Attrition and Scholarship Limits

[LibertyTurns]

After giving this idea of four year scholarships a thought, I would like to offer the following compromise:

Each school can only recruit 22 players each year and can have a total of 88 kids on scholarship at any time. Scholarships are for four years. Once signed, they are binding for both the school and the athlete. If a player gets hurt and can't play anymore; he counts against your scholarship limit for four years. You kick him off the team for misconduct; he counts against your scholarship limit for four years. He quits his freshman year; he counts against your scholarship limit for four years.

Just to clarify, if he quits or the school kicks him off for misconduct, the school would not have to honor the scholarship, but he would still count against your scholarship limit for the four years after he signs.

Once a player signs, HE CAN NEVER PLAY ANY SPORT FOR ANY OTHER D-1 SCHOOL. There would be no transfers granted for any reason. Mom gets sick back home - too bad. You miss your girlfriend who is 500 miles away - tough. He can transfer to whatever school he wants, but it will only be to pursue academic opportunities. And he will still count against his previous school's scholarship limit.

This kind of rule would be fantastic.

 

[TheSilasSonRising]

Tech hasn’t undersigned that I recall. Maybe there have been some years where a full class wasn’t signed with the plan of awarding a deserving walkon but I’m not certain.

Sign the number you know on signing day you have room for. If someone gets a medical, kicked off the team, transfers, etc....you might have 84 instead of 85. That’s the downside here.

The downside of over signing? Very real potential to screw a SA because.....maybe....attrition will happen. It’s an unpalatable risk for some. For others winning matters more than screwing a SA over due to talent.

I believe, although I have no stats at my fingertips , that the last 2 regimes have Undersigned way more often than Oversigning.

Not saying that was necessarily bad because there is no reason to give a ship to a player that can not help us. That is part of the coaches job to make that call.

But the dynamic has changed. We have a staff now that wants GT to win at the highest level and they will, without excuse go after S/As to accomplish that.

The problem will become not having enough ships instead of too many, but this AD and staff know how to handle it.

But as many have said, it will not end up being a problem. When I was at GT a player gave up his ship and quit playing because he became President of his Fraternity. I knew another player that quit because he wanted to go back home to south Ga and marry his h.s. sweetheart. Their choices.

And, as someone else said, it seems as if it has been players leaving GT with the short end of the stick lately - not the other way around.

And I have yet to meet anyone that objected when Cremins told kids they would be better off elsewhere.

And some may not like it, but there are S/As that might rather be told they have a better chance playing at gsu, ksu, or Indiana state than staying at GT. And just because some here think they would be better staying here, their love for one last chance to play the game they have put so much into may mean more to them right now.

Not for anyone here to judge them otherwise.

We had one such young man leave GT for a "lesser" school and he became Secretary of the Army. Not bad.

 

[Animal02]

It would if you got the right lawyers to write the contracts. As long as no one is forcing either party into the contract, there should be no legal reason as to why they wouldn't be legal.

No one says these players have to go to school and play football. No one says GT has to give scholarships to football players. These are privileges, not rights.

Nope.....you would lose in a heartbeat.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Interestingly, it doesn't matter that you're adverse to that risk. You don't get to make that call or even have input into that call. Why all of this hand-wringing? The coaches are going to do what they think is appropriate and ethical. Once they do something you think is unethical, then you can jump up and down and scream and holler. Until then, this is just hypothetical arm wrestling.

This is a message board in the off season. What do you expect?

 

[forensicbuzz]

So to sum up. You have an opinion about my opinion...you don’t have any say in my opinion, why all your hand wringing? I’m going to say what I want to say and will continue to do so particularly if I perceive something unethical is occurring. So you can jump up and down and scream and holler a differing opinion....or not.

Oh, I have an opinion. I've contributed to the thread. But what I'm saying is that you're arguing against something that hasn't happened yet, and has never happened to our knowledge here at Georgia Tech. Why not save your anxiety and energy for something you can actually affect? I don't have a problem with your position, at all. I too will have a problem if we cut scholarship kids to make room for new recruits. I just think it's premature to get up in arms about it right now. Nothing unethical has happened yet.

 

[stech81]

I just think it's premature to get up in arms about it right now. Nothing unethical has happened yet.

It would really help me if you could explain this to my wife I get in trouble before I do anything.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

No, I do not believe schools should be selling one year deals and I am not for that either. But why shouldn't a coaching staff evaluate where a player is after three years? In this day and age with so many kids getting college credit in high school, many of these players can and do get a degree in three years.

