Attrition and Scholarship Limits

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
Messages
9,628
I appreciate all of the data you put forth, but I don’t see a conclusion. What do you make of all that?


It's very simple
The average number of attritions between 14 and 17 is 12. That's a number fact. No opinion.


As I have said dont go into motive.

THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO SAY
In your opinion can we have that number of attritions in first year of cgc?
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,212
It's very simple
The average number of attritions between 14 and 17 is 12. That's a number fact. No opinion.


As I have said dont go into motive.

THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO SAY
In your opinion can we have that number of attritions in first year of cgc?
I have always believed GT needed low attrition to be successful. We don’t have the luxury of reloading with field ready freshmen like the factories. Then again, we had the ‘14 and ‘16 seasons in the midst of the attrition deluge you so aptly described.

So what do I conclude from that? I’d say a specific kind of attrition matters most. As long as you still have a stud at QB, one or two great OL’s, a good running back and one good wide receiver, you’re good. Take any of those pieces out the puzzle and you’re not good.

As far as defence goes, you need at least one good pass rusher on the defensive line as well as one good run stuffer. You also need at least one really good linebacker and one really good DB.
 

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
Messages
9,628
I have always believed GT needed low attrition to be successful. We don’t have the luxury of reloading with field ready freshmen like the factories. Then again, we had the ‘14 and ‘16 seasons in the midst of the attrition deluge you so aptly described.

So what do I conclude from that? I’d say a specific kind of attrition matters most. As long as you still have a stud at QB, one or two great OL’s, a good running back and one good wide receiver, you’re good. Take any of those pieces out the puzzle and you’re not good.

As far as defence goes, you need at least one good pass rusher on the defensive line as well as one good run stuffer. You also need at least one really good linebacker and one really good DB.
I assume u are working on a number.

It's really simple

CPJ had 12 leave per year 2014-17.

Assuming equal moral behavior what's your acceptable number for 2019 under cgc?
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,212
I assume u are working on a number.

It's really simple

CPJ had 12 leave per year 2014-17.

Assuming equal moral behavior what's your acceptable number for 2019 under cgc?
I have no number. The reasons for the attrition is what I’m interested in. If the reasons are acceptable, I’m fine with just about any number. If he forces one guy out who wants to stay... no bueno.
 

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
Messages
9,628
I have no number. The reasons for the attrition is what I’m interested in. If the reasons are acceptable, I’m fine with just about any number. If he forces one guy out who wants to stay... no bueno.
Bingo .
There is your answer.
47 in 4 years can leave if not one was forced out. (Forced out as u define it. ).


Do u think it happens like on a certain day we have them count off on a certain day then 7 th one is rounded up and forced .

A story
I can heae you as the head coach or as a boss saying -gentlemen, I have gathered you here for an important meeting - please look 3 to your left. Now look 3 to your right . Next year u or one of those to your left or right will be gone. Gentlemen - in 4 years over half of u will be gone.
Even though this will happen, I declare none of you will be forced out if you dont want to leave. If u leave early it's not anything to do w me or my assistant- kind of like those pesky missed assignment.


My answer - 6 but if they occur in one position group on regular basis that leader will report plan for improvement. Fail to improve retention and u will be forced out.

I will make the attrition graph of last 15 years so we can clearly see if we continue on this level u find acceptable. and we will .

Brad Morgan .












How does that work out -

Have u
12 men every year can leave early and you dont see.

Whiskey is trying to deflect to theoretical over oversignng. I love his talk down - how many are ok w you??

Have you great lovers of gt ath
 

Whiskey_Clear

Banned
Messages
10,486
Bingo .
There is your answer.
47 in 4 years can leave if not one was forced out. (Forced out as u define it. ).


Do u think it happens like on a certain day we have them count off on a certain day then 7 th one is rounded up and forced .

A story
I can heae you as the head coach or as a boss saying -gentlemen, I have gathered you here for an important meeting - please look 3 to your left. Now look 3 to your right . Next year u or one of those to your left or right will be gone. Gentlemen - in 4 years over half of u will be gone.
Even though this will happen, I declare none of you will be forced out if you dont want to leave. If u leave early it's not anything to do w me or my assistant- kind of like those pesky missed assignment.


My answer - 6 but if they occur in one position group on regular basis that leader will report plan for improvement. Fail to improve retention and u will be forced out.

