Biggest need for 2016 (offense edition)

[Skeptic]

Oh I definitely won't be holding my breath. We all know what we're gunna get with PJ. He does what he does and if you don't like it, well, get over it. This is his biggest weakness to me.

I don't want to hear, he tried new things with Vad and it didn't work. First, that offense looked a lot better than the one this year (6 ppg and 50 ypg better). Second, I've heard many good coaches and leaders along the way, when talking about making changes or transitions say that sometimes it gets worse before it gets better.

Do I want a complete overhaul of the offense? No. Would I like to be more multiple so that when we can't get something going we have other "options" to turn to? Yes. I'd also love to see us simplify the offense so that it doesn't take a team full of 4th and 5th years guys to run like it's supposed to. We have talked repeatedly over the past few years about having to simplify the defense so they can play fast. Why does this not apply to the offense?

He tried new things with Vad and it didn't work.

 

[Lee]

He tried new things with Vad and it didn't work.

How people say this with a straight face baffles me. We scored more PPG in 2013 than we have in any other year PJ has been here outside of 2014. Yes, even more than 2009 with Dwyer and Baybay. Not only that, it worked a lot better than what we saw this year. Vad was also a first year starter and had equally as bad of an offensive line.

For fun though, let's compare 2013 to 2015. Let's do this while keeping in mind that 2013 we had a 1st year starter in his 3rd year at GT while we had a second year (and more talented) starter in his 4th year at GT leading the way in 2015.

Points per game: 35.1 vs 29.2 edge 2013
Yards per game: 430.1 vs 378 edge 2013
Rushing YPG: 299.7 vs 256.7 edge 2013
Record: 7-6 (5-3) vs 3-9 (1-7) edge 2013


Almost every measurable statistic is better in 2013. We also scored 28+ points 9 times in 2013 vs 4 times in 2015. I will admit that we had a tougher schedule this year, but those numbers really aren't that close. All of this was with Vad playing scared for the 2nd half of the season. Imagine what it would've looked like if he would've fully bought in and not shied away from contact.

Nobody, well not me anyways, is calling for a complete overhaul of the system. I just happen to think it would be nice to have some wrinkles to throw at teams (outside of mixing up blocking assignments or what gap the bback is hitting) when we can't run our bread and butter. Being multiple is not a bad thing. It doesn't have to be overly difficult either. Sometimes just changing a look can be enough to slow your opponent down enough to allow a play to succeed. We can run the same plays from a shotgun or pistol set that we do from under center. I honestly think JT would be great doing some of the things PJ let Vad do and would love to see some of the speed we have now on the jet sweeps.

Disclaimer- this isn't a Vad is better than Justin post. It is merely to point out the ridiculousness of those saying that what we did in 2013 didn't work.

 

[iceeater1969]

How people say this with a straight face baffles me. We scored more PPG in 2013 than we have in any other year PJ has been here outside of 2014. Yes, even more than 2009 with Dwyer and Baybay. Not only that, it worked a lot better than what we saw this year. Vad was also a first year starter and had equally as bad of an offensive line.

For fun though, let's compare 2013 to 2015. Let's do this while keeping in mind that 2013 we had a 1st year starter in his 3rd year at GT while we had a second year (and more talented) starter in his 4th year at GT leading the way in 2015.

Points per game: 35.1 vs 29.2 edge 2013
Yards per game: 430.1 vs 378 edge 2013
Rushing YPG: 299.7 vs 256.7 edge 2013
Record: 7-6 (5-3) vs 3-9 (1-7) edge 2013


Almost every measurable statistic is better in 2013. We also scored 28+ points 9 times in 2013 vs 4 times in 2015. I will admit that we had a tougher schedule this year, but those numbers really aren't that close. All of this was with Vad playing scared for the 2nd half of the season. Imagine what it would've looked like if he would've fully bought in and not shied away from contact.

