Brent Key is not the answer

Jacket05

Ramblin' Wreck
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598
Cooley goes down really easy for someone his size.
I don't understand why Cooley plays as much as he does. He has not impressed me with any part of his game. He had the one good game this year (I believe his old team Louisville). He did have the one long run yesterday because it was wide open but I think Haynes scores on that run (Dantae may have too). All his other runs just seem to hit the line and stall. I don't pay too much attention to blocking so that may be his strength but if all you do is block that is a wasted RB position.
 

Heisman's Ghost

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So I've thought on this quite a bit...and maybe Key just needs more time, but early indications aren't great. Fans often refer to "coaching" as one thing, but really it's a several different things: fundamentals, game prep/strategy, execution, in-game adjustments.

I think the one area that Key has definitely improved upon is fundamentals. We've generally gotten better at blocking and tackling. We aren't great, but we are better. Game prep/strategy on offense looks miles ahead of where we have been.

Execution continues to be a serious issue. Our staff just doesn't seem to mesh well on game day. How can we have multiple plays where we have 9-10 guys on the field? How can we burn a time out on 4th and 8 to punt when a delay of game would have actually helped us? How can we let half the clock run off at the end of a half with 50+ seconds and two time outs?

In-game adjustments - I don't know. To my untrained eye it sure seems like we take a long time to see opportunity. For weeks I've felt like the read options have given us a chance for big plays, but we use them sparingly and King has a tendency to give more than keep. Yesterday we finally busted a few big plays. Seems like we could have gone this route earlier.

Bottom line is we just are not very good. We've won eight games at Bobby Dodd in 4.5 years. Only four of those were ACC games. We will not be favored in another home game this year. Hiring Key felt like a settle at the time and IMO he should have a relatively short leash. Changing directions after a year would be foolish, but it really feels like the wheels are coming off and we're going to finish with 3-4 wins again. If we repeat this trend next year with the same look and feel I don't know how we could stick with him. My hope is that the team responds with 2 more wins and looks competitive in the other games. Then that at least gives you something to build on.

...another thought to echo Key's post-game comments on the radio...it's time to have some tough conversations with players and get some bad attitudes out the door.
Regarding your last sentence...a coach's best friend is the pine and if that does not work, show them the door. There are plenty of players on that team that need to change their attitudes and work ethic or hit the road. A Florida coach once had a situation with a player not going to class. He told the young man that he was being punished with extra conditioning drills to change his mindset. Replied the outraged player who had been hyped as possible All SEC material the next year: "Do you know who I am?" Replied the coach: "Sure, you used to play football for the University of Florida" This was not all that long ago either.
 

bke1984

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One of the things I used to enjoy about the old coaches (Bear Bryant, Dodd, Bo), is how simple their game plans were. Bear’s were often on one side of a piece of paper.

The stats are that your likelihood of scoring is proportional to your starting field position. Get the ball on your own ten yard line and the likelihood of scoring is ten percent. Bear’s entire game plan was ”get to midfield”. He loved a good punt … start at the twenty, get 15 yards, punt? Dammit, ok. Longest time play in the game (7-8 second), so you get good TOP and the odds are back in your favor. Stop them, change possessions and you’re at midfield and didn’t make a mistake. He won the SEC at Kentucky running six plays on offense.

Dodd said the same. Keep the game close, win it in the fourth. Always go for an TD if inside the ten. (His stats shows GT was 50% likely to score, so 7 beats six, all day long.)

Bill P said his entire game was turnover ratio and hidden yardage. Very difficult to lose if you are +2 in turnovers and have more than 100 yds in hidden yardage. CPJ famously once said he didn’t care about defense. Just score 28 points and win TOP and it’s a W, statistically speaking.

I don’t hear that from anyone in todays game. Very few. It’s more about NIL and the portal.
Yep, that basically sums it up. Everyone today is far too worried about what they look like than they are about actually winning the damn game. This is true with style of play, uniforms, game day experience, etc. There are proven ways to win football games that no one wants to talk about anymore.
 

Swarm-Phinny

Georgia Tech Fan
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44
I had enough time to calm down and sleep off the anger. My thoughts on key.
A great guy but a young inexperienced coach. (And it shows) probably not what tech needed after the Collins disaster.
-I’m still on the key train. He is on a two-year leash. Needs to show the bad attitudes the door next cycle and get a experienced DC.
- I think key will learn from his mistakes. He wants this job and is damn sure doing the best he can.
 

slugboy

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One of the things I used to enjoy about the old coaches (Bear Bryant, Dodd, Bo), is how simple their game plans were. Bear’s were often on one side of a piece of paper.

