Conference Realignment

forensicbuzz

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CFB branding is local and national. The total brand is the sum of the two. There is no way I’d believe that Oregon’s local brand recognition on the west coast excess F$U’s local brand recognition in the southeast and on the east coast. However, outside those areas, nationally, Oregon has had more success lately and may well enjoy the edge.
Living in the midwest, I'd say that FSU has a much bigger brand than Oregon. Oregon's issue is their games are generally later, whereas most CST people also operate on or adjacent to EST. Just my observations. Oregon doing well has helped; Phil Knight and being the team of many uniforms has helped Oregon's brand. But, FSU being a POS for years has helped too. I'd say FSU's ceiling is higher than Oregon's, regardless of where the perception of the two brands are today.
 

orientalnc

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Living in the midwest, I'd say that FSU has a much bigger brand than Oregon. Oregon's issue is their games are generally later, whereas most CST people also operate on or adjacent to EST. Just my observations. Oregon doing well has helped; Phil Knight and being the team of many uniforms has helped Oregon's brand. But, FSU being a POS for years has helped too. I'd say FSU's ceiling is higher than Oregon's, regardless of where the perception of the two brands are today.
This is probably correct.
 

WreckinGT

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Are you insinuating that Tomahawknation is a fair and unbiased source of information?

Also, I don't see any details of FSU's "value". I see ratings and claims that FSU is an important part of the ACC media package. I don't see anything that assigns a dollar "value" to it.

Also, the article quotes an earlier article that:

Despite a scathing fan-baiting article decrying how great FSU is and how foul the ACC is, they quote and link to an article in which Tomoahawknation blamed FSU mismanagement for the issues at FSU. It is good that Tomahawknation is not writing legal briefs for FSU, because they just admitted that FSU explicitly agreed with the GOR. In a lawsuit to get out of a contract, it would be extremely difficult to get out of a filing in which you admit yourself that your predecessor agreed with the contract and signed it of free will.
I thought the article did a decent job of showing FSU's side of the argument with their recent amendment and I thought their break down of TV viewership for FSU vs other ACC teams was pretty interesting. FSU being in 12 of the 17 ACC games that got over 5 million viewers since 2012 was pretty interesting to me. If anything showing FSU's point of view or coming from an FSU related source bothers you then feel free to not read the article. I thought we already established that you don't trust anything on the internet anyways so im not sure why you even bothered with this.
 

stinger78

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Living in the midwest, I'd say that FSU has a much bigger brand than Oregon. Oregon's issue is their games are generally later, whereas most CST people also operate on or adjacent to EST. Just my observations. Oregon doing well has helped; Phil Knight and being the team of many uniforms has helped Oregon's brand. But, FSU being a POS for years has helped too. I'd say FSU's ceiling is higher than Oregon's, regardless of where the perception of the two brands are today.
I don’t doubt at all that Oregon is a bigger name nationally at present. My question is, understanding that large areas beyond the MS River are not prime football territory. So, it boils down to SE, MW, and east coast where F$U should be at/above Oregon vs. west coast where Oregon will be higher. I can assure all that I do not know.
 

RonJohn

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I thought the article did a decent job of showing FSU's side of the argument with their recent amendment and I thought their break down of TV viewership for FSU vs other ACC teams was pretty interesting. FSU being in 12 of the 17 ACC games that got over 5 million viewers since 2012 was pretty interesting to me. If anything showing FSU's point of view or coming from an FSU related source bothers you then feel free to not read the article. I thought we already established that you don't trust anything on the internet anyways so im not sure why you even bothered with this.
I did read the article. I wanted to point out just how biased it is. I also wanted to point out that even with the bias, they ADMITTED that FSU willingly signed up for the GOR. They are posting and thinking like fanboys, not like lawyers. They want to trash the previous FSU athletics administration, but fail to realize that in doing so they are making arguments counter to the quasi-legal arguments that FSU's lawyers are attempting to make in court. I am not a lawyer, but I can recognize when someone believes that they can win an argument by screaming more loudly instead of making logical and on-point claims. FSU fanboys are definitely on the scream most loudly trail. From my layman standpoint, their lawyers are more on that trail than any legal trail.
 

