

 

[orientalnc]

According to this BOTH GOR and the media contracts are under lock and key. Members may view both, but they must travel to league offices to view it, and no notes, photos, or copies of it can be made.

6 wild things we learned from Florida State board of trustees meeting about exiting the ACC

Florida State is officially taking it’s issues with the ACC to court, and it may cost the school A LOT of money.

ftw.usatoday.com

There's a copy of the 2013 and 2016 GOR available, the most recent one is not available, and certainly not in its executed form. It may be available now (I haven't found it) due to litigation and the discovery process, but it's telling that you can't google and find a copy of it given how much media attention that's centered around it.

If the current one is publicly available as you say, please provide a copy for everyone. It should be easy to find, right? I'd certainly love to see what it says.

BTW...here's the copy of GOR (not fully executed) that everyone is citing. There have been changes to it since, and amendments have been added. That final copy is NOT available to the public.

https://www.cbs17.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2022/07/ACC-GOR.pdf

Florida is a sunshine state, so every state and local board meeting (other than personnel related) is public. I do not believe the FSU Board of Trustees does not know the contents of the GOR they signed, or authorized the President to sign, and that those meeting minutes, including the GOR are not in the public domain.