Clinton & Trump are criminals and should be in jail. /sarcasm

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Northeast Stinger

Northeast Stinger

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You quote me but I think you are responding to beelbo here. The FISA warrant came long before Comey was fired, the alleged obstruction which is a laughable allegation.
What is your point? You do realize that the traffic being monitored, the very traffic I have been talking about, started at least five years ago. Some of the conversations that were deemed highly suspicious by the NSA go back before Trump even declared as a candidate. You are making assumptions that the FISA warants were strickly related to Trump. They did not start there. Whether they are there now is an open question.

There is some fair concern the independent investigators are pre-biased. Robert Mueller is a life long Republican and was appointed by George W. Bush to the FBI post. No one, Republican or Democrat, that I know of thinks he is anything other than an independent straight shooter. I recommend you read his bio.

The fact that Obama's executive order dispersed this intel to 17 govt agencies makes it fairly impossible to ever identify any individuals involved in the unmasking. Barring media uncovering the anonymous leakers, which will never happen. What legitimate purpose did Obama have in disseminating this intel to all of these 17 agencies???
Not sure where you get your info from. The 17 govt agencies that have stated Trump Tower was not wiretapped did so in the context of a request from Trump himself. Most of these were not involved prior to this and had no knowledge NSA data or the particular Trump operatives who were unmasked. Not that it matters, but I have thought all along that the two people who were unmasked were Flynn and Manafort. If they were the ones unmasked I am frankly glad. Both of these gangsters were way too cozy with the murdering thug Putin.

No. The FBI utilized the bogus fusion dossier info to garner the FISA warrant. Maybe they threw the pings you reference in to boot but the dossier was the big factor.
The pings had nothing to do with the dossier. The dossier was widely dismissed when it first came out. It has only become more relevant as independent witnesses have confirmed time lines and details in the dossier. Mueller has only recently started to take the dossier more seriously.

It sure is not legal to unmask without cause and no good cause has yet been shown. Add in the organized leak / smear campaign and it's extremely illegal. It is important to keep in mind that the leak of unmasking came from the White House. I cannot begin to understand what the palace intrigue is in that place. But several people have left/been kicked out who were either accused of being the leakers or who later claimed they knew who the leakers were. Several names have been given for who the leakers are but I am not sure we can trust the sources since several people seem to have an axe to grind. Steve Bannon is the lastest to claim that members of Trump's own staff have been the leakers and, like others before him, he names names. .

No it's not a hack of the election. It would be propoganda.
I think you are underestimating how sophisticated this attack was. My concern is that nothing has been fixed to keep it from happening again.

I admit I can't follow all of the Trumpsters hyperboles. I believe he said he did not have any personal dealings on Russia. As for his staff what he denied was collision with the Russian government interfering in the election.
I sympathize with trying to keep up with Trump. However, one direct quote of his was, "My people have stayed as far away from Russia as possible." The only problem with this is that many of his denials happened before we found out about meetings with Russian operatives in Trump Tower. He later claimed that he did not know about the famous Russia meeting with Trump, Jr., and Jared Kushner even though it was right down the hall from him. Sometimes I honestly don't think he means to lie, I think he just has an inbred gut instinct to go on offense when he thinks he is being attacked. This has caused him to say many laughably false statements. The idea that he never had any dealings with Russia, which he has maintained with little qualification, is an example of, in my opinion, him needing to learn to be more nuanced in his pronouncements.

The dossier has been widely and roundly condemned as false.
Only those with political motivation would conclude that it is either false or true. We do not know yet. Mueller is working on finding out how much of it is true. His focus seems to be mainly on the financial transactions that the dossier deals with.

I have heard it's actually the Dems on the committee blocking the release of info.
That is the first I have heard of that. I know that Richard Blumenthal wants Glenn Simpon's sworn testimony before a closed Senate intelligence committee made public along with the dossier.

So, in conclusion I see no evidence of wire tapping by Obama and you have failed to produce any. This confirms what has been found since Trump famously asked for his own investigation. The smear campaign against Obama started by Trump has been going on for years. After Trump kept saying for over a year that he had proof that Obama was not a citizen, that his birth certificate was fake and that he was probably a Muslim, and then produced nothing, it became clear that he attacks Obama for political reasons. Since these seem to work for him I doubt he will stop. But my advice to anyone who supports Trump would be that you might want to find other reasons to support him because this line of attack is a dead end.










 
Northeast Stinger

Northeast Stinger

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I may have to be absent again from this thread for a few days. I cannot believe my luck this year but I have even more family in the way of this hurricane than I had in Houston. My daughter is there, as is my brother and his family, as well as a niece and nephew and several great nieces and nephews, as well as in-laws.

