Clemson Post-game Thread

[geno57]

Pretty sure every team in the P5 uses option football. Including us and the team that just beat us.

Not the Paul Johnson quarterback under center...run dominant...only pass when we mean it version that almost everyone on this GT site and others have been complaining about for years

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I wasn’t making assertions, i was using rankings by what has traditionally been a respectable outlet. If they aren’t anymore then let’s go with rivals since 247 isn’t trustworthy. Is one 4 star and no top 250 players where we want to be? Is that not a pretty big drop off from last year?

Having a Jahmyr Gibbs and a Miles Brooks sure would be nice, but those are exceptions. And by the way, Miles Brooks hasn’t even been ATL. Bryce Gowdy didn’t make it to campus. The accelerators beyond the 5.9 for being a top 250 player and Bryce Gowdy not being here inflated our class last year. Our class was ranked several spots higher because of that. I mean I get your overall point, which is valid - we need to do better. But our average rating last class and this class are significantly better than normal classes and puts us in the #5 - #7 in the ACC range.

 

[GoldZ]

Having a Jahmyr Gibbs and a Miles Brooks sure would be nice, but those are exceptions. And by the way, Miles Brooks hasn’t even been ATL. Bryce Gowdy didn’t make it to campus. The accelerators beyond the 5.9 for being a top 250 player and Bryce Gowdy not being here inflated our class last year. Our class was ranked several spots higher because of that. I mean I get your overall point, which is valid - we need to do better. But our average rating last class and this class are significantly better than normal classes and puts us in the #5 - #7 in the ACC range.

#5-6-7 in the ACC is not "elite" per CGC's promises. He's definitely a good recruiter, but overpromising comes back to haunt when losing. Of course when winning, nothing matters. Over the next 18-19 games there has to be to any eye an obvious improvement trend. Otherwise, the Big $ guys ain't gonna bite. Then we really are in trouble.

 

[4shotB]

. Of course when winning, nothing matters.

The corollary is "when losing, nothing matters." Any complaint of a coach whether it's his personality, style, comportment with fans or media, playcalling, schemes, recruiting, choice of assistants, etc. usually means,at the end of the day, the guy making the complaint is ultimately displeased with the W's and L's.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

#5-6-7 in the ACC is not "elite" per CGC's promises. He's definitely a good recruiter, but overpromising comes back to haunt when losing. Of course when winning, nothing matters. Over the next 18-19 games there has to be to any eye an obvious improvement trend. Otherwise, the Big $ guys ain't gonna bite. Then we really are in trouble.

I’d say taking a team who averaged #45 in recruiting and bringing in #25 ranked classes is an obvious improvement. I also don’t recall CGC or people on this board expecting us to have top 10 classes. I may have missed it though.

 

[orientalnc]

I’d say taking a team who averaged #45 in recruiting and bringing in #25 ranked classes is an obvious improvement. I also don’t recall CGC or people on this board expecting us to have top 10 classes. I may have missed it though.

This is an excellent point. We are struggling right now to win games. It doesn't matter which opponent, so talking about being an elite program is premature by a lot. Instead of comparing our recruiting success with Clemson, let's compare it to UNC and Virginia Tech. If we can consistently be in their neighborhood the wins will come and we can start talking about the next set of goals. If you think we can be #10, which of the current top ten do you think we will displace? By when?

 

[GoldZ]

I’d say taking a team who averaged #45 in recruiting and bringing in #25 ranked classes is an obvious improvement. I also don’t recall CGC or people on this board expecting us to have top 10 classes. I may have missed it though.

Who said he or brd members here said that? He has said repeatedly we would recruit at an elite level, ok? At a bare minimum in most people's minds imo, that means classes with high 3s and numerous (5-7) 4s. This has to happen consistently or he has over promised. It hasn't happened yet, but time will tell. No matter what, my point was: the remainder of this season and next season must show significant improvement or the money guys won't deliver (they might not anyway).

