Conference Realignment

[a5ehren]

Their COA isn't much different than ours. They sponsor more sports, but not $65M worth.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

Well, that chart both helps and hurts FSU's case. It seems a lot of programs across all conferences are losing money, but the ACC does have a greater percentage of programs losing money.

 

[RonJohn]

Well, that chart both helps and hurts FSU's case. It seems a lot of programs across all conferences are losing money, but the ACC does have a greater percentage of programs losing money.

Don't trust "reported" operating margin numbers from anyone. Maybe a publicly traded company will put out decent numbers because of SEC reporting requirements, but don't just trust them either. There are a lot of ways to count money. Most if not all of the schools do not report revenue as every dollar that comes into an athletic department account, nor expenses as every dollar that comes out of an athletic department account. It isn't the same as looking at your personal checking account and deciding gain/loss based on whether the account is higher or lower this year than last year.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Don't trust "reported" operating margin numbers from anyone. Maybe a publicly traded company will put out decent numbers because of SEC reporting requirements, but don't just trust them either. There are a lot of ways to count money. Most if not all of the schools do not report revenue as every dollar that comes into an athletic department account, nor expenses as every dollar that comes out of an athletic department account. It isn't the same as looking at your personal checking account and deciding gain/loss based on whether the account is higher or lower this year than last year.

Not being an accountant I don’t know what kind of budgeting “tricks” are available to an athletic program.

Do they used anything like accelerated cost recovery, spreading capital expenses across several years, showing losses on paper that don’t really impact daily operations, etc ?

I also wonder if you were at a public event and asked an AD how they can operate at a $20 million loss per year how they would respond? What would be the PR advantages of showing a program running deep in red ink? And what do they say in private meetings with donors that they don’t say in public?

The more I read the less I know about what is going on in athletic departments financially.

 

[RamblinRed]

While the loss of F$U would not be a good thing for the conference, let's not overstate outcome. There would still be 15 ACC teams plus a PT ND (BC, Cuse, Louisville, ND*, UVA, VPI, UNCheat, NCSU, Dook, WFU, Clemson, GT, Miami, SMU, Cal, and Stanford). The conference won't be adding UTSA or USA. We would be minus one gigantic crybaby but likely adding another team, probably of the caliber of UCF, OK St, or Kansas. All would not be lost.

It would actually be 16 + ND. You forgot Pitt. ND is a full voting member of the ACC.

 

[Techwood Relict]

No, it's French for "we don't sell cake."

Some bodegas don't sell cake, but that's probably boulangerie-ing the point......

I'll let it go now.....

 

[orientalnc]

Some bodegas don't sell cake, but that's probably boulangerie-ing the point......

I'll let it go now.....

That's a good one. I withdraw from the match.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

Did I see that Indiana is Number 1? Proves a point, I guess.

 

[GTJackets]

Some bodegas don't sell cake, but that's probably boulangerie-ing the point......

I'll let it go now.....

That's a good one. I withdraw from the match.

I'm going to need an official ruling here. Techwood quit and then what appears to be one minute later oriental withdrew. What are we supposed to do with this lack of resolution? Do we give it to oriental since Techwood quit first?

 

[orientalnc]

I'm going to need an official ruling here. Techwood quit and then what appears to be one minute later oriental withdrew. What are we supposed to do with this lack of resolution? Do we give it to oriental since Techwood quit first?

I guess the 10 run rule doesn't apply here???

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I'm going to need an official ruling here. Techwood quit and then what appears to be one minute later oriental withdrew. What are we supposed to do with this lack of resolution? Do we give it to oriental since Techwood quit first?

Was there contact before the foul ?

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

What I find the funniest thing in all this is ACC got their feelings hurt when FSU said it was a poorly run conference. And are now fighting hard over their reputation all while everyone, both member schools and those outside the ACC, know the ACC has been run poorly. It’s just hilarious to me. This is the hardest the ACC has fought on anything in 3 decades and it’s against one of their own members. The ACC never fights on things that actually matter yet when a member school calls them out they fight back.

Should I list the history of the March Madness invites? Let’s just say that in 2023 the SEC and BIG both got 8 invites. How many did the ACC get you may ask? 5. I sure don’t remember our missing in action Commissioner say a word. Has anyone other than me noticed the ACC hasn’t gotten an invite to the college football playoff in the last 3 seasons? The ACC has been relegated and yet no one cares. Just wait till we beat UGA and they get an invite to the 12 team playoff and we don’t. I’ll be laughing while I cry. Between GT’s horrible past decision making and the ACC’s horrible decision making we deserve each other. All we can do is hope that Cabrera has a handshake agreement for us to join the BIG when the ACC folds. But, more than likely, JBatt gets a better job at a SEC school and Cabrera gets out before we join the Sunbelt.