I will make the attrition graph of last 15 years so we can clearly see if we continue on this level u find acceptable. and we will .

Brad Morgan .












How does that work out -

Have u
12 men every year can leave early and you dont see.

Whiskey is trying to deflect to theoretical over oversignng. I love his talk down - how many are ok w you??

Have you great lovers of gt ath

You keep comparing apples to oranges. Integrity obviously means less to you than winning. But your philosophy applied would actually kill recruiting long term.

I think I’ve made it pretty clear I oppose over signing. When done the coach doing so should be certain of his true numbers. I assume CGC is certain of his. If he miscalculates there will be some possible backlash.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,212
This thread should be titled simply: Oversigning, are you ok with it?

My answer is no. It puts a program at risk of doing things unethical wrt to the team's interest vs the SA's. It becomes unethical if promises, implied or stated, are broken.

Coaches are forced to use creative ways to manage the roster down to the 85 limit.

Here's a few quotes from a Wiki article on oversigning:

"In a December 2010 feature on oversigning, ESPN's Outside the Lines profiled former University of Miami defensive lineman Stephen Wesley, who was told - in July 2010, just weeks before his senior season was to begin - that his scholarship would not be renewed.[5]Miami and then-head coach Randy Shannon did not give an explanation for Wesley's dismissal from the team, but many believed (as Outside the Lines noted) Wesley was cut from the team to make room for Seantrel Henderson, who announced he would attend Miami just weeks before Wesley's dismissal.[6]"

For all of Mark Richt's faults, he has it right on this issue:

"Georgia head coach Mark Richt has condemned the process, saying "I don't want to oversign, then tell one of the kids we've already got, 'You've got no value to us' and toss him aside. I'm not going to do that."[2]


Nick Saben... not so much:

On April 15, 2008, Saban was asked by reporter Ian Rapoport how he was going to handle the numbers and when does he you start to worry about it? Saban replied "I'm not worried about them. It'll all work out. I mean, the whole thing has a solution to every issue. You don't put yourself in a position where you don't know what's coming." Rapoport respond, "So you're not going to tell us?" to which Saban replied "We know how it has to be managed, and it will be managed. It's none of your business. Aiight? And don't give me this stuff about the fans' need to know, because they don't need to know. Don't even ask. Aiight?"[26]

You guys should read the complete article, lots of good examples of what we do not want to be associated with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversigning

So how do coaches "manage" an oversigned roster?
1. Cut underperforming players already on roster outright with little or no explanation
2. Greyshirt newly signed players: tell them they need to forgo the fall season/semester and enroll a semester later and count towards next year's class.
3. Medical scholarships: tell underperforming players they are too injured to continue on the team then tell the press it's the medical staff's decision.
4. Strongly encourage underperforming players to transfer. Tell an SA they won't play because they're not good enough, they should transfer.

#1-3 are entirely unethical, #4 is iffy. If a coach refuses to oversign he won't have to go there, period. Btw, #4 is done all the time at some places even before a roster is over the limit in order to accrue more schollies to give out in the current cycle. The reason I don't like it is because you are giving up on a kid that you've told "come to GT for the 40 yr plan" and to his parents who you've told "we'll take good care of your boy, make him a man, etc."

I have no problem telling kids exactly where they stand, just don't tell them they have no hope here, move along. I know we haven't been in the position to have to do any of the above, yet, however, we are currently 3 spots over the limit. If coach knows of 3 players who have already indicated they are transferring, fine. That seems odd to me, though. Why go through grueling workouts for a team you've already decided to leave?
 
Last edited:

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
8,804
Location
North Shore, Chicago
Bingo .
There is your answer.
47 in 4 years can leave if not one was forced out. (Forced out as u define it. ).


Do u think it happens like on a certain day we have them count off on a certain day then 7 th one is rounded up and forced .

A story
I can heae you as the head coach or as a boss saying -gentlemen, I have gathered you here for an important meeting - please look 3 to your left. Now look 3 to your right . Next year u or one of those to your left or right will be gone. Gentlemen - in 4 years over half of u will be gone.
Even though this will happen, I declare none of you will be forced out if you dont want to leave. If u leave early it's not anything to do w me or my assistant- kind of like those pesky missed assignment.


My answer - 6 but if they occur in one position group on regular basis that leader will report plan for improvement. Fail to improve retention and u will be forced out.

I will make the attrition graph of last 15 years so we can clearly see if we continue on this level u find acceptable. and we will .

