Conference Realignment

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,876
Location
Oriental, NC
I'd love to see a proforma built comparing the current ACC deal as is, versus raiding the ACC of the best schools and promoting better weekly matchups in the SEC and BIG12 ESPN products. I bet Nick Dawson over at ESPN has already made up his mind, and I'd bet their proforma shows more marquee matchups = more $$$ than leaving the ACC as is. I mean no disrespect to those who think the ACC network will live on until 2036, but you have to understand these people in entertainment are cut throat. If ESPN is really in talks with Fox and Warner Brothers for a collective sports only streaming package, I would bet they've already discussed which properties go to which networks.

Here's where I have a wild thought. What about Warner Brothers?

Fox and ESPN currently have the chokehold on college sports broadcasting with CBS (excluding CBS Sports network) and NBC taking typically one primetime game. There's this rumored sports streaming package with Fox/ESPN/Time Warner for sports only. Could any of the Warner Brothers/Turner Networks play a role? I know Amazon, Apple, etc. etc. can bid as well, but could TruTV, that's now being repositioned for sports, acquire television rights for any college sports properties? I think it will, and I think it's no coincidence this reported joint streaming package is part of the reason why. I believe TruTV will sublease directly from FOX/ESPN in the short term, and I would bet dimes to donuts the revenue from TruTV for subleasing, is accounted for in ESPN's proforma for killing the current ACC deal.
Too many have decided the ESPN option is to continue the broadcast contract with the ACC. I contend the ACC would not have signed that contract extension unless it was actually an extension. It is my opinion that the option is only for the ACC Network. Whether that works for ESPN or not will be the determinant for exercising the option. I believe the ACC and ESPN agreement to move the exercise date to 2025 is a sign that both parties understand the realities and have generally agreed.

The question that no one outside of ESPN can answer is which ACC events would no longer be covered. Would the coverage still be there, but move to ESPN3 or ESPN+ instead of ACCN? My guess is that fan access to football and basketball games on the ACCN might be more difficult in the future except for games with higher expected audience ratings.
 

stinger 1957

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,466
It's the demise of ACC I'm convinced, fast (Pac 12) or slow and painful. I want to get it over and move on, don't like pain myself. Just don't see ACC being able to compete with the big boys the way it's going. If I were a really good player I would rather play in SEC or Big 10 over ACC, but maybe some are right and they choose ACC over playing in the big 2 or even the third ( Big 12 )
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,989
It's the demise of ACC I'm convinced, fast (Pac 12) or slow and painful. I want to get it over and move on, don't like pain myself. Just don't see ACC being able to compete with the big boys the way it's going. If I were a really good player I would rather play in SEC or Big 10 over ACC, but maybe some are right and they choose ACC over playing in the big 2 or even the third ( Big 12 )
Why do you think the Big12 is third? They don't have better teams. They don't make more money? By what measure are they better than the ACC?
 

UgaBlows

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,803
Why would ESPN agree to give up media rights of teams they already own at a very favorable rate, and allow them to go to a competitor?
Just my theory obviously but I think ESPN will prioritize getting the teams they and the SEC want to keep, and they (potentially) will make more money (ratings, subscriptions) having those teams playing an SEC schedule combined with moving or renegotiating the ACC castoffs to a lower contract conference.
 

UgaBlows

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,803
Why do you think the Big12 is third? They don't have better teams. They don't make more money? By what measure are they better than the ACC?
They have zero blue-chip teams, they are just a conference of misfits and castoff’s at this point
 

Dman374

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
56
Why do you think the Big12 is third? They don't have better teams. They don't make more money? By what measure are they better than the ACC?
IMO, at the top I don't believe the BIG 12 has a legitimate title contender. With that out of the way, they have a very solid middle. I'm going to use fandual for this comparison chart, but feel free to use whatever sportsbook you wish, I'm just using this to visualize.
ACCBIG 12
Clemson +280Utah +340
FL. State +280Kansas State +360
Miami +450Kansas +650
Louisville +500Arizona +750
NC State +1300Texas Tech +850
SMU +1700UCF +1100
Virginia Tech +1800Iowa State +1200
North Carolina +2500Oklahoma State +1600
Syracuse +4200 / Cal +5500 / Georgia Tech is +6000TCU +1600 / West Virginia +1900 / Colorado +4000

