Conference Realignment

[Techster]

I read through both FSUs complaint and the GOR contract in entirety. I think this argument is conflating a few different things.

One, the media contract extending past 2027 to 2036 was in the original 2016 agreement. The agreement contains plenty of consideration in the form of media payments due. The only thing that isn't guaranteed after 2027 is minimum payments from the ACC Network if the network doesn't make enough money (or if ESPN decides to shut it down.) This is one of FSU's big complaints: there's no guaranteed payment minimum to the ACC after 2027. Just the share of the earnings from ACCN. So, ESPN could close down the ACCN and only have to pay for what games they air on their networks. But again, this was the agreement FSU signed. And it's not that there's no payments (consideration) after 2027. I see no reason this would be invalidated.

The extension to extend the GOR was a totally separate contract between the ACC and the schools. Which FSU agreed to. Has nothing to do with the ESPN agreement directly. And the consideration is the payments from the ACC to the schools which are the amount the ACC makes from selling the media rights and which will continue to 2036.

The amendment to the media contract which FSU is objecting to, and which didn't include 'additional consideration' was the agreement to move out the date ESPN had to commit to payments for 2027-2036 from 2021 to 2025. It's not the agreement to extend the contract. Only the date that ESPN has to tell the ACC that they are going to continue. The court could hold that that amendment was invalid, because there was no additional consideration given. However, it's not clear that that is the case. If the amendment has so much as a proforma '$1 and other goods' clause then it should be fine. And, again, the underlying contract has plenty of consideration. Even if the court holds that the amendment required additional consideration and didn't have any, what's the value of the extension? It doesn't cost the ACC or ESPN (or FSU) any money. The commitment date is still well before the date those payments will happen. Even if not, and the amendment is invalid because it didn't have additional consideration, it likely wouldn't invalidate the underlying contract. The court would just tell the ACC that later date is invalid and they have to demand ESPN commit to the option or not. (or re-sign the agreement with additional consideration). The GOR and media deal to 2036 would stand.

Good follow up. I haven't read the entirety of either documents (nor do I care unless it gives GT an advantage), but if what you're saying is accurate of the GOR and media contract with ESPN, then it sounds like FSU is throwing a hail mary.

 

[Papa Foxtrot]

This wil get very ugly for FSU.

Doesn't speak well for an F$U law degree...

 

[Vespidae]

Doesn't speak well for an F$U law degree...

I don’t think it’s the degree. The administration has completely turned over. They may not know the history they are arguing against.

Five years of legal fees? “Yes Mr FSU President. I think we could make that case …” Ka-Ching!

 

[WreckinGT]

Doesn't speak well for an F$U law degree...

Well, its probably worth noting that the judge assigned to the case has an FSU law degree.

 

[Papa Foxtrot]

then it sounds like FSU is throwing a hail mary.

It's hard to discern a cogent strategy from their actions to date. It seems like they're trying to be a big enough PITA and embarrassment to ACC to get concessions on the cost of exit.

 

[Papa Foxtrot]

Well, its probably worth noting that the judge assigned to the case has an FSU law degree.

If he doesn't recuse himself, then he's an idiot.

 

[tmhunter52]

If you gave the winning team more money than the losing team, there might be more incentive for teams to try and win bowl games.

If you paid significant sums to the players to play - $$ to each player on the winning team and $ to each player on the losing team, it might make a difference.

 

[RonJohn]

I confess I’m struggling to accept the state of bowl games are any different than they were in the past. Were not the bowl games just exhibition then? Did not only a couple of teams, eg top 2 in the AP / Coaches have any tangible gain to play for and everyone else was playing only for the school and team pride.

In 1990 there were 19 bowl games. This year there are 43. This year there were not enough eligible teams to play in all of the bowl games. JMU and JSU won enough games, but were not eligible due to being in the FBS transitional period. There is an overload of games, most of which are nothing but additional TV content for ESPN.

In 1990, GT was televised 7 of the 11 games. Only two of those were national broadcasts, unless you consider TBS national. There were four regular season games that were not televised at all and five that were only televised regionally. That is during the year that GT was undefeated and won the national championship. In 2023 11 of 12 GT games were televised. (SC State was steaming only). 9 of the 11 were nationally televised. Being on national TV is not the incentive that it used to be.

In 1990 there were some bowl games before Jan 1, but there were 8 games on Jan 1. Those games overlapped and competed with each other for viewership. Now, the large number of bowl games are spread out. There are only 5 bowl games on Jan 1. In 1990, there were two bowl games before Christmas, one on Christmas (in Hawaii), and the rest were between 12/27 and 1/1. Guess what that provided. It gave an opportunity for many fans to be able to travel to the games to watch their teams. The current bowl game schedules are not set up for fans to be able to travel to the games. December 26th in Detroit? How do you have Christmas with family and get to Detroit in time for a bowl game the next day?

