Conference Realignment

[stinger78]

Some serious copium in here. If FSU and Clemson find some way out for some reasonable amount of money then UNC will gone within a week.

If I were a wagering type, I would ask for a wager on that.

 

[gtbb]

I won't be surprised if in 3 or 4 years SMU is a top 10 team. They don't have the pedigree of a Texas, Oklahoma, USC, but they were super good when they let the money flow (illegally). Now they can let it flow legally. Watch out.

SMU has deep pockets. And paying players is now allowable. SMU is located in Texas.

They will be a powerhouse, now that they're in a real conference.

 

[UgaBlows]

I had a long conversation with my UNC connected neighbor this morning. First, he echoed my point that UNC is not interested in bolting from the ACC. Second, they cannot say whether they have had any talks with the SEC or B1G. Their BOT members who are talking about suing the ACC do not represent the feelings of the BOG or the UNC administration. The buzz he got from his contact is that the B1G will not accept an ACC member right now unless they have their uncontested media rights and are willing to join with little or no media share. None of the current members are willing to take a smaller share to admit a new member unless that new member is Notre Dame. He said ND is the key to any B1G expansion. They do not want an odd number of teams and ND is the only team that moves the needle for them.

He refuses to reveal the identity of his contact. He told me it is not a coach.

I wonder if the ACC would be willing to negotiate with FSU or Clemson to leave the conference if the new conference allowed them to continue as an ACC media member for the duration of the ESPN deal. So, for example, uga playing FSU in Tallahassee would be part of the ACC package and the ACC would continue paying FSU their share of the media contract. And ESPN would extend the deal to 2036. FSU would get nothing from the SEC media deal.

Haven’t they already publicly made noise about leaving for over a year now? Remember that magnificent 7 that were working together to find a away out of the GOR?

 

[UgaBlows]

Some serious copium in here. If FSU and Clemson find some way out for some reasonable amount of money then UNC will gone within a week.

I agree, they are according to most supposed experts the most desirable expansion candidate (not counting ND) of any ACC school by far.

 

[LT 1967]

We used to be forward-looking. Personally, I thought we hit a home run in '92 with FSU, and then '04 and Miami and VPI. After we added Miami, which I think was announced in 2003, right after they'd played for a national title and only a few years after VPI had played for a national title, I was convinced back then that the ACC was going to be the best power conference.

Then, Miami fell apart, and FSU also fell apart at the same time.

As a conference, we were a national non-factor until FSU in 2013.

I think sometimes our conference made moves that seemed to be very smart. I thought getting Notre Dame locked into 5-games per year with the ACC was a great thing, too. But adding programs like Syracuse, Pitt, BC, Louisville...to me, that's when we started adding numbers without adding value.

Agree. It is amazing how far the perception of the ACC dropped from 2003 to present time. I have attached an article by Mark Bradley dated 5-14-03. When Mark wrote this article, the ACC had just added or had a commitment from Miami to join. From the article, it appears VT had not joined at least by the time this article was written. I realize that BC joined one year after Miami and VT.
.
Note the AJC poll shown by Mark which indicated that 68% of the respondents believed that the ACC would be the strongest football conference. This was a poll of 145302 respondents.

I feel like the fall of Miami, FSU, and VT plus the expansion to 14 diluted the product to the point that the ACC looked like one team (Clemson) plus a large number of Mediocre programs.

Also, ironic that the team making the most noise about leaving the ACC (FSU) is one of the major problems concerning league perception. Also, Miami never lived up to being the force that Mark discuses in the article.

 

[JoJaTeck]

Also, ironic that the team making the most noise about leaving the ACC (FSU) is one of the major problems concerning league perception.

My thoughts exactly- they bear a huge responsibility for what the ACC has become. It will also be another chink in their armor when we beat the snot out of then in a few months

 

[Root4GT]

Agree. It is amazing how far the perception of the ACC dropped from 2003 to present time. I have attached an article by Mark Bradley dated 5-14-03. When Mark wrote this article, the ACC had just added or had a commitment from Miami to join. From the article, it appears VT had not joined at least by the time this article was written. I realize that BC joined one year after Miami and VT.
.
Note the AJC poll shown by Mark which indicated that 68% of the respondents believed that the ACC would be the strongest football conference. This was a poll of 145302 respondents.

I feel like the fall of Miami, FSU, and VT plus the expansion to 14 diluted the product to the point that the ACC looked like one team (Clemson) plus a large number of Mediocre programs.

Also, ironic that the team making the most noise about leaving the ACC (FSU) is one of the major problems concerning league perception. Also, Miami never lived up to being the force that Mark discuses in the article.