Brad Morgan .












How does that work out -

Have u
12 men every year can leave early and you dont see.

Whiskey is trying to deflect to theoretical over oversignng. I love his talk down - how many are ok w you??

Have you great lovers of gt ath
Man, I think you're saying great, well thought out things...but I can't hardly follow the logic of any of your posts. I don't know if it's voice-to-text or fat fingers, but the words seem to be randomly chosen and arbitrarily placed.
 

Animal02

Banned
Messages
6,269
Location
Southeastern Michigan
This thread should be titled simply: Oversigning, are you ok with it?

My answer is no. It puts a program at risk of doing things unethical wrt to the team's interest vs the SA's. It becomes unethical if promises, implied or stated, are broken.

Coaches are forced to use creative ways to manage the roster down to the 85 limit.

Here's a few quotes from a Wiki article on oversigning:

"In a December 2010 feature on oversigning, ESPN's Outside the Lines profiled former University of Miami defensive lineman Stephen Wesley, who was told - in July 2010, just weeks before his senior season was to begin - that his scholarship would not be renewed.[5]Miami and then-head coach Randy Shannon did not give an explanation for Wesley's dismissal from the team, but many believed (as Outside the Lines noted) Wesley was cut from the team to make room for Seantrel Henderson, who announced he would attend Miami just weeks before Wesley's dismissal.[6]"

For all of Mark Richt's faults, he has it right on this issue:

"Georgia head coach Mark Richt has condemned the process, saying "I don't want to oversign, then tell one of the kids we've already got, 'You've got no value to us' and toss him aside. I'm not going to do that."[2]


Nick Saben... not so much:

On April 15, 2008, Saban was asked by reporter Ian Rapoport how he was going to handle the numbers and when does he you start to worry about it? Saban replied "I'm not worried about them. It'll all work out. I mean, the whole thing has a solution to every issue. You don't put yourself in a position where you don't know what's coming." Rapoport respond, "So you're not going to tell us?" to which Saban replied "We know how it has to be managed, and it will be managed. It's none of your business. Aiight? And don't give me this stuff about the fans' need to know, because they don't need to know. Don't even ask. Aiight?"[26]

You guys should read the complete article, lots of good examples of what we do not want to be associated with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversigning

So how do coaches "manage" an oversigned roster?
1. Cut underperforming players already on roster outright with little or no explanation
2. Greyshirt newly signed players: tell them they need to forgo the fall season/semester and enroll a semester later and count towards next year's class.
3. Medical scholarships: tell underperforming players they are too injured to continue on the team then tell the press it's the medical staff's decision.
4. Strongly encourage underperforming players to transfer. Tell an SA they won't play because they're not good enough, they should transfer.

#1-3 are entirely unethical, #4 is iffy. If a coach refuses to oversign he won't have to go there, period. Btw, #4 is done all the time at some places even before a roster is over the limit in order to accrue more schollies to give out in the current cycle. The reason I don't like it is because you are giving up on a kid that you've told "come to GT for the 40 yr plan" and to his parents who you've told "we'll take good care of your boy, make him a man, etc."

I have no problem telling kids exactly where they stand, just don't tell them they have no hope here, move along. I know we haven't been in the position to have to do any of the above, yet, however, we are currently 3 spots over the limit. If coach knows of 3 players who have already indicated they are transferring, fine. That seems odd to me, though. Why go through grueling workouts for a team you've already decided to leave?
I agree. WRT #4, definitely can be a gray area.....A coach can say "If you really want to play more, see the field etc, you should consider transferring" . Player hears "Coach wants me to leave".
 

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
Messages
9,628
You keep comparing apples to oranges. Integrity obviously means less to you than winning. But your philosophy applied would actually kill recruiting long term.

I think I’ve made it pretty clear I oppose over signing. When done the coach doing so should be certain of his true numbers. I assume CGC is certain of his. If he miscalculates there will be some possible backlash.

I am still looking for u to stop sluring p- " you are low integrity but I am high integrity " and man up w a number of attritions u think is acceptable.

Coach johnson has had a run of 47 players in 4 years (+2 per year ) leave w elibility remaining. Cheese says that's ok if " no one was forced out" . As I said cgc should average no more than 6 . There is no excuse for 12 per year- what say you.

What limit on attritions per year can cgc have before u disagree?