The bowl games have changed from tourism events. They are no longer set up to encourage fans to travel to locations and spend money on vacations. They are now TV first events, and TV doesn't have the pull that it used to. TV is saturated with college football. CFB players are used to being on TV, and expect it every single game. It isn't a big deal anymore. There are more than double the amount of bowl games now. They are primarily made to be TV content. It is a business. The players aren't so stupid that they don't realize all of this, even though older fans are still stuck in the 1980s.

 

[CLHarperJackt]

Some FSU law graduates think that they’ll be able to keep a Florida venue, and that they have a good shot of winning under Florida law.
Their contention isn’t that the GOR isn’t valid. It’s that the GOR was extended to 2036 but the ESPN payments are not agreed to beyond 2027. That is, the GOR was extended but the ESPN contract and obligations weren’t. In that case, since member schools weren’t given something of value for the extension of GOR, the extended length isn’t valid.

Ah, so the argument is that there is no consideration for the contract, and that if there is no consideration then no contract was actually formed. Very interesting and if it is true, a very potent argument in contract law. Pop-corn

 

[Northeast Stinger]

An additional factor...“Playoff or bust” teams (like FSU, Ohio State, and even uga) that failed to reach their season’s goal may see little point in playing in a relatively meaningless bowl. Next year there will be a larger field of these teams that still have something to play for.

In contrast, although CBK’s goal is to win every game, I believe our realistic season goal was to get to a bowl, and once there, win it. So, most GT players still had a goal in front of them going into our bowl.

EXACTLY THIS.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I disagree with this, IMO, its a reflection of FSU not the ACC, the ACC has nothing to do with their players opting out ...

Doesn’t matter. ESPN sets the narrative and the ACC has proven itself helpless to counter it.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

If he doesn't recuse himself, then he's an idiot.

A precedent already established by the Supreme Court.

 

[MusicalBuzz]

In 1990 there were 19 bowl games. This year there are 43. This year there were not enough eligible teams to play in all of the bowl games. JMU and JSU won enough games, but were not eligible due to being in the FBS transitional period. There is an overload of games, most of which are nothing but additional TV content for ESPN.

In 1990, GT was televised 7 of the 11 games. Only two of those were national broadcasts, unless you consider TBS national. There were four regular season games that were not televised at all and five that were only televised regionally. That is during the year that GT was undefeated and won the national championship. In 2023 11 of 12 GT games were televised. (SC State was steaming only). 9 of the 11 were nationally televised. Being on national TV is not the incentive that it used to be.

In 1990 there were some bowl games before Jan 1, but there were 8 games on Jan 1. Those games overlapped and competed with each other for viewership. Now, the large number of bowl games are spread out. There are only 5 bowl games on Jan 1. In 1990, there were two bowl games before Christmas, one on Christmas (in Hawaii), and the rest were between 12/27 and 1/1. Guess what that provided. It gave an opportunity for many fans to be able to travel to the games to watch their teams. The current bowl game schedules are not set up for fans to be able to travel to the games. December 26th in Detroit? How do you have Christmas with family and get to Detroit in time for a bowl game the next day?

The bowl games have changed from tourism events. They are no longer set up to encourage fans to travel to locations and spend money on vacations. They are now TV first events, and TV doesn't have the pull that it used to. TV is saturated with college football. CFB players are used to being on TV, and expect it every single game. It isn't a big deal anymore. There are more than double the amount of bowl games now. They are primarily made to be TV content. It is a business. The players aren't so stupid that they don't realize all of this, even though older fans are still stuck in the 1980s.

Well I know you’re repeating the points you’ve made previously on my account so I’m sorry for having prompted you to do that.

But may i just say, and very respectfully: perhaps it’s your own mindset that is the problem? And, secondly, you’re making a lot of assertions either as a generality or without much substance to back it up.

For instance, “They are now TV first events” and so on. I don’t know what this even means — yes, the games are on TV; yes, they are broadcast for the benefit of viewers that may be interested. So. What?

Then you’re wanting to assert that a value of the bowl game is to make a TV appearance. But because there are so many in-season TV games “national TV is not the incentive that it used to be”. Well, what student athlete said it ever was? Also, who cares?

Nice to cherry-pick a 12/26 single bowl game in Detroit. Well, how about this: the family decides to spend some time on a vacation. Or get together later or make it work. This is really henpecking as a example.

Of that in 1990 only a handful of games prior Jan 1; well, sure, again there were much fewer games and — principally— there was no CFP that was going to drag out the season a week longer. Also: I definitely recall folks — that is, “fans” (and schools) complaining about the monthlong layoff from last game of season to the bowl game. So, again.. who cares if there are games in mid-December.