 

[Milwaukee]

 

[GCdaJuiceMan]

Latest indication is ugag unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Who said he or brd members here said that? He has said repeatedly we would recruit at an elite level, ok? At a bare minimum in most people's minds imo, that means classes with high 3s and numerous (5-7) 4s. This has to happen consistently or he has over promised. It hasn't happened yet, but time will tell. No matter what, my point was: the remainder of this season and next season must show significant improvement or the money guys won't deliver (they might not anyway).

we moved from number 45 to number 25. And the argument is being made that we haven’t made a significant improvement. I’m assuming that means you’re inferring we should have top 10 classes. If I’m wrong, what what am I missing with your definition of elite? There are two problems here. First, you’re arguing that we haven’t made a significant improvement in recruiting. Second, you seem to be arguing that top 25 is not a significant improvement but that 10 is an unreasonable expectation.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Who said he or brd members here said that? He has said repeatedly we would recruit at an elite level, ok? At a bare minimum in most people's minds imo, that means classes with high 3s and numerous (5-7) 4s. This has to happen consistently or he has over promised. It hasn't happened yet, but time will tell. No matter what, my point was: the remainder of this season and next season must show significant improvement or the money guys won't deliver (they might not anyway).

Also, RE numerous 4-stars, we had 4 guys rated 4-stars last year (5.8+) - 3 if you ignore Bryce Gowdy. We had another 6 guys rated 5.7, 2 of whom were rated 4-stars by 247. Thats 5-6 guys at least rated 4-stars by one agency or another. So far this year we also have 6 guys rated 5.7. We’re almost exactly where we were last year at this time. Last year we had 5 guys rated 5.5 or lower - we currently only have 3 (I don’t include kickers since they never get rated well).

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

we moved from number 45 to number 25. And the argument is being made that we haven’t made a significant improvement. I’m assuming that means you’re inferring we should have top 10 classes. If I’m wrong, what what am I missing with your definition of elite? There are two problems here. First, you’re arguing that we haven’t made a significant improvement in recruiting. Second, you seem to be arguing that top 25 is not a significant improvement but that 10 is an unreasonable expectation.

It's not @GoldZ 's definition of elite that matters. I'd like to know what CGC considers elite. While I can easily see the improvement in recruiting, and would consider the current level as great, I don't consider rankings in the 20-30 range "elite" by any stretch of the imagination. Can we win 7-9 games a year on average with classes in that range and good coaching? Sure. And if we get to that level of football I will be content. My biggest gripe with CGC is describing things as elite that aren't actually elite dilutes the actual meaning of the word.

 

[Vespidae]

It's not @GoldZ 's definition of elite that matters. I'd like to know what CGC considers elite. While I can easily see the improvement in recruiting, and would consider the current level as great, I don't consider rankings in the 20-30 range "elite" by any stretch of the imagination. Can we win 7-9 games a year on average with classes in that range and good coaching? Sure. And if we get to that level of football I will be content. My biggest gripe with CGC is describing things as elite that aren't actually elite dilutes the actual meaning of the word.

I have no idea what Geoff's strategy is, but ... if GT was a business, we would never take on Number 1 right out of the gate. No, if you are Number 50 (or whatever), you're better off getting a list of the Top Programs and then, picking off the weaker or more vulnerable ones for talent. Who's got a new coach? Who's not getting playing time? Who's on probation? Who just got funding cut? And then, make a pitch for unhappy players to come over.

Competing directly against the top programs without the resources or infrastructure is folly IMO. In 2-4 years, talent will rise, they will tell their friends and you rise up to where you are picking up talent from numbers 10-20 and then ... you can claim to be elite.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

It's not @GoldZ 's definition of elite that matters. I'd like to know what CGC considers elite. While I can easily see the improvement in recruiting, and would consider the current level as great, I don't consider rankings in the 20-30 range "elite" by any stretch of the imagination. Can we win 7-9 games a year on average with classes in that range and good coaching? Sure. And if we get to that level of football I will be content. My biggest gripe with CGC is describing things as elite that aren't actually elite dilutes the actual meaning of the word.

That to me is a distinction without a difference. He’s disagreeing with CGCs definition of elite - which means what then? I also don’t think we’re recruiting very many elite players at all. But part of the argument back above was that we haven’t made a significant improvement. I don’t see how anybody could say that. Now we need to start winning more in the next year to continue that momentum and move up closer to #20 or top 20. There are undoubtedly many guys at the top who need to see results on the field and in the NFL draft before coming here.

 

[lv20gt]

Here are the 4* plus guys that have came here since Collins was hired. I'm using 247 fwiw.

Griffin
Myles Sims
Clayton
Ezzard
Gibbs
Jeff Sims
Brooks
Ivey
Ryan Johnson
Derrik Allen

With BlackStrain and Watson on the way (and the current class is likely to be more volatile in rankings compared to normal due to the limited opportunities to evaluate them). That's ~5-6 per year on average pace and that is also coming with, on average, higher rated three stars.

