Conference Realignment

[MWBATL]

We have a fan attendance problem. This year in FB and BB will tell a lot if we are actually making progress in fan attendance for both major sports.

I think just about EVERY college has fan attendance problems.....go to an SEC OOC game against Northwestern Teacher's State College and join the thousands of empty seats (although they are paid for seats).

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

I think just about EVERY college has fan attendance problems.....go to an SEC OOC game against Northwestern Teacher's State College and join the thousands of empty seats (although they are paid for seats).

My first google search on this was Tennessee. In 2023 they played Austin Peay and UTSA. They sold out both games. Over 101,000 people showed up to watch Tennessee beat cupcakes.

As for empty seats, there are few empty seats these days in Neyland Stadium unless they are in line at concessions or restrooms.

 

[stinger78]

The ACC members—and fan bases for that matter—haven’t been aligned. there’s not much you can do when there isn’t common purpose.

The attendance is related to the game day environment. Which causes the other is fair game to argue.

I’d say they are aligned for basketball, which carries the banner for ACC athletics. To me, it’s criminal how the commissioner’s office hasn’t pushed back hard against the creeping narrative that ACC basketball has fallen off. That’s where Phillips ought to be pounding the table, IMPO.

Football, OTOH, is largely driven by sEcSPN. They are so pervasive in football coverage that they drive the narrative. Herbstreit was on CGD for weeks pounding the SEC narrative. Guess what? Either 1) the committee got the message, or 2) he gave them cover to diss F$u. One or the other, or both.

Had he been on there for 2-3 weeks yelling that you absolutely cannot ignore an undefeated P5 champ it would have been much, much harder for the committee to do so.

 

[MWBATL]

My first google search on this was Tennessee. In 2023 they played Austin Peay and UTSA. They sold out both games. Over 101,000 people showed up to watch Tennessee beat cupcakes.

As for empty seats, there are few empty seats these days in Neyland Stadium unless they are in line at concessions or restrooms.

Now, I am curious as to how you know this. Attendance figures announced are ALWAYS tickets sold, NOT actual fannies in the seats. I have been to SEC venues in LSU and Auburn where there are TONS of empty seats if they are playing cupcakes and have heard this is true at UGa as well....

Meanwhile, tjhere is this

College football attendance declines for seventh straight season to lowest average since 1981

Even the best teams and conferences across college football saw attendance drops this season

www.cbssports.com

 

[Vespidae]

Totally disagree. Sankey would have had a major press conference with every ACC AD standing behind him and would have railed against his undefeated conference champ being left out. You know? Because we all knew it was coming and Sankey would have been prepared with his response. What we got from Phillips was a tweet and a white flag.

Sankey, or any competent business leader, would draw eyeballs and thoughts to his product. Instead, where is the current ACC commish? The preseason polls will be released within a few months and our commish has disappeared with our narrative. Meanwhile, Sankey is ensuring he has A large volume of teams ranked in the 2nd most important poll of the season - the preseason poll which sets the narrative.

Warren Buffett: "When a great leader meets a poor business, it's the reputation of the business that remains intact."

The ACC has had poor economics for decades.

 

[yeti92]

Warren Buffett: "When a great leader meets a poor business, it's the reputation of the business that remains intact."

The ACC has had poor economics for decades.

If the implication is that a business can't improve from a previously bad reputation, that's simply not true. Is it hard to do, absolutely. Is it quick, not usually. Is it likely, maybe not. Can it be done, 100%.

Just off the top of my head, Taurus firearms is a perfect example. Taurus was synonymous with unreliable cheap garbage for a very long time. In the last few years however, their reputation has improved substantially, and they have released several models that are quite popular and get very good reviews.

 

[gte447f]

If the implication is that a business can't improve from a previously bad reputation, that's simply not true. Is it hard to do, absolutely. Is it quick, not usually. Is it likely, maybe not. Can it be done, 100%.

Just off the top of my head, Taurus firearms is a perfect example. Taurus was synonymous with unreliable cheap garbage for a very long time. In the last few years however, their reputation has improved substantially, and they have released several models that are quite popular and get very good reviews.

Also, Hyundai automobiles… too soon… ?… I kid

 

[Vespidae]

If the implication is that a business can't improve from a previously bad reputation, that's simply not true. Is it hard to do, absolutely. Is it quick, not usually. Is it likely, maybe not. Can it be done, 100%.

Just off the top of my head, Taurus firearms is a perfect example. Taurus was synonymous with unreliable cheap garbage for a very long time. In the last few years however, their reputation has improved substantially, and they have released several models that are quite popular and get very good reviews.

"In 2020, 41% of all the revolvers sold in the US were Taurus brand revolvers and, in 2021, it is estimated that this market share has reached 61%. "

Is it your premise that the ACC can achieve 61% of the CFB market? Good luck.