Nobody, well not me anyways, is calling for a complete overhaul of the system. I just happen to think it would be nice to have some wrinkles to throw at teams (outside of mixing up blocking assignments or what gap the bback is hitting) when we can't run our bread and butter. Being multiple is not a bad thing. It doesn't have to be overly difficult either. Sometimes just changing a look can be enough to slow your opponent down enough to allow a play to succeed. We can run the same plays from a shotgun or pistol set that we do from under center. I honestly think JT would be great doing some of the things PJ let Vad do and would love to see some of the speed we have now on the jet sweeps.

Disclaimer- this isn't a Vad is better than Justin post. It is merely to point out the ridiculousness of those saying that what we did in 2013 didn't work.

Was watching 2013 uga verses 14 &15 to see if ol lined up differently. Will report later.
But in 13 we were up 17-0 & looking good. Then...

 

[Skeptic]

How people say this with a straight face baffles me. We scored more PPG in 2013 than we have in any other year PJ has been here outside of 2014. Yes, even more than 2009 with Dwyer and Baybay. Not only that, it worked a lot better than what we saw this year. Vad was also a first year starter and had equally as bad of an offensive line.

For fun though, let's compare 2013 to 2015. Let's do this while keeping in mind that 2013 we had a 1st year starter in his 3rd year at GT while we had a second year (and more talented) starter in his 4th year at GT leading the way in 2015.

Points per game: 35.1 vs 29.2 edge 2013
Yards per game: 430.1 vs 378 edge 2013
Rushing YPG: 299.7 vs 256.7 edge 2013
Record: 7-6 (5-3) vs 3-9 (1-7) edge 2013


Almost every measurable statistic is better in 2013. We also scored 28+ points 9 times in 2013 vs 4 times in 2015. I will admit that we had a tougher schedule this year, but those numbers really aren't that close. All of this was with Vad playing scared for the 2nd half of the season. Imagine what it would've looked like if he would've fully bought in and not shied away from contact.

Nobody, well not me anyways, is calling for a complete overhaul of the system. I just happen to think it would be nice to have some wrinkles to throw at teams (outside of mixing up blocking assignments or what gap the bback is hitting) when we can't run our bread and butter. Being multiple is not a bad thing. It doesn't have to be overly difficult either. Sometimes just changing a look can be enough to slow your opponent down enough to allow a play to succeed. We can run the same plays from a shotgun or pistol set that we do from under center. I honestly think JT would be great doing some of the things PJ let Vad do and would love to see some of the speed we have now on the jet sweeps.

Disclaimer- this isn't a Vad is better than Justin post. It is merely to point out the ridiculousness of those saying that what we did in 2013 didn't work.

Arggh. You know, Lee, there are places -- football boards say -- where clever won't get it and whimsy is but a fleeting guest. Though in in the spirit of humility, perhaps I'm awful at it. A sledgehammer seems excessive, and only loonies write in all caps, red letters and exclamation points, a truism that newspapers learned long ago. Well, when newspapers were alive. (THAT'S A JOKE, LEE!) If one has to explain it then what was the point? But, see, you wrote you didn't want to read that he tried new things with Vad and it didn't work, and I wrote ... Oh, never mind. (That's from a Saturday Night Live character, but I am just guessing the show is foreign to you.)

 

[dressedcheeseside]

The joy of the off season.

 

[UgaBlows]

Just Think how many points We could have put up in '13 if Vad hadn't lost the will to run and take a hit after the UNC game?

 

[Lee]

Arggh. You know, Lee, there are places -- football boards say -- where clever won't get it and whimsy is but a fleeting guest. Though in in the spirit of humility, perhaps I'm awful at it. A sledgehammer seems excessive, and only loonies write in all caps, red letters and exclamation points, a truism that newspapers learned long ago. Well, when newspapers were alive. (THAT'S A JOKE, LEE!) If one has to explain it then what was the point? But, see, you wrote you didn't want to read that he tried new things with Vad and it didn't work, and I wrote ... Oh, never mind. (That's from a Saturday Night Live character, but I am just guessing the show is foreign to you.)

You know what's funny? After I looked up all of the stats to validate what I was writing and posted that lengthy post, I went back and read what you quoted. I quickly realized that what you said was a joke, but it was already too late. I think the issue was I wrote what you quoted almost 2 weeks ago and completely forgot I had put that line in there.