Good find! Miami and FSU were the 2 schools that were National Brands equal to any team in the SEC or B1G. Both Miami and FSU fell remarkably hard which really hurt the ACC's football perception as only FSU in 2013 and then Clemson starting in 2015 were noteworthy programs while the SEC started it's dominance. It's hard to get traction when the Flagship programs fall flat on their faces.

 

[stinger78]

All the angst about the ACC is the *perception* of weakness, largely propagated by those who have a stake in SECheat strength. Is the ACC the strongest conference? No. Is it horribly weaker top to bottom than the strongest? No. This is not binary.

The only place the ACC lags far behind is in viewership. Part of that is narrative driven, part of that is fanbase driven. ACC alumni and fans are just not generally frothing at the mouth over footbawl the way SECheat fans are. It just is what it is.

 

[iceeater1969]

Good find! Miami and FSU were the 2 schools that were National Brands equal to any team in the SEC or B1G. Both Miami and FSU fell remarkably hard which really hurt the ACC's football perception as only FSU in 2013 and then Clemson starting in 2015 were noteworthy programs while the SEC started it's dominance. It's hard to get traction when the Flagship programs fall flat on their faces.

Really good point on flag ships.
They did spend money on churnning staff to get better. Clemson built first class facilities and FSU has them underway so they are a full match for p2.

What really hurt the acc was the huge drop off on field of next 5 = gt, unc, ncst, mia, vt in last 9 years. Nothong very very good. Teams like pitt and wake were good a few times,

Unc has spent to get top tier head coach and sraff. They had talent but played soft ( which is why Texas got rid of Mack Brown ). Fsu and miami have churned staff as though they are Auburn, but only fsu is looking super legit. Gt shot for moon w fast talker but saved money by long term no cut contract and had to save$$ riding him into the 100-0 ground. The program was left for dead.

While these 5 seem to have life, they have a narrow road to sucess - only one or 2 can look good since by definition half of will win and half will lose. Best case is fsu and clemson lose way under perform and there is excitement till the acc championship.

Gt has suprised in 23, show chops getting new defensive coaching staff, raise $, and is given a chance to be middle of pack. That wont cut it. We must win 8 ( or 7 with a 2 blow out wins quality ) to change perceptions to " the jackets are back".

FSU is a big game for our players, our school and hopfully our fans. Hard to overstate what a win in ireland would mean to all three.

 

[LT 1967]

I saw an article in the AJC by Ken Sugiura today about the big legal settlement with the NCAA. Ken suggests that we may have a settlement by next week. It is a very interesting article. The thing I saw that seemed most important is that there would be an established salary cap at approximately 21 million per school per year. Also, scholarship limits for each sport would be established at a higher level than the current limits. I actually believe this will be better for schools like GT. At least the Ohio States of the world cannot just spend an unlimited amount.

I apologize for attaching this as 3 separate pages, but the system will not accept the 3 pages together. Read left to Right. If someone would like to link the article, that would be great.

 

[57jacket]

‘Seismic’ changes are coming to college athletics, not entirely for the better

Possibly as early as next week, college athletics could change forever.

www.ajc.com

 

[stinger78]

Really good point on flag ships.
They did spend money on churnning staff to get better. Clemson built first class facilities and FSU has them underway so they are a full match for p2.

What really hurt the acc was the huge drop off on field of next 5 = gt, unc, ncst, mia, vt in last 9 years. Nothong very very good. Teams like pitt and wake were good a few times,

Unc has spent to get top tier head coach and sraff. They had talent but played soft ( which is why Texas got rid of Mack Brown ). Fsu and miami have churned staff as though they are Auburn, but only fsu is looking super legit. Gt shot for moon w fast talker but saved money by long term no cut contract and had to save$$ riding him into the 100-0 ground. The program was left for dead.

While these 5 seem to have life, they have a narrow road to sucess - only one or 2 can look good since by definition half of will win and half will lose. Best case is fsu and clemson lose way under perform and there is excitement till the acc championship.

Gt has suprised in 23, show chops getting new defensive coaching staff, raise $, and is given a chance to be middle of pack. That wont cut it. We must win 8 ( or 7 with a 2 blow out wins quality ) to change perceptions to " the jackets are back".

FSU is a big game for our players, our school and hopfully our fans. Hard to overstate what a win in ireland would mean to all three.

The last 10 years (2014-23) those teams did the following:
Miami: 7-6, 5-7, 7-5, 8-3, 6-7, 7-6, 10-3, 9-4, 8-5, 6-7. Total: 73-53

UNC: 8-5, 9-5, 6-7, 8-4, 7-6, 2-9, 3-9, 8-5, 11-3, 6-7. Total: 68-60

NCSU: 9-4, 8-5, 9-3, 8-4, 4-8, 9-4, 9-4, 7-6, 7-6, 8-5: 78-49.