 

[orientalnc]

"In 2020, 41% of all the revolvers sold in the US were Taurus brand revolvers and, in 2021, it is estimated that this market share has reached 61%. "

Is it your premise that the ACC can achieve 61% of the CFB market? Good luck.

You can still buy a new revolver??? I guess Russian Roulette is not dead after all.

 

[yeti92]

"In 2020, 41% of all the revolvers sold in the US were Taurus brand revolvers and, in 2021, it is estimated that this market share has reached 61%. "

Is it your premise that the ACC can achieve 61% of the CFB market? Good luck.

View attachment 16134

Nowhere did I say that, but good try with that strawman.

 

[Vespidae]

Nowhere did I say that, but good try with that strawman.

No, you put out a hypothetical that "it could happen". Sure, it could. Is it likely? No. In fact, I put the odds of it happening at zero.

But I have no idea what your position is. You say it's possible but then immediately walked it back. So, what's the point? Do you think the ACC is going to dramatically improve it's competitive position or not?

 

[orientalnc]

I need to think about what this means (if anything), but the SEC campuses are mostly located in small cities. Of the 210 TV markets in the US, the SEC schools are located in #6 (Atlanta), #27 (Nashville), #45 (Bham, Anniston, Tuscaloosa), #61 (Knoxville), #63 (Lexington), #76 (Columbia), #82 (Waco/Bryan/College STation), #95 (Baton Rouge), #96 (Jackson), #97 (Ft Smith/Fayetteville), #126 (Columbus/Opelika/Auburn), #134 (Columbus/Tupelo/Starkville), #137 Columbia/Jefferson City), #159 (Gainesville). In 2024 they add #35 (Austin) and #46 (Oklahoma City/Norman).

The ACC campuses are in bigger cities. #6 (Atlanta), #9 (Boston), #18 (Miami Ft Lauderdale), #23 (Raleigh/Durham), #26 Pittsburgh), #37 (Greenville/Spartanburg), #47 (Greensboro/HP/Winston-Salem), #48 (Louisville), #56 (Richmond), #71 (Roanoke/Lynchburg), #85 (Syracuse), #98 (South Bend), #105 (Tallahassee). In 2024 they will add #5 (Dallas/Ft worth) and #10 (San Francisco).

 

[Vespidae]

I need to think about what this means (if anything), but the SEC campuses are mostly located in small cities. Of the 210 TV markets in the US, the SEC schools are located in #6 (Atlanta), #27 (Nashville), #45 (Bham, Anniston, Tuscaloosa), #61 (Knoxville), #63 (Lexington), #76 (Columbia), #82 (Waco/Bryan/College STation), #95 (Baton Rouge), #96 (Jackson), #97 (Ft Smith/Fayetteville), #126 (Columbus/Opelika/Auburn), #134 (Columbus/Tupelo/Starkville), #137 Columbia/Jefferson City), #159 (Gainesville). In 2024 they add #35 (Austin) and #46 (Oklahoma City/Norman).

The ACC campuses are in bigger cities. #6 (Atlanta), #9 (Boston), #18 (Miami Ft Lauderdale), #23 (Raleigh/Durham), #26 Pittsburgh), #37 (Greenville/Spartanburg), #47 (Greensboro/HP/Winston-Salem), #48 (Louisville), #56 (Richmond), #71 (Roanoke/Lynchburg), #85 (Syracuse), #98 (South Bend), #105 (Tallahassee). In 2024 they will add #5 (Dallas/Ft worth) and #10 (San Francisco).

There is an inverse relationship between attendance (and fanbase size) and urban schools. The more urban, the smaller the fanbase. That's NCAA statistics.

 

[orientalnc]

There is an inverse relationship between attendance (and fanbase size) and urban schools. The more urban, the smaller the fanbase. That's NCAA statistics.

When I look at these rankings I think the ESPN contract is safe.

 

[Vespidae]

I’d say they are aligned for basketball, which carries the banner for ACC athletics. To me, it’s criminal how the commissioner’s office hasn’t pushed back hard against the creeping narrative that ACC basketball has fallen off. That’s where Phillips ought to be pounding the table, IMPO.

Football, OTOH, is largely driven by sEcSPN. They are so pervasive in football coverage that they drive the narrative. Herbstreit was on CGD for weeks pounding the SEC narrative. Guess what? Either 1) the committee got the message, or 2) he gave them cover to diss F$u. One or the other, or both.

Had he been on there for 2-3 weeks yelling that you absolutely cannot ignore an undefeated P5 champ it would have been much, much harder for the committee to do so.

There's two different dynamics at work.

Basketball took root in the Carolinas much like football did in the rest of the South. For decades, the ACC developed basketball and Bama, LSU, etc developed football. The problem is that football benefits from scale and barriers to entry whereas the barriers to entry to create a competitive basketball program are not that high. I recall figures that it takes $75M or so to build a competitive (not just a team, but a competitive one) football team but only $5-8 million to do so for a basketball program. Of course, things are getting more expensive but the reality is that the ACC is facing far more competitors in basketball than major football programs.