 

[ThatGuy]

What I find the funniest thing in all this is ACC got their feelings hurt when FSU said it was a poorly run conference. And are now fighting hard over their reputation all while everyone, both member schools and those outside the ACC, know the ACC has been run poorly. It’s just hilarious to me. This is the hardest the ACC has fought on anything in 3 decades and it’s against one of their own members. The ACC never fights on things that actually matter yet when a member school calls them out they fight back.

Should I list the history of the March Madness invites? Let’s just say that in 2023 the SEC and BIG both got 8 invites. How many did the ACC get you may ask? 5. I sure don’t remember our missing in action Commissioner say a word. Has anyone other than me noticed the ACC hasn’t gotten an invite to the college football playoff in the last 3 seasons? The ACC has been relegated and yet no one cares. Just wait till we beat UGA and they get an invite to the 12 team playoff and we don’t. I’ll be laughing while I cry. Between GT’s horrible past decision making and the ACC’s horrible decision making we deserve each other. All we can do is hope that Cabrera has a handshake agreement for us to join the BIG when the ACC folds. But, more than likely, JBatt gets a better job at a SEC school and Cabrera gets out before we join the Sunbelt.

I agree with some of what you said - but the first paragraph? Hogwash.

The ACC is fighting this tooth and nail because its survival depends on it. If FSU gets out easily, and can simply walk away from the Grant of Rights all the schools signed (with the stated goal of keeping the conference together and warding off situations just like this one), other schools will have the precedent to do the same, as soon as they shop around and get another offer. And as we've seen in this age of expansion, everyone not in the SEC or B1G wants to shop around and get another offer.

I agree that the ACC has made some boneheaded decisions in the past, particularly with regard to PR. Heck, the SEC has taken the NFL's model of "conference first" and ridden it to great success, while the ACC deals with schools like FSU, UNC, Clemson, and others saying "me, me, me" and not understanding that "a rising tide lifts all ships." That's one of the major reasons the SEC has been seen as a dominant conference for years - and that's the PR side that the ACC is continually bungling (largely due to no leader convincing the ACC's members that it will be more in their interest to do so).

But "the ACC got their feelings hurt?" No way. This is a straight up business decision, and one that makes sense in real $s.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

What I find the funniest thing in all this is ACC got their feelings hurt when FSU said it was a poorly run conference. And are now fighting hard over their reputation all while everyone, both member schools and those outside the ACC, know the ACC has been run poorly. It’s just hilarious to me. This is the hardest the ACC has fought on anything in 3 decades and it’s against one of their own members. The ACC never fights on things that actually matter yet when a member school calls them out they fight back.

Should I list the history of the March Madness invites? Let’s just say that in 2023 the SEC and BIG both got 8 invites. How many did the ACC get you may ask? 5. I sure don’t remember our missing in action Commissioner say a word. Has anyone other than me noticed the ACC hasn’t gotten an invite to the college football playoff in the last 3 seasons? The ACC has been relegated and yet no one cares. Just wait till we beat UGA and they get an invite to the 12 team playoff and we don’t. I’ll be laughing while I cry. Between GT’s horrible past decision making and the ACC’s horrible decision making we deserve each other. All we can do is hope that Cabrera has a handshake agreement for us to join the BIG when the ACC folds. But, more than likely, JBatt gets a better job at a SEC school and Cabrera gets out before we join the Sunbelt.

Exactly this. Preaches. All day. All night.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

I agree with some of what you said - but the first paragraph? Hogwash.

The ACC is fighting this tooth and nail because its survival depends on it. If FSU gets out easily, and can simply walk away from the Grant of Rights all the schools signed (with the stated goal of keeping the conference together and warding off situations just like this one), other schools will have the precedent to do the same, as soon as they shop around and get another offer. And as we've seen in this age of expansion, everyone not in the SEC or B1G wants to shop around and get another offer.

I agree that the ACC has made some boneheaded decisions in the past, particularly with regard to PR. Heck, the SEC has taken the NFL's model of "conference first" and ridden it to great success, while the ACC deals with schools like FSU, UNC, Clemson, and others saying "me, me, me" and not understanding that "a rising tide lifts all ships." That's one of the major reasons the SEC has been seen as a dominant conference for years - and that's the PR side that the ACC is continually bungling (largely due to no leader convincing the ACC's members that it will be more in their interest to do so).

But "the ACC got their feelings hurt?" No way. This is a straight up business decision, and one that makes sense in real $s.

I hear you and understand. I guess our difference of opinion comes in concerning the viability of the ACC. I simply say, the ACC is a dead conference walking already. And it’s not just me saying it. I know many folks here have their head in the sand or are young, but this conference is toast. We just had our undefeated champion kicked to the curb by Sankey and the BIG. And our commish didnt do a thing. I just find it comical that while this conference dies with fewer and fewer March Madness invites and now being completely shut out of any worthwhile football for 3 years running that we still have smart GT people buying this garbage. And the ACC front office, instead of fighting back against the SEC or BIG over the last decade while they relegated us, has chosen to fight a member instead. It’s like the store is being looted and set on fire and Phillips is in the parking lot yelling at someone who parked in a handicap spot. If the ACC is so strong and viable then let FSU, Clemson, and anyone else who wants to leave.