WreckinGT

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I did read the article. I wanted to point out just how biased it is. I also wanted to point out that even with the bias, they ADMITTED that FSU willingly signed up for the GOR. They are posting and thinking like fanboys, not like lawyers. They want to trash the previous FSU athletics administration, but fail to realize that in doing so they are making arguments counter to the quasi-legal arguments that FSU's lawyers are attempting to make in court. I am not a lawyer, but I can recognize when someone believes that they can win an argument by screaming more loudly instead of making logical and on-point claims. FSU fanboys are definitely on the scream most loudly trail. From my layman standpoint, their lawyers are more on that trail than any legal trail.
I don't think you did read the article if that is your response. No where in the article did they give opinions or take any stances on any of the legal matters. They only summarized them. I guess that made you angry for some reason? Of course it is somewhat framed from FSU's perspective. It is an FSU site and the topic is FSU's amendment. Calling it biased though when it isn't really attempting to take sides on any issue is a bit strange. Between this and your rant about how Ross Dellenger and Brent McMurphy are untrustworthy sources, it is becoming pretty clear that you aren't interested in hearing anything negative about the ACC or the details of what FSU's case might be. Which is fine I guess, but don't keep asking what FSU's end game is if you aren't willing to hear it.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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Of course it is somewhat framed from FSU's perspective.

"Somewhat"

Austin Powers Laser GIF
 

billga99

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I thought the article did a decent job of showing FSU's side of the argument with their recent amendment and I thought their break down of TV viewership for FSU vs other ACC teams was pretty interesting. FSU being in 12 of the 17 ACC games that got over 5 million viewers since 2012 was pretty interesting to me. If anything showing FSU's point of view or coming from an FSU related source bothers you then feel free to not read the article. I thought we already established that you don't trust anything on the internet anyways so im not sure why you even bothered with this.
It would be interesting to see what years drew these viewership. FSU lost 3 games in 2012 thru 2014 with 1 year being National Champions. I don't think starting in 2012 was arbitrary. I wondered what would be the results in the last 5 years. Clemson could cherry pick their playoff years as well and I would suspect would be comparable or better than FSU. I have no doubt that teams in the National Championship hunt have better viewership.
 

RonJohn

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I don't think you did read the article if that is your response. No where in the article did they give opinions or take any stances on any of the legal matters. They only summarized them. I guess that made you angry for some reason? Of course it is somewhat framed from FSU's perspective. It is an FSU site and the topic is FSU's amendment. Calling it biased though when it isn't really attempting to take sides on any issue is a bit strange. Between this and your rant about how Ross Dellenger and Brent McMurphy are untrustworthy sources, it is becoming pretty clear that you aren't interested in hearing anything negative about the ACC or the details of what FSU's case might be. Which is fine I guess, but don't keep asking what FSU's end game is if you aren't willing to hear it.
Bias is involved in "facts" that are presented. Bias is involved in headlines and statements. "If Florida State leaves the ACC, it will cause the conference to implode like the PAC-12" Is that a factual statement, or is it a biased interpretation of what might happen? They list some of the items listed in the FSU amendment to the lawsuit. In that, they quote a former article which stated that the former FSU AD "was a staunch supporter of FSU’s membership in the ACC and later the ACC Network", and that he and the former FSU president willingly signed the GOR extension. They then talk about their biased interpretation that FSU is the entirety of the media value of the ACC and that if FSU leaves that the ACC will basically be worthless. The article is simply fanboy drivel. They don't even realize that they post a direct argument against FSU getting out of the GOR in their own article.

I am not a fanboy of the ACC in particular. I think plenty of negative things about the ACC. I have read FSU's original filing, but I haven't read the complete amendment. The actual details in FSU's filing are almost laughable. That is from reading the actual filing, not from reading someone else's interpretation of it. The ACC filings are logical and point to laws. FSU's filing is sloppy and while it references laws, it doesn't do a good job of lining up it's points with those laws. I have stated many times that I am not a lawyer, but my layman reading of the filings do not seem professional at all.