So you will understand if I do not reply for a while.
 
Whiskey_Clear

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Northeast Stinger said:
I may have to be absent again from this thread for a few days. I cannot believe my luck this year but I have even more family in the way of this hurricane than I had in Houston. My daughter is there, as is my brother and his family, as well as a niece and nephew and several great nieces and nephews, as well as in-laws.

So you will understand if I do not reply for a while.
Click to expand...

Prayers for all. I have some evacuees heading my way. Glad I'm not having to navigate my way out of there.
 
Whiskey_Clear

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@Northeast Stinger

I have no sympathy or tolerance for government corruption. Fron either side of the political spectrum. With respect I don't believe you do. I guess it can be tempting to overlook government corruption so long as you yourself or your political ideologies aren't currently affected. If not rooted out it's not a matter of if but when that begins to happen for you.

We appear to have a much wider gulf between us in the matters of this thread than in the AGW debate. Little chance of finding much common ground here.
 

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Northeast Stinger said:
You quote me but I think you are responding to beelbo here. The FISA warrant came long before Comey was fired, the alleged obstruction which is a laughable allegation.
What is your point? You do realize that the traffic being monitored, the very traffic I have been talking about, started at least five years ago. Some of the conversations that were deemed highly suspicious by the NSA go back before Trump even declared as a candidate. You are making assumptions that the FISA warants were strickly related to Trump. They did not start there. Whether they are there now is an open question.

There is some fair concern the independent investigators are pre-biased. Robert Mueller is a life long Republican and was appointed by George W. Bush to the FBI post. No one, Republican or Democrat, that I know of thinks he is anything other than an independent straight shooter. I recommend you read his bio.

The fact that Obama's executive order dispersed this intel to 17 govt agencies makes it fairly impossible to ever identify any individuals involved in the unmasking. Barring media uncovering the anonymous leakers, which will never happen. What legitimate purpose did Obama have in disseminating this intel to all of these 17 agencies???
Not sure where you get your info from. The 17 govt agencies that have stated Trump Tower was not wiretapped did so in the context of a request from Trump himself. Most of these were not involved prior to this and had no knowledge NSA data or the particular Trump operatives who were unmasked. Not that it matters, but I have thought all along that the two people who were unmasked were Flynn and Manafort. If they were the ones unmasked I am frankly glad. Both of these gangsters were way too cozy with the murdering thug Putin.

No. The FBI utilized the bogus fusion dossier info to garner the FISA warrant. Maybe they threw the pings you reference in to boot but the dossier was the big factor.
The pings had nothing to do with the dossier. The dossier was widely dismissed when it first came out. It has only become more relevant as independent witnesses have confirmed time lines and details in the dossier. Mueller has only recently started to take the dossier more seriously.

It sure is not legal to unmask without cause and no good cause has yet been shown. Add in the organized leak / smear campaign and it's extremely illegal. It is important to keep in mind that the leak of unmasking came from the White House. I cannot begin to understand what the palace intrigue is in that place. But several people have left/been kicked out who were either accused of being the leakers or who later claimed they knew who the leakers were. Several names have been given for who the leakers are but I am not sure we can trust the sources since several people seem to have an axe to grind. Steve Bannon is the lastest to claim that members of Trump's own staff have been the leakers and, like others before him, he names names. .

No it's not a hack of the election. It would be propoganda.
I think you are underestimating how sophisticated this attack was. My concern is that nothing has been fixed to keep it from happening again.

I admit I can't follow all of the Trumpsters hyperboles. I believe he said he did not have any personal dealings on Russia. As for his staff what he denied was collision with the Russian government interfering in the election.
I sympathize with trying to keep up with Trump. However, one direct quote of his was, "My people have stayed as far away from Russia as possible." The only problem with this is that many of his denials happened before we found out about meetings with Russian operatives in Trump Tower. He later claimed that he did not know about the famous Russia meeting with Trump, Jr., and Jared Kushner even though it was right down the hall from him. Sometimes I honestly don't think he means to lie, I think he just has an inbred gut instinct to go on offense when he thinks he is being attacked. This has caused him to say many laughably false statements. The idea that he never had any dealings with Russia, which he has maintained with little qualification, is an example of, in my opinion, him needing to learn to be more nuanced in his pronouncements.

The dossier has been widely and roundly condemned as false.
Only those with political motivation would conclude that it is either false or true. We do not know yet. Mueller is working on finding out how much of it is true. His focus seems to be mainly on the financial transactions that the dossier deals with.

I have heard it's actually the Dems on the committee blocking the release of info.
That is the first I have heard of that. I know that Richard Blumenthal wants Glenn Simpon's sworn testimony before a closed Senate intelligence committee made public along with the dossier.