The stats are that your likelihood of scoring is proportional to your starting field position. Get the ball on your own ten yard line and the likelihood of scoring is ten percent. Bear’s entire game plan was ”get to midfield”. He loved a good punt … start at the twenty, get 15 yards, punt? Dammit, ok. Longest time play in the game (7-8 second), so you get good TOP and the odds are back in your favor. Stop them, change possessions and you’re at midfield and didn’t make a mistake. He won the SEC at Kentucky running six plays on offense.

Dodd said the same. Keep the game close, win it in the fourth. Always go for an TD if inside the ten. (His stats shows GT was 50% likely to score, so 7 beats six, all day long.)

Bill P said his entire game was turnover ratio and hidden yardage. Very difficult to lose if you are +2 in turnovers and have more than 100 yds in hidden yardage. CPJ famously once said he didn’t care about defense. Just score 28 points and win TOP and it’s a W, statistically speaking.

I don’t hear that from anyone in todays game. Very few. It’s more about NIL and the portal.
I saw a stat that Iowa threw for 140 yards yesterday and punted for about 450 yards
 

Sheboygan

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Yep, that basically sums it up. Everyone today is far too worried about what they look like than they are about actually winning the damn game. This is true with style of play, uniforms, game day experience, etc. There are proven ways to win football games that no one wants to talk about anymore.
Amen, brutha !! I personally think we are HISTORICALLY BAD on defense. Is it the "Xs and Os", or the "Jimmies and Joes"? ....or BOTH ?
For some reason this team SEEMS to let up when they get a lead- thinking BG and BC specifically. Mental toughness was emphasized by Key since day one. Looking around, many teams struggle with this these days. Teams seem to get a lead and then they want to coast to a win. Coaches change play calling to preserve the win, let their foot off the gas, and can't restart the momentum when needed. Coming from behind to win is very popular right now and I think lack of focus and intensity by players and coaches is to blame.
 

stinger78

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I don’t get the feeling there is a lack of intensity on the part of coaches. I do at times by players. I think we have a talent issue on D generally, and at a few spots on O. QB is good, RB are OK but needs a bigger short-yardage guy, WR are very good, TE are serviceable, OL is an adventure.
 

slugboy

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Obviously, we need to move King to RB (not serious)

Stat lineYards/playEPA/playEPASRWPA
Dropbacks
Haynes King15/31, 204 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT, 0 Scks, 60.4 xQBR, 1.02 DETMER6.58-0.15-4.7442%6.0%
TEAM0/1, 0 yds, 0 TD, 1 INT, 0 Scks, 25.1 xQBR, 0.00 DETMER0.00-6.83-6.830%-14.0%
Rush attempts
Haynes King9 carries, 142 yds, 1 TD, 0 Fum (0 lost)15.781.049.3578%21.0%
Jamal Haynes12 carries, 56 yds, 1 TD, 1 Fum (0 lost)4.670.050.6333%-2.0%
Dontae Smith1 carry, 11 yds, 0 TD, 0 Fum (0 lost)11.000.620.62100%0.0%
Trey Cooley12 carries, 29 yds, 0 TD, 1 Fum (0 lost)2.42-0.24-2.8442%-7.0%


Strange game for us
OverallBCGT
EPA/Play0.28 89th %ile-0.06 37th %ile
Success Rate49% 83rd %ile45% 71st %ile
Yards/Play7.97 92nd %ile7.15 82nd %ile
EPA/Dropback0.18 67th %ile-0.36 15th %ile
EPA/Rush0.35 92nd %ile0.23 83rd %ile
Yards/Dropback8.82 86th %ile6.38 55th %ile
Explosive Play Rate13% 91st %ile6% 26th %ile
3rd Down Success Rate40% 47th %ile29% 16th %ile
Red Zone Success Rate50% 73rd %ile75% 93rd %ile
Def Run Stuff Rate18% 5th %ile10% 0th %ile
Havoc Rate6% 17th %ile9% 42nd %ile


We had two weeks to get ready, and so did BC. They looked better prepared.
 

BleedGoldNWhite21

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There does seem to be a locker room issue and that is a coaching problem. The one potentially good news is that locker room issues can often be fixed with some tough decisions, as others have mentioned earlier. Just have to hope Key is a guy who can make those decisions.
 

tmhunter52

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The fans didn’t give up 21 unanswered points in the 2nd half. The fans didn’t lose to Bowling Green at home by 11 points. The fans didn’t blow a 23 point lead to Louisville. The fans did actually show up pretty well today. One of the best home crowds we’ve had in a while, and we laid another egg. We’re never going to be a serious program again if we can’t win home games against equal or lesser teams to us. Yeah, the ranked road wins are great, but when you can’t carry that momentum into the next game it doesn’t help build the program up at all. We had a chance to have a solid football team this year, and we’ve pissed it all away at every opportunity we’ve gotten.