If Cam Rising is healthy and looks as good as he did prior to injury, that's a great game. As of today Utah wouldn't be favored against Clemson or Florida State, but it would be a great game to watch, and I would really love to odds against Miami. Depending on that spread (if Cam Rising is back 100%) I'm taking Utah to win against Miami. I agree with the tiers fandual has for ACC champion, with Miami and Louisville on their own tier. I think Utah is below Clemson/FL State tier, but above Miami/Louisville tier. Where things get interesting in the BIG 12 is below Utah. IMO Kansas State and Kansas are in that Louisville Miami Tier, but that gap between Arizona and Oklahoma State is super tight. They've got a much tighter middle gap than the current ACC, and that's where it get's interesting. If you're going to compare conferences you need to stack them 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, etc. etc. Might do it for the ACC vs SEC and BIG10 just for S&G to add to this 380+ page thread. For the record, as of March 13th, 2024 the ACC is stronger than the BIG 12. This visual should help explain why, but ask yourself if Florida State left and you restack top to bottom, they're a lot closer than a lot of people on here would like to admit. It's only going to take one or two of those BIG 12 schools to acquire talent at a national title level to change their narrative.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,989
IMO, at the top I don't believe the BIG 12 has a legitimate title contender. With that out of the way, they have a very solid middle. I'm going to use fandual for this comparison chart, but feel free to use whatever sportsbook you wish, I'm just using this to visualize.
ACCBIG 12
Clemson +280Utah +340
FL. State +280Kansas State +360
Miami +450Kansas +650
Louisville +500Arizona +750
NC State +1300Texas Tech +850
SMU +1700UCF +1100
Virginia Tech +1800Iowa State +1200
North Carolina +2500Oklahoma State +1600
Syracuse +4200 / Cal +5500 / Georgia Tech is +6000TCU +1600 / West Virginia +1900 / Colorado +4000

If Cam Rising is healthy and looks as good as he did prior to injury, that's a great game. As of today Utah wouldn't be favored against Clemson or Florida State, but it would be a great game to watch, and I would really love to odds against Miami. Depending on that spread (if Cam Rising is back 100%) I'm taking Utah to win against Miami. I agree with the tiers fandual has for ACC champion, with Miami and Louisville on their own tier. I think Utah is below Clemson/FL State tier, but above Miami/Louisville tier. Where things get interesting in the BIG 12 is below Utah. IMO Kansas State and Kansas are in that Louisville Miami Tier, but that gap between Arizona and Oklahoma State is super tight. They've got a much tighter middle gap than the current ACC, and that's where it get's interesting. If you're going to compare conferences you need to stack them 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, etc. etc. Might do it for the ACC vs SEC and BIG10 just for S&G to add to this 380+ page thread. For the record, as of March 13th, 2024 the ACC is stronger than the BIG 12. This visual should help explain why, but ask yourself if Florida State left and you restack top to bottom, they're a lot closer than a lot of people on here would like to admit. It's only going to take one or two of those BIG 12 schools to acquire talent at a national title level to change their narrative.
My response was to someone who claimed that the Big12 is already the number 3 conference. They are not by any measure that I have seen including your chart. From a football perspective, the ACC is comfortably in third. From a money perspective, the ACC is in third. People are far to eager to ignore reality and claim that the Big12 is a stronger conference than the ACC.

Ifs and buts don't really matter. What if I changed your one or two Big 12 schools acquiring talent to: Clemson remaining strong, FSU regaining their 90s era strength, Miami returning to eh 80s-90s Miami teams, UNC actually finishing seasons, VT returning to the 90s-2000s VT teams, and GT actually putting pieces together. IF all that happened then from a football perspective, the ACC would be at least on par with the SEC and Big10 if not ahead of them.
 

Dman374

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
56
My response was to someone who claimed that the Big12 is already the number 3 conference. They are not by any measure that I have seen including your chart. From a football perspective, the ACC is comfortably in third. From a money perspective, the ACC is in third. People are far to eager to ignore reality and claim that the Big12 is a stronger conference than the ACC.