Oh well, it still allowed me to put some good stuff out there. I actually learned something too. I had no clue that 2013 was our most productive year outside of the magical 2014 season in terms of ppg.

 

[AE 87]

You know what's funny? After I looked up all of the stats to validate what I was writing and posted that lengthy post, I went back and read what you quoted. I quickly realized that what you said was a joke, but it was already too late. I think the issue was I wrote what you quoted almost 2 weeks ago and completely forgot I had put that line in there.

Oh well, it still allowed me to put some good stuff out there. I actually learned something too. I had no clue that 2013 was our most productive year outside of the magical 2014 season in terms of ppg.

Per game stats are not the right stats.

 

[Lee]

Per game stats are not the right stats.

Please tell me what stats are the correct stats. I know you created the whole ppd statistic or that you are at least a big proponent of it. I agree that is a great stat as well, but I don't have the time to calculate it nor do I know the best place to look for it.

I do know that the object of an offense is to score points and the 2013 offense did it better than any other PJ lead offense besides 2014. I also know that they scored 28+ points 9 times so the number isn't inflated by a game or two. They scored 34+ 6 times as well.

My whole point was that it is ridiculous to say what we did with Vad didn't work. Vad took that big hit in the UNC game and wasn't the same afterwards. That was our 3rd game of the year. The game before he threw 4 tds and ran for another against the team that has pretty much shut us down the past 2 years in Duke.

The offense wasn't the problem, our defense was. PJ just used our record as a reason to go back to doing what he's always done. Which worked great on a senior laden team. Not so much with young guys.

 

[AE 87]

Please tell me what stats are the correct stats. I know you created the whole ppd statistic or that you are at least a big proponent of it. I agree that is a great stat as well, but I don't have the time to calculate it nor do I know the best place to look for it.

I do know that the object of an offense is to score points and the 2013 offense did it better than any other PJ lead offense besides 2014. I also know that they scored 28+ points 9 times so the number isn't inflated by a game or two. They scored 34+ 6 times as well.

My whole point was that it is ridiculous to say what we did with Vad didn't work. Vad took that big hit in the UNC game and wasn't the same afterwards. That was our 3rd game of the year. The game before he threw 4 tds and ran for another against the team that has pretty much shut us down the past 2 years in Duke.

The offense wasn't the problem, our defense was. PJ just used our record as a reason to go back to doing what he's always done. Which worked great on a senior laden team. Not so much with young guys.

Yes. Per drive and per play stats are better. Also, I agree that our O was better than our D in 2013.

I think the biggest problem with your argument is that it seems to assume we were running from shotgun and diamond every play. We weren't. We also ran our base from under center.

I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that Vad's comp% was higher from under center that year.

2013 was our worst year in off eff outside of 2010 and 2015.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

PJ just used our record as a reason to go back to doing what he's always done. Which worked great on a senior laden team. Not so much with young guys.

When have we ever looked good with a team full of young guys?

 

[Techster]

When have we ever looked good with a team full of young guys?

2008!!!!!

(You didn't add any qualifiers, so there's your answer)

 

[Lee]

Yes. Per drive and per play stats are better. Also, I agree that our O was better than our D in 2013.

I think the biggest problem with your argument is that it seems to assume we were running from shotgun and diamond every play. We weren't. We also ran our base from under center.

I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that Vad's comp% was higher from under center that year.

2013 was our worst year in off eff outside of 2010 and 2015.

You misunderstand my argument then. I'm not calling for a complete overhaul of the offense. I like what we do under center and the trouble it causes defensive coordinators. I just think being multiple would make us harder to defend and give our qb (who was constantly running for his life) a better shot on obvious passing downs. I also think JT would be special running zone read plays.

He rides the mesh so well and it way more explosive than Vad. I think it could be a great weapon. I like some of the stuff Oregon does and the Panthers have started to do with Cam as well. Zone read with a pass option. There are a lot of things you can do from the shotgun or pistol set than you can from under center and visa versa. I'd like to see us do both.