I haven’t given up on Key yet, but there have definitely been some things that leave me scratching my head and wondering wtf we’re doing, especially in regards to clock management. I love how much Key loves the Institute. I love how much his players seem to love him. But after 5 years of being a dumpster fire of a program, I’m ready to just win games again. There’s no reason why Duke has been able to become an extremely competitive program while we’re losing to Bowling Green and Boston College at home.
Maybe we should consider just playing away games for a while until we figure out the alleged home field advantage thingy.
 

Vanillalite

Georgia Tech Fan
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76
Just hire a guy who’s been a coach before and won at a decent clip not just had one random ok year aka TFG.

Tech has enough issues as it is. So do the easy thing. Get a guy who’s won at another place before with some coaching pedigree. GT ain’t Clemson and in many ways the Dabo hire was luck.

While personally Brent is a great guy and him loving the institution is great as a coach him loving the institute means f all. Getting “GT Men” as coaches is just empty platitudes. Just get guys who know how to win.

Stod as men’s bball coach has zero connection to the school. He’s also a guy who’s excelled. He excelled as a college player, stayed in the league for years, and was moving up the coaching ranks cause he was good everywhere he went. Get THAT guy for football.
 

Northeast Stinger

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Just hire a guy who’s been a coach before and won at a decent clip not just had one random ok year aka TFG.

Tech has enough issues as it is. So do the easy thing. Get a guy who’s won at another place before with some coaching pedigree. GT ain’t Clemson and in many ways the Dabo hire was luck.

While personally Brent is a great guy and him loving the institution is great as a coach him loving the institute means f all. Getting “GT Men” as coaches is just empty platitudes. Just get guys who know how to win.

Stod as men’s bball coach has zero connection to the school. He’s also a guy who’s excelled. He excelled as a college player, stayed in the league for years, and was moving up the coaching ranks cause he was good everywhere he went. Get THAT guy for football.
Please, please, please don’t jinx Stoudamire before he’s even had a chance to prove he’s the right hire.
 

Root4GT

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Just hire a guy who’s been a coach before and won at a decent clip not just had one random ok year aka TFG.

Tech has enough issues as it is. So do the easy thing. Get a guy who’s won at another place before with some coaching pedigree. GT ain’t Clemson and in many ways the Dabo hire was luck.

While personally Brent is a great guy and him loving the institution is great as a coach him loving the institute means f all. Getting “GT Men” as coaches is just empty platitudes. Just get guys who know how to win.

Stod as men’s bball coach has zero connection to the school. He’s also a guy who’s excelled. He excelled as a college player, stayed in the league for years, and was moving up the coaching ranks cause he was good everywhere he went. Get THAT guy for football.
Let’s see how the BB team plays. Clearly other is hope. Results are all that matter. No excuse for GT to suck in BB.
 

jojatk

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Just so we are clear, you're using 4 games where Key was offensive line coach and we scored 0 points as a defense for him?
Without arguing for or against Brent Key there have been plenty of offensive coordinators and defensive coordinators who have been GREAT at those jobs and been horrendously bad head coaches. My point is that it's entirely possible to be better at one job than another. I don't know if Key is going to be better as a head coach or not. But he's the guy in charge at the moment so I'm trying my best to support him and, as I have done with every head coach, trying to figure out how he can be successful and am hoping to spot reasons to think that can happen.

Negatives (not an exhaustive list):
- kept Thacker
- head scratching game management (timeouts in particular but having 10 guys on the field multiple times in a single game is just terrible)
- Very bad losses to UVA last year and BGSU this year (I am not ready to put the BC game down as a VERY bad loss like those just yet because I think they are probably pretty comparable to us)

Positives (not an exhaustive list):
- in 15 games, inheriting the team he got from Collins, he has 7 wins which is only 3 less than Collins had in 38 games (yeah I know, not a high bar to eclipse but it's a positive anyway)
- He seems to be more accountable for things and you get the feeling that he is at least TRYING to fix problems and learn from mistakes (that doesn't mean he's being successful at it but it's better than the last guy and yes, again, I admit that's not a very high bar)
- There does seem to be more discipline in the program than under TFG and usually that pays off