What is Phillips going to do over the next decade, sue every school that speaks the truth. We are basically in a hostage situation now. FSU just has the guts to say it out loud. What’s gonna happen in 11 months when we have 1 team in the 12 team playoff while the BIG has 4 and the SEC has 5? Phillips is basically beating his wife because he found she actually had the guts to pack a suitcase.

Listen, if the ACC office would have stood up for their members schools at any point in the past decade I would be there with you as I was born into an ACC family family (MD) and chose my path at GT, but every time an ACC school got left out of the college World Series, or March Madness, or the football playoffs they have done nothing. Imagine how bad ACC schools get screwed in the other sports no one is watching compared to the SEC. Sankey is in the mud twisting arms and threatening people so his teams (and money) get in - See Bama. And you’ll see it again on selection Sunday in a month. And you’ll see it again in baseball. It’s disgusting. It’s almost as if it’s purposeful by Phillips. But now, Phillips lines up the lawyers against FSU. Sankey is laughing his butt off right now. This conference is dead.

 

[Techwood Relict]

I'm going to need an official ruling here. Techwood quit and then what appears to be one minute later oriental withdrew. What are we supposed to do with this lack of resolution? Do we give it to oriental since Techwood quit first?

I'll be filing an affidavit soon alleging egregious mismanagement and lack of acknowledgement of my clear branding superiority.
It'll be in French subtitles.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I'll be filing an affidavit soon alleging egregious mismanagement and lack of acknowledgement of my clear branding superiority.
It'll be in French subtitles.

Can’t wait….

 

[orientalnc]

I'll be filing an affidavit soon alleging egregious mismanagement and lack of acknowledgement of my clear branding superiority.
It'll be in French subtitles.

Any disagreement about who quit or withdrew must be heard in North Carolina since GT is member of the ACC, which is headquartered in NC.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Any disagreement about who quit or withdrew must be heard in North Carolina since GT is member of the ACC, which is headquartered in NC.

 

[CEB]

One thing that has been lost in this (maybe I just lost it?) is the notion that ESPN has a contract thru ‘27 and an OPTION to exercise thru ‘36.
That’s the biggest bombshell in all of this, IMO, and I have seen it floated once in the FSU complaint and nothing about it again. No refuting it by ACC or ESPN and no one talking about it. Did I miss it?

Two things to consider with that:
1. If the ACC is as weak as some believe it is, there is no way ESPN would exercise the option regardless of anything else. I’m not sure that’s the case, but we’re going to find out soon if the FSU complaint is correct.
2. Options have all terms defined.. You can refuse the option and then negotiate, but you don’t negotiate the option and nothing in the option is left to finalize at a later date. It’s “take it or leave it,” typically. That’s where it gets interesting…
- FSU laid out ‘28-‘36 as unknown because the option, by nature, is not guaranteed. But I suspect the terms ARE known and Potentially the terms are more favorable to the ACC than the current deal. If they weren’t, FSU likely would’ve used them as further evidence that the deal is bad. (ie; even if ESPN exercised the option, look how bad the terms are)
- Regardless of what the terms are, if ESPN money is tight, they won’t exercise the option. It has to be lucrative (duh). Just because the option terms may be favorable to ACC, doesn’t mean they are guaranteed since ESPN doesn’t HAVE to exercise.
- Finally, regardless of the option terms, if an option actually does exist, and a decision on the option has to be made in ‘25 (both alleged in FSU complaint), and FSU really wants out… a massive legal battle raging at option decision time might be nothing more than FSU trying to put a finger on the scale with regard to ESPNs decision.

Conclusion: here’s what I think is happening and where I think this is going.
- Option terms are good for ACC but probably still short of BIG / SEC numbers.
- FSU doesn’t care and wants out regardless.
- FSU also believes ESPN will not exercise the option and wants to guarantee it by further muddying the waters with lawsuits and unrest ongoing at decision time. They don’t need a legal win, just a raging conflict, get it?
- Once ESPN refuses the option, FSU is going to argue that the contract is over and the GOR is done. It seems the GOR agreement does suggest that its existence is to fulfill the ESPN contract obligations.
- ACC will argue that the GOR term is 2036 and that they have the right to continued negotiation with ESPN even if the original contract option is refused. IF we get here, candidly, this looks like a weak argument for the ACC. I would expect FSU to get real traction here, so if ESPN refuses the option, lookout.

Caveat to the Conclusion:
Is this freaking option real?!?
That’s back to my original question. It was like a fart in the wind… floated and disappeared. Weird, but maybe the ACC has a real interest in it disappearing from public view.
IF THE OPTION IS REAL, it’s the biggest factor in the whole darned thing because ESPN has the ability to end all of the legal battling with their decision (regardless of their decision), and that decision will come before the lawsuits will work out.
Option refused - ACC will likely have swift and major restructuring.
Option exercised - GOR stands, ACC stands, discussion turns to what happens post-2036.