So, in conclusion I see no evidence of wire tapping by Obama and you have failed to produce any. This confirms what has been found since Trump famously asked for his own investigation. The smear campaign against Obama started by Trump has been going on for years. After Trump kept saying for over a year that he had proof that Obama was not a citizen, that his birth certificate was fake and that he was probably a Muslim, and then produced nothing, it became clear that he attacks Obama for political reasons. Since these seem to work for him I doubt he will stop. But my advice to anyone who supports Trump would be that you might want to find other reasons to support him because this line of attack is a dead end.









Click to expand...

"I see no evidence of wire tapping by Obama and you have failed to produce any."

Okay, lets say it this way. Ignore Obama and ignore the phrase wire tapping. The Intelligence agencies have been surveilling Trump and those around him for a very long time. Tons and tons of information has been leaking out about it and people unmasked going back something like 2 years.

I'm not going to split hairs about the definition of words and if there was an official wiretap or if it was done by someone you'd call in the Obama Administration or not. Those details to me honestly are irrelevant to the main point. We've been under a silent coup from inside the intelligence agencies for quite a long time.
 
AE 87

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bwelbo said:
"I see no evidence of wire tapping by Obama and you have failed to produce any."

Okay, lets say it this way. Ignore Obama and ignore the phrase wire tapping. The Intelligence agencies have been surveilling Trump and those around him for a very long time. Tons and tons of information has been leaking out about it and people unmasked going back something like 2 years.

I'm not going to split hairs about the definition of words and if there was an official wiretap or if it was done by someone you'd call in the Obama Administration or not. Those details to me honestly are irrelevant to the main point. We've been under a silent coup from inside the intelligence agencies for quite a long time.
Click to expand...

He has admitted all that. He wants to say that we have intelligence of "Trump" contacts with Russia AND that our intelligence didn't monitor "Trump."

It's like the Trinity, 3 persons but 1 essence. Matters of faith don't need to make sense.

I earlier linked to a politifact article that showed Hillary knew the FBI had evidence of classified material in her emails before she made statements denying it. Yet, he defends her as a good Christian who wouldn't lie.

A fundamentalist Baptist is more likely to deny Jesus walked on water than he is to acknowledge he's wrong on any of this, imho.
 
Whiskey_Clear

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Only just starting to watch this vid but I do like S Crowder. His politics align fairly well with mine but more importantly he's just dang entertaining.

He's making some points about politifact, held in the highest regards by libs...but oh so biased. Figured I'd share link rather than make a 10 min long draft to explain same.

 
GTNavyNuke

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Northeast Stinger said:
I may have to be absent again from this thread for a few days. I cannot believe my luck this year but I have even more family in the way of this hurricane than I had in Houston. My daughter is there, as is my brother and his family, as well as a niece and nephew and several great nieces and nephews, as well as in-laws.

So you will understand if I do not reply for a while.
Click to expand...

Good luck to all. I have family in SC that I'll go help recover if needed. Bring supplies from out of town and just help clean up. The post hurricane recovery is truly awful but a time to come together.
 

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collegeballfan

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Check this thread on occasion to see how the discussion goes in regard to the many news stories.
(FWIW I do not have a dog in this hunt.)
FBI does not investigate people but crimes. It is hard from news stories to tell the difference but it is real.

Appears Manafort was subject to investigation for money laundering and Trump appointed him to campaign after that investigation started.
Manafort kinda brought the FBI into the Trump organization after FBI started investigating to see if there was anything to the rumors of
Russian meddling in the campaign.
That Trump has not and is not being investigated appears to be a correct statement as, again, crimes are investigated, not people. No one has attached a
crime to Trump that he has not already confessed to or settled (i.e. Trump University). So expect him to remain clean.
Like most of the Washington, DC stuff it is the cover up that gets one's hide nailed to the barn door.

Some of you might want to read the federal statute that governs "unmasking".
 
Whiskey_Clear

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LibertyTurns

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Whiskey_Clear

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LibertyTurns said:
Well, we've gone from an admission of "incidental surveillance" to full blown wiretapping. C'mon guys some time in the last 25 years Manafort HAD to have made at least 1 comment in one of his conversations that you could prosecute him for. They surely can warp something into a charge of something, right or are they really that incompetent?
Click to expand...

Yes:cigar:
 

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LibertyTurns said:
Well, we've gone from an admission of "incidental surveillance" to full blown wiretapping. C'mon guys some time in the last 25 years Manafort HAD to have made at least 1 comment in one of his conversations that you could prosecute him for. They surely can warp something into a charge of something, right or are they really that incompetent?
Click to expand...

They haven't charged him despite surveilling him for nearly 2 years. Democrats are unintentionally colliding with the Russians.
 
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