My hope is that we have a situation similar in some ways to when Ross took over for Curry. There were a bunch of the more experienced players who didn't seem to want to play for Ross but also stuck around and just didn't give 100% effort. I am not going to say there were malcontents or that guys purposely played poorly. Just that they weren't prepared to give it everything they had for a guy that hadn't recruited them and in an environment that was significantly more restrictive with Ross. It wasn't until Ross had enough of his own recruits in that he was able to bench some of those guys and get a some more buy-in. I started this paragraph saying it was a hope. I am only comparing Brent to Bobby in that he is more about discipline than the last guy was, not that Brent holds a candle to Bobby in terms of anything else. So again, my hope is that as more of the guys are bought in to Brent and the new coaches that we'll see some more signs of improvement.
 

slugboy

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There’s a lot to catch up on, in this and other threads.

It takes 2-3 years to rebuild a team: It took Ross that long. It took O’Leary about that much time. Coaches that do turn around a program, usually do it faster—if you don’t see something by year 2, you’re usually not going to see the turnaround happen.

Other coaches would have turned us around faster: Fritz spent years turning around Tulane. As much as I like what he’s accomplished, I don’t think he’d have come in, flipped the roster, and brought us to 8 wins in the first season. I think our odds of getting into a 6-win bowl game would be a little higher. I don’t think he loses to Bowling Green, but I don’t know that he beats Miami.
Deion Sanders and Colorado: I think we’d have the same roster Colorado has right now—the players he got wanted to play for Deion. Most of the roster was replaced, and would have been replaced here. Colorado is 4-3 right now. They have problems on defense. He’s played a hard schedule, but he’d also have a hard schedule here. He just edged out Arizona State. Our QB would be Shadeur (sp) Sanders, who has had some of the same issues that King has had. I can see us being 5-2 with Sanders, but I can also see us with the same record. HOWEVER, as of last week, Colorado was behind us in F+ and other ratings, so there’s reason to believe we might be even weaker (believe it or not).
One thing is clear—Sanders turned over the roster in year one, and he looks to be doing it again after this year.
Chadwell: He’s having a great run at Liberty, but they were already stocked, more talented than their opponents, and set up against one of the weakest schedules available. It’s tough to tell, but I think we’d be exciting on offense, but with some of the same problems.

One thing I think is different is that we’d have had more roster turnover in year one. Assuming that’s needed, the roster would have turned over faster.

Defense: We’ve been playing a 4-2-5 for years. Most teams play a 4-2-5 these days. Some play a 3-3-5. It’s what we used to call a “Nickel Defense”, or close to it. There’s no such thing as a “Front 7” in this defense—just a “Front 6”. It’s an outgrowth of competing against RPO offenses (and maybe a little against air raid).
Everyone on the defense has to go full speed, and make their reads instantly. You can’t hesitate in a 4-2-5.
We’ve had multiple defensive problems for years, especially slow reactions. We’re also losing 1:1 battles on the front 6.
(By the way, I’ve been happy with Harvey at CB)

When you have a bunch to fix, you have to pick your priorities. Lately, we’re focusing on making tackles and getting off blocks. We’re still practicing our assignments, but we seem to be more focused on making tackles. When you have a ton of problems to solve, it’s slow.
 

Northeast Stinger

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I will just put this here.

Coaches hired outside the Tech coaching tree

John Heisman
Bobby Ross
Bill Lewis
Chan Gailey
Paul Johnson
Geoff Collins

Coaches promoted from within

William Alexander
Bobby Dodd
Bud Carson
George O’Leary
Brent Key *

Coaches who were Tech men

Bill Fulcher
Pepper Rodgers
Bill Curry
Brent Key *

Note that Brent Key is the only coach to be both a Tech man and promoted from within.

I think it is safe to say the two worst coaches in Tech history were hired from without, as well as four of Tech’s best coaches.

Coaches promoted from within seem to generally be on average the strongest group of coaches.

Tech men, just based on record, are a generally mediocre group in spite of any coaching prowess.
 

Root4GT

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I’m excited about basketball too, but it has nothing to do with the FB struggles
It does not. However when a post says we went outside and got an excellent hire unlike football then it needs to be pointed out results are what count.

I am hopeful our BB team can be .500 in ACC Play this year and show signs we can become revenant again in BB.
 

Vanillalite

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
76
I’m excited about basketball too, but it has nothing to do with the FB struggles

They both are Batt’s first major hires coming of their seasons. So they are connected in that way, and the route we chose to go with each coach was vastly different.

I’m willing to agree we need to wait and see as Root said. Part of the issue is Key was a promote from within guy. So to some he’s part of the TFG legacy here at GT.
 
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