As to your last sentence on efficiency. I think a lot of that has to do with Vad being scared of contact. I remember several times him going down early instead of putting his head down to get the extra yard we needed for a first down. JMO, but I think it's valid.

 

[iceeater1969]

We all agree that we were close in most games in 15.

In 16 assuming the defense can keep it close and get the offense the ball at end of game, we need to have several PREPLANNED three play series that we run quickly without waiting for sideline to send in a play. I dont care if under center, shotgun, trick play, or just a random play. Just get up there and run something.

 

[Lee]

When have we ever looked good with a team full of young guys?

We weren't a team full of young guys this year. We returned a bunch of starters on both sides of the ball. We were young at RB, I'll give you that but skill guys come in and play right away all over the country. We had a ton of them this year, but it didn't seem like they knew where they were going anymore in game 12 than they did in game 1.

And I never said we, or any team will look good with a bunch of young guys, but I'll take competent. This system, more than most is so complex that it is almost impossible for young guys to come in and grasp it. These kids have to be here 3-4 years to know what to do and even then they still don't fully get it (hence this year's veteran Oline). The best coaches adapt to the personnel they have and make it less complicated so they can just go compete without trying to figure out where to go all of the time. I'm not saying PJ doesn't try to do this, but if so, it's always in the framework of his offense.

 

[ATL1]

I happen to agree with @Lee on this, just cause GT ran some uncommitted pistol, diamond, & shotgun plays with Vad 2013 doesn't mean GT shouldn't run them again, EVER.

It's ridiculous that JT isn't put in the gun with his height and the OL limitations.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

We weren't a team full of young guys this year. We returned a bunch of starters on both sides of the ball. We were young at RB, I'll give you that but skill guys come in and play right away all over the country. We had a ton of them this year, but it didn't seem like they knew where they were going anymore in game 12 than they did in game 1.

And I never said we, or any team will look good with a bunch of young guys, but I'll take competent. This system, more than most is so complex that it is almost impossible for young guys to come in and grasp it. These kids have to be here 3-4 years to know what to do and even then they still don't fully get it (hence this year's veteran Oline). The best coaches adapt to the personnel they have and make it less complicated so they can just go compete without trying to figure out where to go all of the time. I'm not saying PJ doesn't try to do this, but if so, it's always in the framework of his offense.

I can't get past your first point. I'd call 7 of 11 new guys where most are true frosh as having a bunch of young guys.

 

[AE 87]

I happen to agree with @Lee on this, just cause GT ran some uncommitted pistol, diamond, & shotgun plays with Vad 2013 doesn't mean GT shouldn't run them again, EVER.

It's ridiculous that JT isn't put in the gun with his height and the OL limitations.

Imo, your post assumes that those formations would give us/him an advantage. I'm not sure it's true. That it seems logical to you or me isn't data. I also think that asking a struggling OL to do more isn't a natural response.

 

[ATL1]

Imo, your post assumes that those formations would give us/him an advantage. I'm not sure it's true. That it seems logical to you or me isn't data. I also think that asking a struggling OL to do more isn't a natural response.

Doing more or doing differently?

 

[Lee]

I can't get past your first point. I'd call 7 of 11 new guys where most are true frosh as having a bunch of young guys.

Where do you come up with that number? The only new person at the start of the year was a graduate transfer. Everyone else was either a starter the previous year, played the previous year and was in at least their 3rd year in the system.

OL- 4 returning starters and a 3rd year guy with legit playing time the previous year.
QB- 4th year guy of which people were talking about winning the Heisman
WR- 4th year and 2 year starter on one side with a 3rd year guy with playing time in the other side.
Aback- 5th year guy (and arguably our best aback the previous year) on one side and a 4th year guy on the other. 2nd year guy as number 1 backup who played well until hurt. Losing Andrews definitely hurt here.
Bback- 5th year senior, but first year in the system, 4th year guy and a true freshman.

So really only 1 new guy. Now by the time we were 2-4/2-5, we started to get a little thin.

We're there new guys in the 2 deep? Yes. By the end of the year your argument carries more weight, but we were healthy going into ND and they pantsed us. Relatively healthy against Duke and they pantsed us.