VPI: 7-6, 3-8, 6-7, 5-6, 8-5, 6-7, 9-4, 10-4, 7-6, 7-6. Total: 68-56.

GT: 7-6, 5-7, 3-9, 3-7, 3-9, 7-6, 5-6, 9-4, 3-9, 11-3. Total: 56-66.

Other than GT, it doesn’t look all that bad.
Miami came to the ACC off of an MNC, and has not repeated that feat, but they’ve largely been pretty good.
VPI came to the ACC after the Mike Vick era, but they held up well throughout the Beamer era. For years the coastal was either VPI or GT. Lately not so much.
UNC has been a slice above mediocre, but that’s them. Always.
NCSU has been pretty doggone good actually.
GT, well, we’re heading the right direction.

Would it be great for one of those to annually pump out 10/11 win seasons? Sure. But Miami is 20 games above .500 the last ten years. VPI is 12 games. UNC is 8 games. NC freakin’ State is 29 games above .500 the last 10 season. GT is 10 below.

As I’ve said often, the ACC ia not the best, but we’re still a good football league, and not too far behind the SECheat top to bottom.

 

[Root4GT]

The last 10 years (2014-23) those teams did the following:
Miami: 7-6, 5-7, 7-5, 8-3, 6-7, 7-6, 10-3, 9-4, 8-5, 6-7. Total: 73-53

UNC: 8-5, 9-5, 6-7, 8-4, 7-6, 2-9, 3-9, 8-5, 11-3, 6-7. Total: 68-60

NCSU: 9-4, 8-5, 9-3, 8-4, 4-8, 9-4, 9-4, 7-6, 7-6, 8-5: 78-49.

VPI: 7-6, 3-8, 6-7, 5-6, 8-5, 6-7, 9-4, 10-4, 7-6, 7-6. Total: 68-56.

GT: 7-6, 5-7, 3-9, 3-7, 3-9, 7-6, 5-6, 9-4, 3-9, 11-3. Total: 56-66.

Other than GT, it doesn’t look all that bad.
Miami came to the ACC off of an MNC, and has not repeated that feat, but they’ve largely been pretty good.
VPI came to the ACC after the Mike Vick era, but they held up well throughout the Beamer era. For years the coastal was either VPI or GT. Lately not so much.
UNC has been a slice above mediocre, but that’s them. Always.
NCSU has been pretty doggone good actually.
GT, well, we’re heading the right direction.

Would it be great for one of those to annually pump out 10/11 win seasons? Sure. But Miami is 20 games above .500 the last ten years. VPI is 12 games. UNC is 8 games. NC freakin’ State is 29 games above .500 the last 10 season. GT is 10 below.

As I’ve said often, the ACC ia not the best, but we’re still a good football league, and not too far behind the SECheat top to bottom.

Curious as to why Clemson and FSU’s 10 year record isn’t included. Clemson has totally dominated the ACC over that time. FSU has shown life the past 2 years but was a mess for much of the 10 years.

NCST has been a very underrated team.

 

[gtbb]

Miami: 7-6, 5-7, 7-5, 8-3, 6-7, 7-6, 10-3, 9-4, 8-5, 6-7. Total: 73-53..................

Other than GT, it doesn’t look all that bad.
Miami came to the ACC off of an MNC, and has not repeated that feat, but they’ve largely been pretty good.

I think Miami has FAAAAAAR under-achieved against what the conference thought we were getting when agreed to join the ACC in early 2003. This record you just listed is only the last 10 years. The 10 years before that were also fair-to-middlin' at best.

If Miami had a history in football like UNC or even Tech, I'd be more forgiving of their record. But they had 5 national championships from 1983 to 2001, and joined the ACC in 2004. Even in years where they didn't win it all, they were often near the top. They were a perennial powerhouse. If not for a botched PI call in 2002, they'd have won that national title, too.

We thought we were getting a top program with Miami. What we've gotten is barely north of Wake Forest.

 

[stinger78]

I think Miami has FAAAAAAR under-achieved against what the conference thought we were getting when agreed to join the ACC in early 2003. This record you just listed is only the last 10 years. The 10 years before that were also fair-to-middlin' at best.

If Miami had a history in football like UNC or even Tech, I'd be more forgiving of their record. But they had 5 national championships from 1983 to 2001, and joined the ACC in 2004. Even in years where they didn't win it all, they were often near the top. They were a perennial powerhouse. If not for a botched PI call in 2002, they'd have won that national title, too.