Either you totally misinterpret my skepticism for total distrust, or you like to twist words to try to win internet arguments. Did I say that McMurphy is "untrustworthy", or did I say that I like to have more information than just his quoting another source before I actually believe what his interpretation about the "magnificent seven"? There are few people/sources that I totally distrust out of hand. There are sources that I have more faith in than others. What I do for the most part is try to find facts from multiple sources, and make my own conclusions.

I think for the end game discussion, we are simply speaking past each other. I do understand that FSU wants to be in the Big10 or SEC in order to make more money. What I don't understand is how their current methods are supposed to get them there. I had a post earlier where I went through possibilities if FSU is able to get out of the ACC. Even if they get out with their media rights, they will not be a fully paid member of either conference until the next media contracts. (2030 for Big10 and 2034 for SEC). To me, the end game discussion is about more than just where FSU would like to be. It is about what is possible for FSU. They WILL NOT get a fully paid membership to either of those conferences. Not because of anything to do with FSU or the ACC, but because fully paid memberships are dependent upon the broadcast companies paying a full amount to the conference. That isn't happening. So, what is FSU trying to get NOW with their actions NOW? If FBS splits up into a "professional" and an "academic" division, then things will be blown up, and this action isn't necessary. In six years, full memberships in the Big10 could be available. FSU's actions might make sense in six years, but why now? Your answer to the end game has been that FSU wants to be a member of the Big10 or SEC making $50 million more than they make in the ACC. Well, no matter what happens in the lawsuits, they won't get that result for at least six years. So why file a lawsuit NOW? What is the end game of the current actions? If they win everything they want, where will they be in 2025 or 2026? They won't be a fully paid member of the Big10. They might be able to make $32 million like Oregon, but that isn't worth the trouble they are going through NOW. In 2030, they could possibly be a fully paid member of the Big10. However, as an end game, where do they think they can possibly be in 2026 as a result of the current legal filings?
 

WreckinGT

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Bias is involved in "facts" that are presented. Bias is involved in headlines and statements. "If Florida State leaves the ACC, it will cause the conference to implode like the PAC-12" Is that a factual statement, or is it a biased interpretation of what might happen? They list some of the items listed in the FSU amendment to the lawsuit. In that, they quote a former article which stated that the former FSU AD "was a staunch supporter of FSU’s membership in the ACC and later the ACC Network", and that he and the former FSU president willingly signed the GOR extension. They then talk about their biased interpretation that FSU is the entirety of the media value of the ACC and that if FSU leaves that the ACC will basically be worthless. The article is simply fanboy drivel. They don't even realize that they post a direct argument against FSU getting out of the GOR in their own article.

I am not a fanboy of the ACC in particular. I think plenty of negative things about the ACC. I have read FSU's original filing, but I haven't read the complete amendment. The actual details in FSU's filing are almost laughable. That is from reading the actual filing, not from reading someone else's interpretation of it. The ACC filings are logical and point to laws. FSU's filing is sloppy and while it references laws, it doesn't do a good job of lining up it's points with those laws. I have stated many times that I am not a lawyer, but my layman reading of the filings do not seem professional at all.

Either you totally misinterpret my skepticism for total distrust, or you like to twist words to try to win internet arguments. Did I say that McMurphy is "untrustworthy", or did I say that I like to have more information than just his quoting another source before I actually believe what his interpretation about the "magnificent seven"? There are few people/sources that I totally distrust out of hand. There are sources that I have more faith in than others. What I do for the most part is try to find facts from multiple sources, and make my own conclusions.