I could go on about your other points but this reply is long enough. The bottom line here: in 1990 this GT team would not have had a bowl game. This year in this system they did — and it was fantastic and enjoyed by all who wanted to enjoy it … the kids and fans alike. ESPN could not dampen that spirit.

And that is what the bowl games are about .. if one chooses that perspective.
Cheers!

 

[forensicbuzz]

To your first point, you seem to agree with me. Bowl games are nothing more than content for ESPN.

To your last point, you are assuming that the players have power to control things. They can't talk to other teams before entering the portal.(under the rules, and most actually know where they will land before entering.) The coaches might allow them to play and/or might allow them to remove themselves from the portal and return. The coaches also might throw them off the team as soon as they enter the portal. There aren't limits on timing once you are in the portal according to the rules. However, there are limits. A player will need to be at their new school the first or second week in January. A player can't realistically enter the portal on December 30th and then start talking to other teams and be on campus at the new school in a week or two. Players and teams do break the rules and talk beforehand. However, should we be proposing that players break the rules in order to continue to play for games that are in all reality totally meaningless? The bowls have been meaningless for at least 10 years. Fans keep on blaming the players who were in elementary school when those changes happened for causing the changes.

No, my first points were than it's fun for the fans to have an additional game after the regular season and that's it's an advantage for the coaches to continue teaching and working with the kids. that's not just content for ESPN. Now, the games don't mean ANYTHING anymore, so there is that.

Players have to enter the portal in the window (2 week extension for championship game participants), but they can get out any time they want. Not really an impediment for transferring. QB from FSU could have waited until after the New Year's Day bowl to enter the portal. Could have taken his time to find a new school. There are many reasons

 

[MusicalBuzz]

If you paid significant sums to the players to play - $$ to each player on the winning team and $ to each player on the losing team, it might make a difference.

I am sorry to nitpick and this not targeted at you.. but relative to my earlier post about “the fans” causing this mess of CFB and of bowls … this is what I’m referring to. The fans have made the game all about money with ideas like this. Now, sure: if issuing payments for bowl games seems like the right thing to do then do it. But make no mistake this mindset that the kids “are not paid” — when they absolutely have been all along vis-a-vis scholarship and benefits — is a key driver of this paradigm shift in CFB.

 

[wvGT11]

I was pretty much on FSU side after the CFB snub, but not so much now. They are acting like babies now. Even if it isn't the bowl you think you deserve, it's still a bowl and still in season. There are probably plenty of teams that would love to be in the orange bowl too.

Maybe it's me, but a player that chose to put their personal gain over the team, isn't one I would pick up from the portal. You don't know if they will.bail out next season when needed again

Just like with a career, someone who is a job hopper isn't someone I would want to hire.

 

[slugboy]

It’s possible to root for FSU in the Orange Bowl and against them in the lawsuit.

 

[ibeattetris]

Between UGA and FSU, 40 or more players won’t be participating in the Orange Bowl.

TAMU opted out of gator bowl when they were down 40 (and FSU is currently down 38). I honestly don't see a reason FSU should play the game.

 

[RonJohn]

Players have to enter the portal in the window (2 week extension for championship game participants), but they can get out any time they want. Not really an impediment for transferring. QB from FSU could have waited until after the New Year's Day bowl to enter the portal. Could have taken his time to find a new school. There are many reasons

He would not have been easily able to find a school to enroll in by Spring semester of 2024. As such he would not have been able to participate in Spring practice at his new school and would have to wait until Summer practice before starting with the new team. Is it possible for him to find a new team and start at the next school within 1 week? Sure it is possible, but is it likely? Rushed decisions are usually not the best decisions.

Also, according to the FSU fan boards, they are getting a highly rated QB transfer in. Not saying it definitely happened, but just suppose the FSU QB had a discussion with the coaches during which he was told that he is not the future of FSU football and he should look elsewhere. Under your idea of teamwork, should he still be required to delay his departure to play in the bowl game? Not saying you think this way, but there are a lot of fans who believe that when coaches push players out that they should leave immediately without any bad feeling but when players decide to leave on their own that they are traitors. Players can have their scholarships revoked any year. Players can be asked to leave for the good of the team. However, heaven forbid that any player actually tries to do what is in their best interest.

 

[ibeattetris]

Bowl Games are now basically meaningless exhibition games.

This has been the case for 90% (or more) of bowl games across the existence of them. Very rarely has there been more than 2, let alone 3 that had final ranking implications, and once the BCS era started, only the national championship mattered. Considering the life changing money that is on the line, I don't see why people are so shocked that players don't play in exhibitions.