Have u made any effort to look at old rosters to decern patterns that could break your undying love for sewak. I doubt it.
 

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
Messages
9,628
I have the rivals team recruiting rank and class size of gt, stanford, duke, vt, and mia for 2010 - 2019 .

Will put in spreadsheet w a few formula.

Prelim - 2012 to present Vt has recruited 33 more players than gt! In last 6 years vt recruited 148 players w 99 recruited in one 4 year period. Attrition alert!! vt Avg rank 21 last 6 years.




Stanford-
 

Augusta_Jacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
8,093
Location
Augusta, Georgia
I am still looking for u to stop sluring p- " you are low integrity but I am high integrity " and man up w a number of attritions u think is acceptable.

Coach johnson has had a run of 47 players in 4 years (+2 per year ) leave w elibility remaining. Cheese says that's ok if " no one was forced out" . As I said cgc should average no more than 6 . There is no excuse for 12 per year- what say you.

What limit on attritions per year can cgc have before u disagree?

Have u made any effort to look at old rosters to decern patterns that could break your undying love for sewak. I doubt it.

Just curious. Does your number include the medical scholarships (Whitley, Stickler, Gray, Ratliffe), the discipline dismissals (Mills, Commisong, Leggett, etc), and the Academic signees that never cleared the NCAA (Custis, Autry) or is it a sum total of ALL players, no matter what the reason, who left early.

I remember Gary Brown and Michael Preddy quit football altogether. One to pursue an Art degree and one just totally quit.

I know we were snakebit with injuries for a few years there. Haven't researched it myself, so I ask in ignorance looking for the answer.
 

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
Messages
9,628
Just curious. Does your number include the medical scholarships (Whitley, Stickler, Gray, Ratliffe), the discipline dismissals (Mills, Commisong, Leggett, etc), and the Academic signees that never cleared the NCAA (Custis, Autry) or is it a sum total of ALL players, no matter what the reason, who left early.

I remember Gary Brown and Michael Preddy quit football altogether. One to pursue an Art degree and one just totally quit.

I know we were snakebit with injuries for a few years there. Haven't researched it myself, so I ask in ignorance looking for the answer.
Yes. I will do the last few years.
They real issue is the love affair seawk recently had w young ol guys he used to replace his vets in Jr or sr year. If sewak was here and Bryan had any eligibility he would have "graduated" and left.
 

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
Messages
9,628
GATECH AND OTHER TEAM RECRUITING RIVALS(1).jpg
 

Augusta_Jacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
8,093
Location
Augusta, Georgia
Yes. I will do the last few years.
They real issue is the love affair seawk recently had w young ol guys he used to replace his vets in Jr or sr year. If sewak was here and Bryan had any eligibility he would have "graduated" and left.

I compiled a list of every scholarship player by year from 2011 to 2017. I'll try and add 2009 & 2010 next week. I couldn't replicate your numbers to come up with 12/year. Worst case scenario, including medicals, discipline, and academics, was 7 per class.

So far, the losses per class are thus:

2011 (7) 6 Transfer, 1 Quit Football
2012 (6) 1 Transfer, 3 Medical, 2 Discipline
2013 (8) 4 Transfer, 1 Medical, 2 Discipline, 1 Academic (Travis Custis never cleared NCAA Academics)
2014 (8) 1 Transfer, 2 Quit Football, 3 Medical, 1 Discipline, 1 Academics (Myles Autry never cleared NCAA Academics) (Gary Brown quit football to pursue Art degree, Michael Preddy just quit)
2015 (11) 8 Transfer, 1 Quit Football, 2 Medical
2016 (6) 4 Transfer, 1 Discipline, 1 Medical
2017 (2) 2 Transfer
2011-2017 Totals = (48) 26 Transfer, 10 Medical, 6 Discipline, 4 Quit Football, 2 Academics Avg total loss per class 7. Avg transfer/quit class 4

Some notes:
I did not include walk-ons.
I listed Brandon Adams (2016) as medical.
4 of the 26 transfers were grad transfers
I designated players who quit during their senior year after injuries as medical.

The 2015 class was almost as snakebit as the 2013 class. I'll try and put the charts up next week if I can. Going camping this weekend with the Boy Scouts so I won't have time until later.
 

LibertyTurns

Banned
Messages
6,216
Looks line a real good gain. How can you not be happy about adding this kid?

How many more total can we take? The 25 rules does not count 1st year, correct ?
 
Top