I think for the end game discussion, we are simply speaking past each other. I do understand that FSU wants to be in the Big10 or SEC in order to make more money. What I don't understand is how their current methods are supposed to get them there. I had a post earlier where I went through possibilities if FSU is able to get out of the ACC. Even if they get out with their media rights, they will not be a fully paid member of either conference until the next media contracts. (2030 for Big10 and 2034 for SEC). To me, the end game discussion is about more than just where FSU would like to be. It is about what is possible for FSU. They WILL NOT get a fully paid membership to either of those conferences. Not because of anything to do with FSU or the ACC, but because fully paid memberships are dependent upon the broadcast companies paying a full amount to the conference. That isn't happening. So, what is FSU trying to get NOW with their actions NOW? If FBS splits up into a "professional" and an "academic" division, then things will be blown up, and this action isn't necessary. In six years, full memberships in the Big10 could be available. FSU's actions might make sense in six years, but why now? Your answer to the end game has been that FSU wants to be a member of the Big10 or SEC making $50 million more than they make in the ACC. Well, no matter what happens in the lawsuits, they won't get that result for at least six years. So why file a lawsuit NOW? What is the end game of the current actions? If they win everything they want, where will they be in 2025 or 2026? They won't be a fully paid member of the Big10. They might be able to make $32 million like Oregon, but that isn't worth the trouble they are going through NOW. In 2030, they could possibly be a fully paid member of the Big10. However, as an end game, where do they think they can possibly be in 2026 as a result of the current legal filings?
If bias is completely devoid of opinion then I guess I will agree with you. Saying the ACC is going to implode if FSU were to get out is an opinion, shared by many but it is an opinion at this point. If that is what you are fixated on in a fairly long article going over many things then I guess it is what it is. Ill refrain from posting anything that might explain things from FSUs side from now on if it causes this much anger and derailing.
 

RonJohn

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If bias is completely devoid of opinion then I guess I will agree with you. Saying the ACC is going to implode if FSU were to get out is an opinion, shared by many but it is an opinion at this point. If that is what you are fixated on in a fairly long article going over many things then I guess it is what it is. Ill refrain from posting anything that might explain things from FSUs side from now on if it causes this much anger and derailing.
I don't understand where you see anger. It is very common for fanboy or political sites to demonstrate bias simply by what facts they choose to include and which they choose to ignore. This article only included "facts" that support FSU and ignored anything that didn't. (except they couldn't even see that they stated themselves that FSU knowingly and willingly signed the GOR fully understanding its meaning and impact.) This article in addition to including only "facts" that support FSU, skewed those "facts" so heavily that they are on the verge of not being factual.

If you have any information that actually supports FSU's legal arguments, I am very interested in hearing them. I haven't read the amended filing, but the original filing could be summed up as -- the ACC sucks and we got screwed. From my reading and limited understanding, there are no strong logical and legal points. If you have a link to a lawyer who has done an analysis of it and has decided that it has strong merit, please point me to it. I would be interested in reading his analysis. I have only seen one that was supportive. It was by a graduate of FSU. His analysis didn't have a lot of strength, but basically said that FSU needs to press certain points in their filing.

In my posts, I am not rooting for or against either side. I am trying to look logically at the arguments presented in the filings. I am not emotional about it at all. I am simply trying to figure out who has better legal arguments, because that is what wins cases in court. I am trying to understand why FSU is taking such actions at this point in time. Looking at things without emotion tied to it, FSU's administration looks like fanboys who are frothing at the mouth and don't have clear direction. If their goal is to get in the Big10 or SEC by 2026, I do not think they are taking actions most likely to get them there.
 

stinger 1957

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Is it possible that an SEC school leaves the SEC and goes to the Big 10. SEC AAU schools presently are FL, MO, TX, TX A&M and Vandy. I have thought for a while now that it was definitely a future possibility, but just heard it mentioned in a sort of passing comment by a talking head who talks to a lot of people all the time.
What happens if FL pulls out and goes to the Big 10, ESPN needs a school from FL drastically at that point. FSU? UCF? Both? Miami (now AAU) will go to the Big 10 over SEC. ESPN is not going to give up the state of FL, everybody wants that. They are not going to let their SEC get that damaged, they will give up ACC to keep SEC in good shape. Yes just speculation but what I'm learning about the desirability of being AAU in Big 10 indicates to me it is more important than the money coming from being a Big 10 athletic program. I have for a while thought FL was a potential for the Big 10, but only down the line. Could FL be used to trigger the whole eastern realignment process? I'm convinced the whole eastern realignment gets triggered by something yet unknown, it will be about the TV money. In order to understand, it's the money and the real big money comes through being AAU in the Big 10, once I saw that then the picture became much, much clearer regarding the desirability ( by school administrators ) to be in the Big 10 over any other conference. UFL school administration understands, just as GT administration understands. I speculate things will happen this year towards realignment, don't know what but the season is over and it's that time again IMO.
 