The other issue is the nature of the ACC itself. Back in the 1970's, it was a dominant basketball program. But at the same time, integration came into play as did the expansion of women's sports. Result? The rise of the professionally trained AD (instead of the old Coach-AD model ... e.g., Dodd in in his final days.) As this happened, the ACC RAISED its academic requirements and choked recruiting in cross-over geographies with the SEC. The result was a collapse in recruiting and the exit of South Carolina from the Conference.

The ACC still maintains a view towards academic superiority, even if unstated (although didn't Tech just tweet something along these lines recently?) The SEC (and B1G) have been building fanbases in a consolidating market and the ACC has been doing the opposite ... losing support as the market expanded.

I recall a meme from my Thermodyamics days ... "in the absence of all else, the world tends towards disorder". The ACC is a good example of that.

I think the ACC has issues but in a lot of ways, it's a good example of creative destruction.

 

[augustabuzz]

I need to think about what this means (if anything), but the SEC campuses are mostly located in small cities. Of the 210 TV markets in the US, the SEC schools are located in #6 (Atlanta), #27 (Nashville), #45 (Bham, Anniston, Tuscaloosa), #61 (Knoxville), #63 (Lexington), #76 (Columbia), #82 (Waco/Bryan/College STation), #95 (Baton Rouge), #96 (Jackson), #97 (Ft Smith/Fayetteville), #126 (Columbus/Opelika/Auburn), #134 (Columbus/Tupelo/Starkville), #137 Columbia/Jefferson City), #159 (Gainesville). In 2024 they add #35 (Austin) and #46 (Oklahoma City/Norman).

The ACC campuses are in bigger cities. #6 (Atlanta), #9 (Boston), #18 (Miami Ft Lauderdale), #23 (Raleigh/Durham), #26 Pittsburgh), #37 (Greenville/Spartanburg), #47 (Greensboro/HP/Winston-Salem), #48 (Louisville), #56 (Richmond), #71 (Roanoke/Lynchburg), #85 (Syracuse), #98 (South Bend), #105 (Tallahassee). In 2024 they will add #5 (Dallas/Ft worth) and #10 (San Francisco).

Which SEC school is located in the Atlanta market?

 

[orientalnc]

Which SEC school is located in the Atlanta market?

My granddaughter lives in Athens. She said they are in the Atlanta dma, but I didn't check.

 

[yeti92]

No, you put out a hypothetical that "it could happen". Sure, it could. Is it likely? No. In fact, I put the odds of it happening at zero.

But I have no idea what your position is. You say it's possible but then immediately walked it back. So, what's the point? Do you think the ACC is going to dramatically improve it's competitive position or not?

If it could happen, the odds of it happening can't be zero. Those two statements are in direct conflict.

I said it's possible for a business to improve its image and that your quote from WB doesn't hold up, and I gave an example proving it. I did not say that the ACC would become the dominant conference or take 61% of the market share, that's a strawman you built. That's not walking back anything, and you know it.

The ACC could improve its reputation and better position itself as part of a Power 3 or atleast significantly above the Big12 and closer to the SEC and Big 10 , though it's probably not likely without significant change from the status quo we have seen from the head office.

 

[Ramblnwrek]

In the same vein, though specifically toward Tech. I would say Tech Students/Alumni have trended away from football fans. Losing seasons has had an affect on that. Tech has been attracting the best/smarter academic student over the years. Evidence by the higher average SAT score. The average Tech student is more of a 'nerd.' Nerds tend to not be football fans. Sure, you can say the NFL has a wide fan base, but college needs it's fans to spend on the specific sports. Bottom line, this is a wholistic problem, If Tech wants more money, it needs Football fans. And (outside of winning) they need football student fans, who start to love the team. They need to recruit current students to games and recruit future students to be fans.

Sucks being on the other side of the fence, but that is where we are at. Especially if we are comparing ourselves to SEC and B1G.

 

[Vespidae]

If it could happen, the odds of it happening can't be zero. Those two statements are in direct conflict.

I said it's possible for a business to improve its image and that your quote from WB doesn't hold up, and I gave an example proving it. I did not say that the ACC would become the dominant conference or take 61% of the market share, that's a strawman you built. That's not walking back anything, and you know it.

The ACC could improve its reputation and better position itself as part of a Power 3 or atleast significantly above the Big12 and closer to the SEC and Big 10 , though it's probably not likely without significant change from the status quo we have seen from the head office.

I did turnarounds for a living. While you can greatly improve prospects and profitability, it’s rare to become the market leader in a mature industry. So I disagree with you, plain and simple.

As to Taurus, you introduced the example. Not me.