Beating UGA "Out of Reach"

bke1984

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,610
Good research and a lot of work. But by chance were you a debater in school? That is, by changing the terms, one wins. By removing all the other winners you reduce the SEC to two teams, when the more reasonable argument is that several teams in the SEC can and have won, and have for several years. Two teams in the ACC since 1990 have and could win, Miami and FSU. Save for one fling by GT 25 years ago and Virginia that I can barely recall, nobody else save VT has even been in the hunt. Surely you would not argue that the SEC's now reduced-to-two and the ACC's historical two are comparable. And look what happened to the ACC when FSU and Miami swooned. (Maybe we should throw in Notre Dame, that mugwump of a pretender that was in the playoffs two years ago, but since ND isn't willing to give up its money and its considerable national sway to actually be in the ACC, then to heck with 'em. Never liked them anyway.)

Where we wholeheartedly agree is that the whole thing is a mess, and I don't think it can be unmessed because like all political races influence and money are at play, and that if "we keep doing it" the media will notice. That was exactly Herbstreit's point. I suspect with no evidence at all to support it that most of us judge people in Herbstreit's place by what we fear we would do in the same situation. Pontificators need a stage and right now that is owned by the SEC. While last year was delightful a whole new season is careening toward us, so let's talk in four months and see were we are. I hope for the best, beginning first with GT and then to worry about the rest of the league.

It really wasn't all that much work. Most of it was recollection with research from one wiki page. Not sure what you're saying about changing the terms. My point is that it's a bit unfair to crown the SEC as this amazing conference. There are 14 teams in the SEC, four of which won NC's during that time, most coming from two teams. The claim that I often hear is that the SEC is so much better top-to-bottom than the other conferences. I don't believe this to be true. I think that during that time span they had a couple teams at the top (Florida and Alabama) that were far above everyone else in the country, while the rest of the conference was pretty much on par with all of the other conferences. However, that hasn't stopped fans of Tennessee, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Ole Miss, and Mississippi State from claiming that they're among the nation's elite.

This year was a perfect example. The conference beats up on itself and everyone assumes that it's amazing top-to-bottom. The reality was that there were a bunch of overrated teams that dropped like flies during bowl season.

But hell...that must have been a fluke. Let's just put all those teams back in the top 15 to start the season...
 

Vespid

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
320
Good research and a lot of work. But by chance were you a debater in school? That is, by changing the terms, one wins. By removing all the other winners you reduce the SEC to two teams, when the more reasonable argument is that several teams in the SEC can and have won, and have for several years. Two teams in the ACC since 1990 have and could win, Miami and FSU. Save for one fling by GT 25 years ago and Virginia that I can barely recall, nobody else save VT has even been in the hunt. Surely you would not argue that the SEC's now reduced-to-two and the ACC's historical two are comparable. And look what happened to the ACC when FSU and Miami swooned. (Maybe we should throw in Notre Dame, that mugwump of a pretender that was in the playoffs two years ago, but since ND isn't willing to give up its money and its considerable national sway to actually be in the ACC, then to heck with 'em. Never liked them anyway.)

Where we wholeheartedly agree is that the whole thing is a mess, and I don't think it can be unmessed because like all political races influence and money are at play, and that if "we keep doing it" the media will notice. That was exactly Herbstreit's point. I suspect with no evidence at all to support it that most of us judge people in Herbstreit's place by what we fear we would do in the same situation. Pontificators need a stage and right now that is owned by the SEC. While last year was delightful a whole new season is careening toward us, so let's talk in four months and see were we are. I hope for the best, beginning first with GT and then to worry about the rest of the league.


I agree it has been a mess, however, I think looking forward, the playoff will be a much better equalizer than what we have had against the "dominant" SEC. I think we are headed in the right direction to un-mess it. Just look at last year, without a play-off, I think the SEC would have inked another title because the perception train would have probably pitted Alabama against FSU. (IMHO, FSU would have gotten in as an undefeated defending national champ in the old system and subsequently lost to bammer. Regardless, I think we would have seen the same result if it had been the Ducks vs Pachyderms)

The cards have been stacked heavily in the SEC's favor during the BCS era. I'll just present the absurdity of the 2011 season rematch between LSU and Bamma as axiom for that situation....nuff said. I'm not saying the SEC as a whole, overall, hasn't been the best over the last 25 years. They were and almost any logical comparison you care to reference, points to that conclusion. However, the chasm between the best and the rest is not nearly as wide as the pundits proclaim. And that chasm, however wide in perception AND reality, is going to shrink in the landscape of a P5 system and 4 team play-off. I was in the camp of an 8 team play-off, but I'm starting to lean towards the 4 team model as the best mechanism to knock the SEC off their perch. I think last year showed the committees' high value on being a conference champ. Because of this, I think it will be very very difficult for the SEC to get two participants in the round of four. Not saying it can't happen, just that odds will be against it. And when they have to actually play the best of the rest, on a neutral field, it's probable the SEC will not be winning national championships at a 56% clip like they were in the BCS era. When that happens, and as time passes, perceptions will change, and the worm will turn. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,186
I'll just present the absurdity of the 2011 season rematch between LSU and Bamma as axiom for that situation....nuff said.
Exhibit A for sure.
And when they have to actually play the best of the rest, on a neutral field, it's probable the SEC will not be winning national championships at a 56% clip like they were in the BCS era.
Finding a neutral field for an SEC team will be the next big hurdle.