Ifs and buts don't really matter. What if I changed your one or two Big 12 schools acquiring talent to: Clemson remaining strong, FSU regaining their 90s era strength, Miami returning to eh 80s-90s Miami teams, UNC actually finishing seasons, VT returning to the 90s-2000s VT teams, and GT actually putting pieces together. IF all that happened then from a football perspective, the ACC would be at least on par with the SEC and Big10 if not ahead of them.
I agree... IF the ACC got their $h!t together they would be on par with the SEC/BIG 10. Problem is other than Clemson they haven't. The irony is if Nick at ESPN blows up the ACC, I bet it's last year will be as glorious as the last year of the PAC 12. With legit teams that actually looked like they finally got it all together when it was too late.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,989
I agree... IF the ACC got their $h!t together they would be on par with the SEC/BIG 10. Problem is other than Clemson they haven't. The irony is if Nick at ESPN blows up the ACC, I bet it's last year will be as glorious as the last year of the PAC 12. With legit teams that actually looked like they finally got it all together when it was too late.
That is another thing that bothers me about the entire ACC discussion. FSU has claimed that ESPN has an option to back out of the entire ESPN/ACC contract. Nobody else has verified any part of that claim. Yet, in the discussion by many it is simply assumed that ESPN can simply pull the plug on the ACC. The same as people assume that the Big 12 is better than the ACC even though they can't point to any measurement to enforce that assumption.
 

cpf2001

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,225
That is another thing that bothers me about the entire ACC discussion. FSU has claimed that ESPN has an option to back out of the entire ESPN/ACC contract. Nobody else has verified any part of that claim. Yet, in the discussion by many it is simply assumed that ESPN can simply pull the plug on the ACC. The same as people assume that the Big 12 is better than the ACC even though they can't point to any measurement to enforce that assumption.
I've been growing more suspicious as we go longer and longer without the ACC refuting the claim.

The ACC is generally losing the PR battles around this, if they have an easy win like that to refute a falsehood, why not take it? Becuase the ESPN agreement is under NDA or somesuch? Why would it be that hard to get ESPN to let them share some news; ESPN could even turn it into more clicks and articles.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,876
Location
Oriental, NC
I've been growing more suspicious as we go longer and longer without the ACC refuting the claim.

The ACC is generally losing the PR battles around this, if they have an easy win like that to refute a falsehood, why not take it? Becuase the ESPN agreement is under NDA or somesuch? Why would it be that hard to get ESPN to let them share some news; ESPN could even turn it into more clicks and articles.
Why would the ACC refute the claim they are suing FSU for making? There's no PR battle going on about the option except in fan forums.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,989
I've been growing more suspicious as we go longer and longer without the ACC refuting the claim.

The ACC is generally losing the PR battles around this, if they have an easy win like that to refute a falsehood, why not take it? Becuase the ESPN agreement is under NDA or somesuch? Why would it be that hard to get ESPN to let them share some news; ESPN could even turn it into more clicks and articles.
I am not saying that there is not some kind of option. I am not even saying that there definitively is no option to cancel the entire contract. What I am saying is that we in the public have no idea if there is or is not.

Yes, the ACC and ESPN will ignore the public sentiments because the agreement is under an NDA. Is the public sentiment hurting ESPN? If not, then why would they want their "trade secrets" to be public? If they believe that such information being public hurts their business interest, then they will not publicly say what is right or wrong about claims that FSU has made. If might be hurting the ACC in the PR arena, but the ACC is held to an NDA. If the ACC violates the NDA, then ESPN can sue the ACC.

From a business perspective, the only thing that ESPN should do is fight to keep information confidential and threaten people who might be violating that confidence. They filed a brief in Florida to keep information under seal, and they stated in that brief that individuals from FSU may have committed felonies. That sounds exactly like fighting to keep the information confidential, and threatening people.
 

cpf2001

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,225
Yeah, we don't know, but the ACC should not be ignoring public sentiment.

Ignoring public sentiment and being a disaster at PR is how the ACC got into this mess in the first place with public sentiment being so bad that one of its member schools convinced itself to sue the league.

ESPN doesn't have the same motivations, but if the ACC was competent at politics they'd have a good enough working relationship to get a favor from the network to disclose the tiniest sliver of information by being able to say "no, FSU is wrong" without worrying about ESPN getting pissed off at them.

So either the option exists as described by FSU or the ACC is still hilariously bad at being a functional organization that helps the public perception of itself and its member schools.
Bad news either way.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,876
Location
Oriental, NC
Yeah, we don't know, but the ACC should not be ignoring public sentiment.

Ignoring public sentiment and being a disaster at PR is how the ACC got into this mess in the first place with public sentiment being so bad that one of its member schools convinced itself to sue the league.

ESPN doesn't have the same motivations, but if the ACC was competent at politics they'd have a good enough working relationship to get a favor from the network to disclose the tiniest sliver of information by being able to say "no, FSU is wrong" without worrying about ESPN getting pissed off at them.