You can't have it both ways. Either schools and kids honor 4 year scholarships or neither one does. But graduate players leaving early is not an even give and take. More often than not, they are a benefit to the player, and a detriment to GT. No one is promising players graduate degrees. We promise players a four year education. If they graduate early, I am fairly certain they can pursue a second bachelor's degree or get a minor and still honor their four year commitment. Again, if GT should be held to certain standard, then why shouldn't the players?

How valuable is a minor or 2nd bachelor and do you really think it makes sense to peruse that for football? I don’t think it’s particularly valuable in most cases.

Agree to disagree about Graduate students also.

There seems to be a little “Didn’t come to play school” mentality creeping in here.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Oh, I have an opinion. I've contributed to the thread. But what I'm saying is that you're arguing against something that hasn't happened yet, and has never happened to our knowledge here at Georgia Tech. Why not save your anxiety and energy for something you can actually affect? I don't have a problem with your position, at all. I too will have a problem if we cut scholarship kids to make room for new recruits. I just think it's premature to get up in arms about it right now. Nothing unethical has happened yet.

Not up in arms. Discussing a matter that is actually occurring and time will tell if it works out or goes south. We over signed. That has happened. It creates risk rather unnecessarily in my opinion. We have a walk on kicker that is deserving if we happened to have an extra scholly hanging around. He’s probably not the only one.

 

[91Wreck]

How valuable is a minor or 2nd bachelor and do you really think it makes sense to peruse that for football? I don’t think it’s particularly valuable in most cases.

Agree to disagree about Graduate students also.

There seems to be a little “Didn’t come to play school” mentality creeping in here.

A minor or a second bachelors isn't nearly as valuable as a graduate degree. But make no mistake, a second bachelors or adding a minor does have value. Any employer would be impressed with those additions on a resume.

But that isnt my point. My point is that the the SA should be expected to honor a 4 year commitment if the school is expected to do the same.

And honestly, how many SA's have been turned down for grad school vs the number that have left for greener pastures?



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[Animal02]

How valuable is a minor or 2nd bachelor and do you really think it makes sense to peruse that for football? I don’t think it’s particularly valuable in most cases.

Agree to disagree about Graduate students also.

There seems to be a little “Didn’t come to play school” mentality creeping in here.

Yep..the purpose of the scolly is for the SA to get a degree, not to be held hostage for 4-5 years.

 

[iceeater1969]

He answered the question. Just not in your “going

just like this post.....round and round and makes no sense

No one is making you jump on.

I think Brent key will have way less attrition than sewak . Thats s a hint for Brad.

When a father of one of the ol saw how sewak recently treated a long time senior starter he said "if it doesn't work out for my son at least he will get a good education"

You keep holding cgc in year .5 to such a high standard during an offense make over while excusing sewak under """utilization""" of senior talent. 26 in 2 years were attrited out of gt.


I hope the last benched senior gt ol grad gets his chance w a private NFL try out .
He maxed out at pro day - more BP than almost all og at combine, but since he was benched in senior I imagine the NFL has questions.




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[dressedcheeseside]

I think Brent key will have way less attrition than sewak . Thats s a hint for Brad.

When a father of one of the ol saw how sewak recently treated a long time senior starter he said "if it doesn't work out for my son at least he will get a good education"

You keep holding cgc in year .5 to such a high standard during an offense make over while excusing sewak under """utilization""" of senior talent. 26 in 2 years were attrited out of gt.


I hope the last benched senior gt ol grad gets his chance w a private NFL try out .
He maxed out at pro day - more BP than almost all og at combine, but since he was benched in senior I imagine the NFL has questions.




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.

If you keep repeating that 26 number in every single post I bet you somebody might remember it. How many of those 26 were told their scholarships would not be renewed? I agree that number is usually high, but strange things happen on rare occasion to all programs. To better understand your point, can you list all 26 players and the reason they left the program? It seems to me you are suggesting Coach Johnson “processed” players like Saben.

As far as Will Brian goes, I always liked him and his absence from the field was a big head scratcher for me and likely everybody here. If he’s worthy of an NFL contract he’ll get one. NFL scouts get paid their money for a reason. They trust their own eyes and instincts. Just ask the guy who found Tom Brady.

 

[91Wreck]

Yep..the purpose of the scolly is for the SA to get a degree, not to be held hostage for 4-5 years.

No one is holding anyone hostage. Just asking the SA to make the same commitment to GT that you want GT to make to the SA. No one is forcing kids to come to GT and play football. They come here because they believe it is a great opportunity for them.