Collins was brought in under the premise of improved recruiting and he has done that (with the inclusions of transfers as well). The issue with that type of coaching change is that improved recruiting is a delayed benefit for the most part. For example, Collins had nothing to do with the Junior or senior class recruiting, and minimal to do with the sophomore class recruiting. We're seeing young guys making an impact early, and we're also seeing why having young guys make an impact early isn't always a good thing.

Going forward, Collins does need to turn the recruiting improvement into improved play, and we are improved from last year to this, and then turn that into even further improved recruiting. I don't expect Collins to get the most out of recruiting during these early few years. I do expect, should he have a 10+ win year or something, that leads to a further increased level of recruiting. That was one of the things I feel hurt Johnson, his inability to turn on the field success into greater recruiting success.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Going forward, Collins does need to turn the recruiting improvement into improved play, and we are improved from last year to this, and then turn that into even further improved recruiting. I don't expect Collins to get the most out of recruiting during these early few years. I do expect, should he have a 10+ win year or something, that leads to a further increased level of recruiting. That was one of the things I feel hurt Johnson, his inability to turn on the field success into greater recruiting success.

Yep, we were 13 points from being undefeated in 2014, finishing ranked #7 in the country. That 2015 recruiting class was ranked #39...with TWENTY-SEVEN recruits!!!

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

That to me is a distinction without a difference. He’s disagreeing with CGCs definition of elite - which means what then? I also don’t think we’re recruiting very many elite players at all. But part of the argument back above was that we haven’t made a significant improvement. I don’t see how anybody could say that. Now we need to start winning more in the next year to continue that momentum and move up closer to #20 or top 20. There are undoubtedly many guys at the top who need to see results on the field and in the NFL draft before coming here.

I think that's because you misconstrued what he was trying to say. I read his quote to mean that we needed to see an "obvious improvement" on where we are now, not where we started from. He admitted in his post that CGC was a good recruiter, but was simply arguing that #5-7 in the ACC is not elite recruiting. I agree with assertions on overpromising, which as I stated, has been my biggest gripe with this constant usage of the word elite. I get branding, but you can easily dilute the meaning of something when you use it to describe everything.

#5-6-7 in the ACC is not "elite" per CGC's promises. He's definitely a good recruiter, but overpromising comes back to haunt when losing. Of course when winning, nothing matters. Over the next 18-19 games there has to be to any eye an obvious improvement trend. Otherwise, the Big $ guys ain't gonna bite. Then we really are in trouble.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I think that's because you misconstrued what he was trying to say. I read his quote to mean that we needed to see an "obvious improvement" on where we are now, not where we started from. He admitted in his post that CGC was a good recruiter, but was simply arguing that #5-7 in the ACC is not elite recruiting. I agree with assertions on overpromising, which as I stated, has been my biggest gripe with this constant usage of the word elite. I get branding, but you can easily dilute the meaning of something when you use it to describe everything.

Yep. If everything is elite, then nothing is.

 

[AlabamaBuzz]

Once again - it is true that Alabama can throw the bank at Dabo - but he has everything from a coaching perspective to lose and really nothing to gain - he is already extremely well off financially, and Clem's Son will continue to give him more. He might do it if his emotion overcomes his logical side, but I really think he is "country boy" smart, and he will stay where he is until he retires - HOF coach with buildings and stadiums and streets named after him, just like sa(t)an at Bammer.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Once again - it is true that Alabama can throw the bank at Dabo - but he has everything from a coaching perspective to lose and really nothing to gain - he is already extremely well off financially, and Clem's Son will continue to give him more. He might do it if his emotion overcomes his logical side, but I really think he is "country boy" smart, and he will stay where he is until he retires - HOF coach with buildings and stadiums and streets named after him, just like sa(t)an at Bammer.

I work with a couple of big Clemson donors, and both have stated Clemson can not keep up with Bama spending long term. They are "All in" at the moment, but simply don't have a large enough fan base to keep spending at this level in perpetuity. At some point, this ride they are on will slow down. The question is will it be before or after Dabo leaves the program. With the facilities they've built, and the infrastructure that's in place currently, I'm betting Dabo stays at Clemson for the rest of his career. The real question is if they can afford to keep the assistants at the salary level they are paying them now.