I still like the idea of a 6 team playoff. Pick four conference champions and have two at large play-in teams.
 

Skeptic

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,372
Exhibit A for sure.

Finding a neutral field for an SEC team will be the next big hurdle.

I still like the idea of a 6 team playoff. Pick four conference champions and have two at large play-in teams.
I'm slow so be patient: by "at large play-in" teams I infer that the only conference representatives in your six team field would be the champions, regardless of the caliber and quality of the runnersup? So that in theory -- again I am inferring so feel free -- a team that was 13-1 in the regular season/conference championship game is out in favor of the 10-2 play-in teams? Or for that matter an 11-1 play-in, and that once a team failed to win the conference, it's yesterday's junk mail? Or am I not understanding?
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,186
I'm slow so be patient: by "at large play-in" teams I infer that the only conference representatives in your six team field would be the champions, regardless of the caliber and quality of the runnersup? So that in theory -- again I am inferring so feel free -- a team that was 13-1 in the regular season/conference championship game is out in favor of the 10-2 play-in teams? Or for that matter an 11-1 play-in, and that once a team failed to win the conference, it's yesterday's junk mail? Or am I not understanding?
It works the same way the current system works in that you have a committee who choose the top six teams. The teams are divided into two divisions with a number one seed. Number one seeds have to be conference champions. Number two seeds have to be conference champions. Number three seeds are the two remaining teams that the committee deems the best number 5 and 6 team in the country, regardless of conference affiliation or championship status.

The number one seed in each division gets a first round bye. The number two team in each division plays the three seed, who have to "play in." Winners of the play in game in each division then play the number one seed. The eventual winners in each division play each other for the championship.

Because of the way the committee chose the teams last year a six team playoff would have looked like this:

Alabama and Oregon get a first round bye.
Florida State plays Baylor and Ohio State plays TCU for the play-in.
Winner of FSU and Baylor plays Alabama.
Winner of Ohio State and TCU plays Oregon.
Winner of FSU, Baylor and Alabama plays winner of Ohio State, TCU and Oregon.

Not perfect but it would have put all of the one loss or no loss teams in the playoffs.
 

Skeptic

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,372
It works the same way the current system works in that you have a committee who choose the top six teams. The teams are divided into two divisions with a number one seed. Number one seeds have to be conference champions. Number two seeds have to be conference champions. Number three seeds are the two remaining teams that the committee deems the best number 5 and 6 team in the country, regardless of conference affiliation or championship status.

The number one seed in each division gets a first round bye. The number two team in each division plays the three seed, who have to "play in." Winners of the play in game in each division then play the number one seed. The eventual winners in each division play each other for the championship.

Because of the way the committee chose the teams last year a six team playoff would have looked like this:

Alabama and Oregon get a first round bye.
Florida State plays Baylor and Ohio State plays TCU for the play-in.
Winner of FSU and Baylor plays Alabama.
Winner of Ohio State and TCU plays Oregon.
Winner of FSU, Baylor and Alabama plays winner of Ohio State, TCU and Oregon.

Not perfect but it would have put all of the one loss or no loss teams in the playoffs.
Okay, now I got it. Thanks.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,186
Playoffs eventually have to get to 8 teams 4 games. Anything less is a bit absurd and anything more is too unwieldy IMO.
The advantage of 8 teams is that is does take a little bit of the politics out of it since in a six team playoff you still have to choose two teams to get a bye. In the past I would have been fine with a bye because it seems just to me that a team that has earned a top seeding by beating everyone during the season should not have to jump through too many hoops to play for a championship. At least that is the principle in the NCAA basketball tournament. Likewise, a team that limps into the playoff ought to have to take a more difficult route to prove itself.

But when the committee anointed Alabama number one just because they were from the SEC and almost bumped an undefeated FSU team out of the playoffs because they were from the ACC, I realized that picking the top seeds in a playoff still has a chance to be very political. So a six team playoff has that one disadvantage.

The counter argument is that an 8 team playoff might give the committee more opportunities to stack the playoff with SEC teams. This past year would not have been too bad since the 7 and 8 teams would have been Mississippi State and Michigan State.

I could be persuaded to either 6 or 8. I am very dubious that a 4 team playoff is the ultimate solution.
 

GTHOSCHTON

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
177
it will go to eight soon ............ why you ask....simple mo money for TV and the conferences.............. longer engagement with more teams and fans........... just think if you are the number 11 team in the country you still have a shot depending on who is playing who............. sounds like fun to me!!!!!!!
 

PBR549

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
837
The advantage of 8 teams is that is does take a little bit of the politics out of it since in a six team playoff you still have to choose two teams to get a bye. In the past I would have been fine with a bye because it seems just to me that a team that has earned a top seeding by beating everyone during the season should not have to jump through too many hoops to play for a championship. At least that is the principle in the NCAA basketball tournament. Likewise, a team that limps into the playoff ought to have to take a more difficult route to prove itself.