And (as I have stated before in this thread) I am ok with students transferring or leaving early for the NFL when it is in their best interest (especially grad students like Braun). But if you and I agree that is ok, then we both should be ok with the football program making roster decisions (especially with kids that have been here 3 or four years) that are in its best interest.

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[YJMD]

I believe, although I have no stats at my fingertips , that the last 2 regimes have Undersigned way more often than Oversigning.

Not saying that was necessarily bad because there is no reason to give a ship to a player that can not help us. That is part of the coaches job to make that call.

But the dynamic has changed. We have a staff now that wants GT to win at the highest level and they will, without excuse go after S/As to accomplish that.

The problem will become not having enough ships instead of too many, but this AD and staff know how to handle it.

But as many have said, it will not end up being a problem. When I was at GT a player gave up his ship and quit playing because he became President of his Fraternity. I knew another player that quit because he wanted to go back home to south Ga and marry his h.s. sweetheart. Their choices.

And, as someone else said, it seems as if it has been players leaving GT with the short end of the stick lately - not the other way around.

And I have yet to meet anyone that objected when Cremins told kids they would be better off elsewhere.

And some may not like it, but there are S/As that might rather be told they have a better chance playing at gsu, ksu, or Indiana state than staying at GT. And just because some here think they would be better staying here, their love for one last chance to play the game they have put so much into may mean more to them right now.

Not for anyone here to judge them otherwise.

We had one such young man leave GT for a "lesser" school and he became Secretary of the Army. Not bad.

No doubt that, for a variety of reasons and for priorities different for ever player, some will be better off elsewhere or in a different walk of life. As long as we are doing our best to help them figure that out and not denying anyone an opportunity to stick with the team, I am happy.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

No one is holding anyone hostage. Just asking the SA to make the same commitment to GT that you want GT to make to the SA. No one is forcing kids to come to GT and play football. They come here because they believe it is a great opportunity for them.

And (as I have stated before in this thread) I am ok with students transferring or leaving early for the NFL when it is in their best interest (especially grad students like Braun). But if you and I agree that is ok, then we both should be ok with the football program making roster decisions (especially with kids that have been here 3 or four years) that are in its best interest.

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If this proposal were to be equitable, then the scholarship would have to be vacant for a season, since the SA's have to sit out a season when transferring.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Not up in arms. Discussing a matter that is actually occurring and time will tell if it works out or goes south. We over signed. That has happened. It creates risk rather unnecessarily in my opinion. We have a walk on kicker that is deserving if we happened to have an extra scholly hanging around. He’s probably not the only one.

That's just it. You're an outsider. So am I. Neither of us have any inkling of the discussions CGC has had with the current players. We have no idea what he already knows and doesn't know. We're projecting our outsider perceptions onto a situation that may not be a reality. Until it becomes a reality, discussion is fine. But I get the distinct impression you're feeling great angst regarding the situation. Maybe my perception is wrong and I'm projecting onto you, but that's what I feel reading your posts.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

A minor or a second bachelors isn't nearly as valuable as a graduate degree. But make no mistake, a second bachelors or adding a minor does have value. Any employer would be impressed with those additions on a resume.

But that isnt my point. My point is that the the SA should be expected to honor a 4 year commitment if the school is expected to do the same.

And honestly, how many SA's have been turned down for grad school vs the number that have left for greener pastures?



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The school and the SA both have certain obligations and NCAA rules governing each. So there is some requirements for each to honor their commitments to one another. Changing those is a discussion probably worthy of a separate thread but the NCAA has been moving in a direction more favorable to the SAs rather than the schools of late.

But my point is there are established parameters already. Furthermore programs are making sales pitches and promises to kids and their families in recruiting. Those promises should be followed through on. And if you think Tech can sale renewable one year scholarships while factories are selling a full 4-5 year ride, and compete with the factories while doing so.....I call that a foolish notion.

I don’t know the exact numbers of grad students turned down in the last few years but I know it has happened. So long as that possibility exists and the schools have the freedom to deny admission, all grad students should be free to transfer. It’s about equal opportunity not equal outcomes. That is fairness.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

That's just it. You're an outsider. So am I. Neither of us have any inkling of the discussions CGC has had with the current players. We have no idea what he already knows and doesn't know. We're projecting our outsider perceptions onto a situation that may not be a reality. Until it becomes a reality, discussion is fine. But I get the distinct impression you're feeling great angst regarding the situation. Maybe my perception is wrong and I'm projecting onto you, but that's what I feel reading your posts.

Initially, this thread was posited under a hypothetical:

I know people say we will have a few leave after the spring game, but the players seem to be happy so what happens if we stay over the 85 rule ?