RonJohn

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Is it possible that an SEC school leaves the SEC and goes to the Big 10. SEC AAU schools presently are FL, MO, TX, TX A&M and Vandy. I have thought for a while now that it was definitely a future possibility, but just heard it mentioned in a sort of passing comment by a talking head who talks to a lot of people all the time.
What happens if FL pulls out and goes to the Big 10, ESPN needs a school from FL drastically at that point. FSU? UCF? Both? Miami (now AAU) will go to the Big 10 over SEC. ESPN is not going to give up the state of FL, everybody wants that. They are not going to let their SEC get that damaged, they will give up ACC to keep SEC in good shape. Yes just speculation but what I'm learning about the desirability of being AAU in Big 10 indicates to me it is more important than the money coming from being a Big 10 athletic program. I have for a while thought FL was a potential for the Big 10, but only down the line. Could FL be used to trigger the whole eastern realignment process? I'm convinced the whole eastern realignment gets triggered by something yet unknown, it will be about the TV money. In order to understand, it's the money and the real big money comes through being AAU in the Big 10, once I saw that then the picture became much, much clearer regarding the desirability ( by school administrators ) to be in the Big 10 over any other conference. UFL school administration understands, just as GT administration understands. I speculate things will happen this year towards realignment, don't know what but the season is over and it's that time again IMO.
Why would UF move out of the SEC to the Big10? I am not big into UF sports, but I haven't seen any indication that they aren't happy in the SEC. The money would be similar. Travel would be more problematic. Does UF want to play games in Nebraska, Iowa, or Minnesota in November? I don't see any upside. It might make an interesting scenario discussion, but I don't think it is realistic.

If the ACC does disband, Miami would probably be the Big10 choice for Florida. I do think there are other factors that could result in conference realignment, or even elimination. Court rulings on players as employees. Division split of FBS. Those things could happen a lot faster than the end of the ACC GOR.
 

Northeast Stinger

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If bias is completely devoid of opinion then I guess I will agree with you. Saying the ACC is going to implode if FSU were to get out is an opinion, shared by many but it is an opinion at this point. If that is what you are fixated on in a fairly long article going over many things then I guess it is what it is. Ill refrain from posting anything that might explain things from FSUs side from now on if it causes this much anger and derailing.
What I thought was interesting in the article was the calm assertion that FSU leaving the ACC was a foregone conclusion. This was the premise behind everything else, not if they will leave but the way it might play out. I had always assumed FSU might be forced to stick it out with the ACC.

To be sure this is an FSU point of view but if everyone on our site spoke with the same level of certitude about Tech joining the B1G the casual outside observer might assume that where there’s smoke there’s fire. Something has seeped into the FSU culture by word of mouth that I’m not sure we are entirely privy to. Maybe it’s mass hysteria, maybe not, but from my experience the fan base of any program usually has an inside track on the latest trades and deals long before outside “objective” parties.

Interesting to get their perception.
 

Vespidae

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What I thought was interesting in the article was the calm assertion that FSU leaving the ACC was a foregone conclusion. This was the premise behind everything else, not if they will leave but the way it might play out. I had always assumed FSU might be forced to stick it out with the ACC.

To be sure this is an FSU point of view but if everyone on our site spoke with the same level of certitude about Tech joining the B1G the casual outside observer might assume that where there’s smoke there’s fire. Something has seeped into the FSU culture by word of mouth that I’m not sure we are entirely privy to. Maybe it’s mass hysteria, maybe not, but from my experience the fan base of any program usually has an inside track on the latest trades and deals long before outside “objective” parties.

Interesting to get their perception.
I asked my brother who is an FSU grad.

They want to be taken seriously. As seriously as Alabama, or Ohio State, or Washington. FSU regards the ACC as basically, the SunBelt. It is holding them back, not advancing their cause.

Do they have a landing place? No. Media contract? No. They simply want to wash the unpleasantness of what they think is the tarnish of being in the ACC away.

Irrational. And they don’t care that the ACC carried them when times were bad. It’s about respect. And FSU wants out … to be respected.

The madness of crowds.
 
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