But when the committee anointed Alabama number one just because they were from the SEC and almost bumped an undefeated FSU team out of the playoffs because they were from the ACC, I realized that picking the top seeds in a playoff still has a chance to be very political. So a six team playoff has that one disadvantage.

The counter argument is that an 8 team playoff might give the committee more opportunities to stack the playoff with SEC teams. This past year would not have been too bad since the 7 and 8 teams would have been Mississippi State and Michigan State.

I could be persuaded to either 6 or 8. I am very dubious that a 4 team playoff is the ultimate solution.
I definitely like the 8 team playoff much better. Still too much opportunity for a 6 team playoff to be manipulated. I give the committee the last 3 slots to hopefully put the most qualified non champions in. If they stack it with SEC teams I still think we will have a better chance of getting a true champion. The tournament configuration and locations should change every year to make it as fair as possible from year to year.
 

Skeptic

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,372
The advantage of 8 teams is that is does take a little bit of the politics out of it since in a six team playoff you still have to choose two teams to get a bye. In the past I would have been fine with a bye because it seems just to me that a team that has earned a top seeding by beating everyone during the season should not have to jump through too many hoops to play for a championship. At least that is the principle in the NCAA basketball tournament. Likewise, a team that limps into the playoff ought to have to take a more difficult route to prove itself.

But when the committee anointed Alabama number one just because they were from the SEC and almost bumped an undefeated FSU team out of the playoffs because they were from the ACC, I realized that picking the top seeds in a playoff still has a chance to be very political. So a six team playoff has that one disadvantage.

The counter argument is that an 8 team playoff might give the committee more opportunities to stack the playoff with SEC teams. This past year would not have been too bad since the 7 and 8 teams would have been Mississippi State and Michigan State.

I could be persuaded to either 6 or 8. I am very dubious that a 4 team playoff is the ultimate solution.
Four teams chosen subjectively -- and therefore invariably political as you note -- ain't it. I once unwillingly sat on a panel to choose a regional public teacher of the year, in a slot set aside to bring an outside, objective view of the profession. The first two rounds in this all-day affair were exemplary, and for a bit I regretted my reluctance. Then came the last round. The gloves came off. The knives came out. Blood was spilled. Rank partisanship erupted. There I sat, being objective, Neither of my choices got a second look. In about as mean infighting as you can imagine they got a winner. I am sure she was a good teacher, and that her students loved her to pieces, but just kind of figured that teacher of the year ought know the King's English. Boy, did I get a lesson in back-room, closed door politics. It is one reason I wondered about Condoleezza Rice being on that panel. Nothing to do with football knowledge, but she got steamrolled in a presidential administration and that did not bode well once the door was locked. That, and Alabama was a "safe" choice.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,186
Four teams chosen subjectively -- and therefore invariably political as you note -- ain't it. I once unwillingly sat on a panel to choose a regional public teacher of the year, in a slot set aside to bring an outside, objective view of the profession. The first two rounds in this all-day affair were exemplary, and for a bit I regretted my reluctance. Then came the last round. The gloves came off. The knives came out. Blood was spilled. Rank partisanship erupted. There I sat, being objective, Neither of my choices got a second look. In about as mean infighting as you can imagine they got a winner. I am sure she was a good teacher, and that her students loved her to pieces, but just kind of figured that teacher of the year ought know the King's English. Boy, did I get a lesson in back-room, closed door politics. It is one reason I wondered about Condoleezza Rice being on that panel. Nothing to do with football knowledge, but she got steamrolled in a presidential administration and that did not bode well once the door was locked. That, and Alabama was a "safe" choice.
Spoken like a man who has been there.
And yeah, I am not a fan of Ms. Rice. I will leave it at that.
 

ClydeBrick

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
962
As long as there are only 4 playoff spots, the finalists will have to be conference champions - regardless of how that champion was chosen (looking at you B12). It also makes the conference championship games the de facto first round which would then include 9 teams (with the B12 Champion's regular season resume having to speak louder than the CCG from the other four conferences). At the end of the day, how can any team figure into the final four, if they did not win their conference? An independent would have to have an great season with an excellent SOS (determined at the end of the season - not where their opponents were ranked when they played) to get a sniff.

IMO, the current setup cannot last long. With five "power" conferences and four spots one conference has to be left out each year. Without more inter-conference play during the season, there is no objective way to discount an entire conference. Not to mention pissing off the fan base of 20% of the schools in the P5.

What happens if ND goes 11-1 this season? Which two conference champions would be "out"?

Let there be a season where there are five undefeated P5 champions.

Wait until some super-star gets a career ending injury because a coach is running up the score in garbage time so his team wins "better".


May personal favorite 2015 doomsday scenario:
13-0 GT
12-0 TCU
11-1 ND
11-2 Bama
11-2 tOSU
11-2 USCw

I'd pay good money to be in the room with the SEleCtion Committee when they are choosing four of those six! :devil::jawdrop::ROFLMAO:
 
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