I still haven't found a good answer in these 30+ pages to the question posed by the OP.

As you and others have said, we are outsiders, we have no reason to doubt CGCs integrity or ethics, and we have an AD with a vested interest in keeping GTs integrity intact. To see some of the willingness to throw an athlete under the bus due to performance is disheartening, however, and draws an emotional response from some.

Most likely we won't have an issue by the time summer rolls around.

 

[iceeater1969]

If you keep repeating that 26 number in every single post I bet you somebody might remember it. How many of those 26 were told their scholarships would not be renewed? I agree that number is usually high, but strange things happen on rare occasion to all programs. To better understand your point, can you list all 26 players and the reason they left the program? It seems to me you are suggesting Coach Johnson “processed” players like Saben.

As far as Will Brian goes, I always liked him and his absence from the field was a big head scratcher for me and likely everybody here. If he’s worthy of an NFL contract he’ll get one. NFL scouts get paid their money for a reason. They trust their own eyes and instincts. Just ask the guy who found Tom Brady.

So u say a gt SA can play his guts out thru injuries for 4 years and coach has no obligation to help player get a try out. All it takes is for scouts to have slightest doubt and they move on. Your example of Brady does not address the slight doubt issue. Coach used to say it about our STARS (mega tron -- to shaq) the scouts will find u. The slight doubt issue and NFL scouts a better example would be Dan Marino. He was all world in junior year but dropped off in senior year. That last year and multiple rumors about drug use abused him to drop to 6th an in draft. At bottom all it takes is small thing to get u looked at or passed over
An example of bottom is byron bell (og) whose college coach called the Panthers who then gave him a try out. Bb has had a good career and is currently recovering from foot injury.


So u at least said 26 leaving early in 16& 17 seemed like a big number. That's great news .

How bout 24 in 10 & 11 and 21 in 14 & 15.?
In 14,15,16,17 we had 47 SA leave early.
(Iic I posted those number earlier. ) The normal recruitment class is 21. That's about 12 per year.

Please don't go off on the motive trail. Imo, recently we have been high and some could have been avoided. Coaches did there best, but some times coach and player cant reach resolution . THIS IS NOT ALA esq. It just happens.

With our issues recruiting- and w the complex scheme attrition needed to be minimized .


NOW MORE NUMBERS
In 18 & 19 we have had (4+2) 6 leave. In this years senior class there are only 14 .

If we attrite 10 more players this year, we will be on the average of years 14-17.

47 waddled away in 2014 to 2017.

Please give cgc a little slack this year. Brad Morgan.


Back to names
Rock Yu sin (sic) played for cgc at Temple.
Here just before NFL draft Cgc is saying - Rock is at top of players he has ever coached .

 

[dressedcheeseside]

So u say a gt SA can play his guts out thru injuries for 4 years and coach has no obligation to help player get a try out. All it takes is for scouts to have slightest doubt and they move on. Your example of Brady does not address the slight doubt issue. Coach used to say it about our STARS (mega tron -- to shaq) the scouts will find u. The slight doubt issue and NFL scouts a better example would be Dan Marino. He was all world in junior year but dropped off in senior year. That last year and multiple rumors about drug use abused him to drop to 6th an in draft. At bottom all it takes is small thing to get u looked at or passed over
An example of bottom is byron bell (og) whose college coach called the Panthers who then gave him a try out. Bb has had a good career and is currently recovering from foot injury.


So u at least said 26 leaving early in 16& 17 seemed like a big number. That's great news .

How bout 24 in 10 & 11 and 21 in 14 & 15.?
In 14,15,16,17 we had 47 SA leave early.
(Iic I posted those number earlier. ) The normal recruitment class is 21. That's about 12 per year.

Please don't go off on the motive trail. Imo, recently we have been high and some could have been avoided. Coaches did there best, but some times coach and player cant reach resolution . THIS IS NOT ALA esq. It just happens.

With our issues recruiting- and w the complex scheme attrition needed to be minimized .


NOW MORE NUMBERS
In 18 & 19 we have had (4+2) 6 leave. In this years senior class there are only 14 .

If we attrite 10 more players this year, we will be on the average of years 14-17.

47 waddled away in 2014 to 2017.

Please give cgc a little slack this year. Brad Morgan.


Back to names
Rock Yu sin (sic) played for cgc at Temple.
Here just before NFL draft Cgc is saying - Rock is at top of players he has ever coached .

I appreciate all of the data you put forth, but I don’t see a conclusion. What do you make of all that?