So either the option exists as described by FSU or the ACC is still hilariously bad at being a functional organization that helps the public perception of itself and its member schools.
Bad news either way.
What the ACC said in its lawsuit in NC is that FSU violated their agreement with the ACC to not reveal the contents of the ESPN media deal. The ACC and ESPN have a NDA as part of the deal and FSU had to agree to that NDA in order to see the details of the agreement. The ACC is not now going to do the very thing they are suing FSU for doing.
 

cpf2001

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,225
What the ACC said in its lawsuit in NC is that FSU violated their agreement with the ACC to not reveal the contents of the ESPN media deal. The ACC and ESPN have a NDA as part of the deal and FSU had to agree to that NDA in order to see the details of the agreement. The ACC is not now going to do the very thing they are suing FSU for doing.

There would be a big obvious difference between “disclosing proprietary information without warning in an adversarial lawsuit” and “disclosing proprietary information after checking in with the other party as part of damage control.”

My contention is that the ACC appears too incompetent to either recognize that they need to do damage control (why start now, they haven’t for decades!!) or to get even a small favor like that from ESPN.

Orrrrr they can’t do damage control because FSU leaked true proprietary information.

I think anyone who at this point is willing to give the FSU claims a significant amount of credence has good reason to do so.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,989
I think anyone who at this point is willing to give the FSU claims a significant amount of credence has good reason to do so.
Which of their claims should we give credence to? Should we believe that the exit fee and the lost value for the GOR are all clumped together in a "withdrawal fee"? Should we believe that the ESPN contract includes a chart with the words "Nothing unless ESPN in February 2025 exercises the Unilateral ESPN Nine-Year Option" on it? Should we believe that not getting the same financial results as other conferences is a breach of fiduciary duty? (If so, why can't Samsung shareholders sue the company for not having the same profit level as Apple?) Should we believe that the GOR is "draconian", even though the FSU Board of Trustees said in the past that it was the best thing for the conference and for FSU?

Fan boards were going to roast the ACC NO MATTER WHAT. The ACC has a very strong legal case. Nobody who isn't hard level into sports even cares about this. Even people who are interested in sports aren't discussing it much. The Main Board at Rivals isn't even discussing FSU, nor the ACC lawsuit currently. They are more interested in a warning in Georgia about snakes in yards. My point is that no matter what the ACC did, fan boards were going to crush them because that is the current popular thing to do. The ACC is not going to break an NDA with ESPN to appease a teenager tweeting from his parent's basement. Even if they did, that teenager would still trash them. No matter what we say or do on GTSwarm, it isn't going to change anything with respect to ESPN, the ACC, nor FSU. No matter how badly your SEC friends make fun of you, it isn't going to affect anything in the real world. The ACC is much better off sticking to their guns on the legal case, and not dropping to the FSU level of SEC fans in the bar arguments.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,876
Location
Oriental, NC
I think anyone who at this point is willing to give the FSU claims a significant amount of credence has good reason to do so.
The only PR that is going to matter is whether this case moves forward in NC. If that happens the FL courts will almost certainly wait to see what happens in NC. According to FL law the case filed first has priority. If the NC court decides the SOL has passed this could be a very short trial unless the ACC or ESPN wants to press criminal charges against FSU or the board members who disclosed confidential information.
 

RamblinRed

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
5,850
Article on the coming legal battles for the NCAA and the Power 5 Conferences and how it could affect the future of FBS.


The NCAA and the Power Five conferences find themselves as defendants in four high-profile antitrust lawsuits. Settlements in those cases have become the next hurdle toward whatever college sports will look like in the future.

"You may bankrupt some universities," another Power Five AD said.

The hope? Somehow, all the four cases are bundled and settled at once. For the moment, they pose the biggest immediate financial threat to the existing system. In antitrust cases, damages are trebled. That suggests the NCAA and Power Five probably cannot risk jury trials in any of the cases.

Even if settled, the cases may cost eight figures per school. The NCAA would no doubt cover some of the settlement, but since the Power Five conferences are also defendants, schools are almost certainly going to shoulder some of the burden.

"If there is a settlement in that [House] case," said a third Power Five AD. "That's going to define the new subdivision."

"A settlement for House and all the others, it could almost be like what a collective bargaining agreement would sort of look like,"

The settlements would most likely be optional for schools that want to contribute -- "permissive" is the industry buzz word. Will there be some that don't (or financially can't), risking their membership at the highest level of college athletics?

In this case, the knife that cleaves the FBS into further subdivisions would occur more organically. Schools would have to answer one basic question when the settlement money comes due: What can we afford?

Some discussions have centered around schools opting into the settlement at a capped rate, perhaps 20% of a program's total athletic budget, sources tell CBS Sports.