We thought we were getting a top program with Miami. What we've gotten is barely north of Wake Forest.

I think I typed that they had come off an MNC and hadn’t approached that. However, they have generally been fair to good with an occasional very good. They haven’t typically stunk it up, just not championship level. I totally disagree that they’ve typically been just north of wake Forest. That’s just false.

 

[gtbb]

I think I typed that they had come off an MNC and hadn’t approached that. However, they have generally been fair to good with an occasional very good. They haven’t typically stunk it up, just not championship level. I totally disagree that they’ve typically been just north of wake Forest. That’s just false.

Well, Miami is 73-53 over the last 10 years, as you pointed out. Wake is 63-61 over the same timespan. Miami has been better, but not much better. That's averaging 1 more win per year. And both of them have zero ACC titles during that timespan.

I just think Miami deserves more criticism, because they haven't lived up to their hype. And it's really hurt the conference.

 

[stinger78]

Well, Miami is 73-53 over the last 10 years, as you pointed out. Wake is 63-61 over the same timespan. Miami has been better, but not much better. That's averaging 1 more win per year. And both of them have zero ACC titles during that timespan.

I just think Miami deserves more criticism, because they haven't lived up to their hype. And it's really hurt the conference.

TBH, Wake is closer to VPI and UNC than Miami. Wake has also had a pretty darn good run last 10 years, for them.

I’m not defending Miami. They have certainly not lived up to the expectation of challenging for the division championship they were expected to, after the first 3-4 seasons, anyway. However, they have not generally been the dumpster fire everyone accuses them of either. They have been a slightly above average mid-tier team.

Still, over the years, relative to other P5 conferences, they have done quite poorly. They definitely need to step it up there. They have not helped the ACC in that regard.

 

[yeti92]

The last 10 years (2014-23) those teams did the following:
Miami: 7-6, 5-7, 7-5, 8-3, 6-7, 7-6, 10-3, 9-4, 8-5, 6-7. Total: 73-53

UNC: 8-5, 9-5, 6-7, 8-4, 7-6, 2-9, 3-9, 8-5, 11-3, 6-7. Total: 68-60

NCSU: 9-4, 8-5, 9-3, 8-4, 4-8, 9-4, 9-4, 7-6, 7-6, 8-5: 78-49.

VPI: 7-6, 3-8, 6-7, 5-6, 8-5, 6-7, 9-4, 10-4, 7-6, 7-6. Total: 68-56.

GT: 7-6, 5-7, 3-9, 3-7, 3-9, 7-6, 5-6, 9-4, 3-9, 11-3. Total: 56-66.

Other than GT, it doesn’t look all that bad.

I think when you look at the number of losing seasons in that time period, it's pretty apparent most of these teams have been mediocre. Miami has 3, UNC has 4, VT has 4, and Tech has 6. NC State is the only team that is consistently good, but they can't seem to break through and be great - only 1 losing season, 4 seasons of 9 wins and 3 of 8 wins, but 9 wins is their ceiling and has been for 20+ years.

Unfortunately we are likely to look even worse once the 2014 season drops off, which really shows the damage done to Tech's reputation from 2019-2023 by TFG.

 

[stinger78]

I think when you look at the number of losing seasons in that time period, it's pretty apparent most of these teams have been mediocre. Miami has 3, UNC has 4, VT has 4, and Tech has 6. NC State is the only team that is consistently good, but they can't seem to break through and be great - only 1 losing season, 4 seasons of 9 wins and 3 of 8 wins, but 9 wins is their ceiling and has been for 20+ years.

Unfortunately we are likely to look even worse once the 2014 season drops off, which really shows the damage done to Tech's reputation from 2019-2023 by TFG.

NCSU has been very solid most of the last 10 years. Yet, you never hear a peep about them. GA Tech, VA Tech, and UNC have largely been inconsistent and below average. Miami is the one that gets bagged on, and that truly doesn’t bother me, but they’re second best of that set of teams over that time. They just entered with such ridiculously high expectations that I suppose it’s inevitable.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I think when you look at the number of losing seasons in that time period, it's pretty apparent most of these teams have been mediocre. Miami has 3, UNC has 4, VT has 4, and Tech has 6. NC State is the only team that is consistently good, but they can't seem to break through and be great - only 1 losing season, 4 seasons of 9 wins and 3 of 8 wins, but 9 wins is their ceiling and has been for 20+ years.

Unfortunately we are likely to look even worse once the 2014 season drops off, which really shows the damage done to Tech's reputation from 2019-2023 by TFG.

It always felt like the difference with NC State was that they usually won the games they were supposed to win. Whereas UNC, Miami, and Tech always had these wtf losses.