So, who wants to be in the exclusive club that emerges from the courts?

The Big Ten and SEC have already separated themselves -- financially, if not formally.

Current negotiations reflect the combined swagger of the Big Ten and SEC, which are seeking a combined 58% of annual CFP revenue as part of a new media rights deal beginning 2026,

"There's never been more uncertainty about how universities need to budget their expenditures in the next decade," said Patrick Rishe, director of the sports business program at Washington University in St. Louis. "That being said, it's hard for me to feel empathy for the top 50, 60 financially endowed universities because look at what they're spending on facilities, look at what they're spending on coach salaries."

If the Big Ten/SEC are demanding a majority of the revenue, shouldn't they take on a larger share of the legal liability?
"Are you going to split 60% of the revenue?" one Power Five AD asked rhetorically. "Then you have to pay [a majority of] the damages."
 

cpf2001

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,225
Which of their claims should we give credence to? Should we believe that the exit fee and the lost value for the GOR are all clumped together in a "withdrawal fee"? Should we believe that the ESPN contract includes a chart with the words "Nothing unless ESPN in February 2025 exercises the Unilateral ESPN Nine-Year Option" on it? Should we believe that not getting the same financial results as other conferences is a breach of fiduciary duty? (If so, why can't Samsung shareholders sue the company for not having the same profit level as Apple?) Should we believe that the GOR is "draconian", even though the FSU Board of Trustees said in the past that it was the best thing for the conference and for FSU?
Some of these are refutable from independent evidence and/or interpretation of terms like "fiduciary duty." Is it not exceedingly obvious that I'm talking specifically the termination option claims? Why are you asking me to defend FSU's case as a whole?

Fan boards were going to roast the ACC NO MATTER WHAT.
And why is that? Is it because the ACC has been inept at all things PR for decades?

"PR doesn't matter because the ACC's PR has already been terrible"?

I'm not disputing the strength of the ACC legal case. I don't care about it that much. I just think your claims that nobody should be suspicious about the termination stuff are hollow. Especially since the ACC is in this position in the first place because of a death by a thousand cuts and you and the ACC seem to believe that a 1001th cut is therefore irrelevant, instead of them needing to take the first step to turn that tide sooner or later.

The ACC is much better off sticking to their guns on the legal case, and not dropping to the FSU level of SEC fans in the bar arguments.
Why would you present this as an either/or?

How is it even accurate? Releasing a statement to the press along with your legal counter-actions with plain-and-simple "the requests are unjustified, the claims are untrue, and we will do whatever it takes to prove it" English isn't "fans in the bar" level, it's closer to basic corporate ***-covering 101.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,216
That is another thing that bothers me about the entire ACC discussion. FSU has claimed that ESPN has an option to back out of the entire ESPN/ACC contract. Nobody else has verified any part of that claim. Yet, in the discussion by many it is simply assumed that ESPN can simply pull the plug on the ACC. The same as people assume that the Big 12 is better than the ACC even though they can't point to any measurement to enforce that assumption.

I get what you're saying, but given that the goal was for FSU to litigate their way out of the ACC, and the ESPN "opt out" clause is one of their central arguments that the ACC decision makers entered into an agreement that wasn't in the best interest of all ACC members, the "I stayed at a Holiday Inn" lawyer in me sees no benefit to FSU to make this detail up. The unilateral opt out clause, along with other contract details, will ultimately be exposed in court litigation. In fact, the unilateral option is listed in their lawsuit so it's not just PR bravado thrown out by FSU lawyers to win the PR war. Doesn't do FSU any good to lie to the media and in court filings.

Per the filed complaint:



33. The following spring, the ACC and ESPN renegotiated the key terms of the existing
agreement producing the May 9, 2012, ACC-ESPN Amendment (the “2012 ACC-ESPN
Amendment”), which provided for a lengthy 15-year term, expiring June 30, 2027.^2

^2

It is a widely repeated misconception that the ACC’s multi-media rights agreement expires in 2036. As explained
below, in truth, the multi-media rights agreement expires in 2027 unless ESPN chooses to exercise its unilateral option
through 2036, a decision ESPN has no duty to make until February 2025, thanks to other additional conference
mismanagement detailed below.



I don't think the courts will look kindly upon FSU for making up a rather important argument in their case against the ACC. The clause itself is also specifically notated
“2012 ACC-ESPN Amendment” for reference. The reason why it's not floating around is because the ACC and ESPN have famously kept it under lock and key.
 
Last edited:
Top