American Cultural Revolution

[Lotta Booze]

@Lotta Juice I obviously used hypothetical numbers, however the essence of the philosophy remains the same.

Lower the corporate tax burden, business costs go down, wages go up. Couple this with a lower personal tax burden, you have more money in your pocket to decide, then if you lower “soft taxes” things like (sneaky fees, consumption taxes, etc) you keep even more hence you have additional control and decision-making ability than under a more regressive tax policy like we have now. Lower the corporate tax burden, business costs go down, prices on goods & services are able to be reduced, you now have a high number of force multipliers in effect magnifying your income providing enhanced control & decision-making. On top of all this you enact regulatory reform driving business costs down again, another economic force multiplier.

It’s this type of economic stimulus that would eliminate the government stranglehold on our country’s economic engine and allow growth and prosperity not seen in this nation in decades. Government stifles innovation, government destroys entrepreneurship, government destroys people’s initiative and the list goes on. There is nothing government does better than a free market enterprise except create chaos & discontent among the people it’s chartered with serving.

We’re in the midst of one of the longest expansions in the economy in decades and you think more deregulation is the only thing holding us back from further multiplying the economy? I don’t think they’re going to take you as far you think they will.

If I could think of 1 government element that was better being run by socialist bureaucrats rather than free market capitalists, I might understand your position. Can you think of any?

Space Exploration. Going to the moon. Private industry hasn’t been there yet but the American government got there 50 years ago.

 

[MWBATL]

Milton Friedman, who no one would call a leftist, was a proponent of a negative income tax because he knew you had to do something with the poor. And he argued giving money directly to poor people would be better than paying for the administration of welfare. Any democratic candidate proposing a similar plan today would be harangued by Republicans for socialism.

Pretty sure we have been doing this already for a number of years. You get paid back by the government if your income is below a certain level (not refunded, but given money). That's a negative income tax.
Refundable Tax Credits

Refundable tax credits are the most beneficial credit, as they are entirely refundable. This means that—regardless of a taxpayer’s income or tax liability—they are entitled to the entire amount of the credit. This is true even if the refundable tax credit reduces the tax liability below $0. In that situation, the taxpayer is due a refund. As of tax year 2018, probably the most popular refundable tax credit is the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC). The Child Tax Creditbecame refundable (up to $1,400 per qualifying child) in 2018. Other refundable tax credits are available for education and healthcare coverage.

Soooo, not sure of your point on that one....

 

[MWBATL]

We’re in the midst of one of the longest expansions in the economy in decades and you think more deregulation is the only thing holding us back from further multiplying the economy? I don’t think they’re going to take you as far you think they will.

While I agree with you on this short term, I believe it is due (in part) to the growth of government into our economy overall which has put limits on our economic growth.

Economics isn't simple, which is why guys like Krugman are wrong so often, but it does look to me like when more and more of the economy is given over to the government, it slows economic growth (think Europe as a whole)....and when more and more of the economy is turned over to private individuals, the economy grows more strongly (think China)

In the longer term, if you can peel back some of the government barnacles that have been allowed to grow on the hull of our economic ship, the ship's speed might increase considerably. But you do have to get enough of the barnacles off to make a difference first......

 

[LibertyTurns]

@Lotta Juice Thanks, you pointed out a few things our government probably did better at the time.

A. Developed a nuclear warhead
B. Won two World Wars
C. Landed on the moon

The list is might slim though and there are zero social programs that fit into the plus column unless you count liberating the world as a social program of some sort.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/out-of-state-health-insurance-purchases.aspx

A lot of info and numerous sources that explore some of the pros and cons of these arguments. Plenty of ammo to be found by both sides. What can’t be argued is that everything implemented thus far is or has been a cluster.

 

[smathis30]

While I agree with you on this short term, I believe it is due (in part) to the growth of government into our economy overall which has put limits on our economic growth.

Economics isn't simple, which is why guys like Krugman are wrong so often, but it does look to me like when more and more of the economy is given over to the government, it slows economic growth (think Europe as a whole)....and when more and more of the economy is turned over to private individuals, the economy grows more strongly (think China)

In the longer term, if you can peel back some of the government barnacles that have been allowed to grow on the hull of our economic ship, the ship's speed might increase considerably. But you do have to get enough of the barnacles off to make a difference first......

China’s economy is literally state run businesses. That is the exact opposite of the point you are trying to prove. It’s literally one of the five pillars of their economic principal. Their economy grew more so due to the fact that other countries tries took advantage of the or manufacturing due to its access to American markets and the cost effective nature of a country where only 65% of the country is literate and even up to 10 years ago, 35% lived on 2$/day

 

[TampaBuzz]

Yea I don’t have to worry about that.

A couple thoughts:
1) Even on bad items, were within 10% of the richest countries on the world.
2) We are so rich, that we are by far the fattest country in the world. That problem alone has a huge drag on mortality statistics and healthcare costs.

35% of our ENTIRE healthcare costs are from obesity. (There are also other large avoidable costs like drinking, smoking, drugs.)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5359159/
(It was 28% all the way back in 2013 and growth rapidly...I can't find the 35%+ latest numbers that I remember reading.)

If we’re talking about healthcare costs and financial burdens, I’m not really as sympathetic to people who do things to themselves as those who get hit with something through no fault of their own. And when they get hit with that, there is no better place to be.

I don't know about you, but I pay more for health insurance that I do for my mortgage, and get very little return on my spending. That is for a family of three that are all blessedly healthy. That is a high deductible plan. I think it is obscene the profits that insurance companies make on healthcare without providing the first actual service. I find it absurd, that I have no idea what I am going to be charged for any particular service before I am required to purchase it. A typical conversation I have with my doctor....Doctor: go get this prescription. Me: how much is it? Doctor: I don't know, depends on your insurance provider. Me: Is this the most cost effective medicine for this thing? Doctor: It is the newest thing. Me: Can you give a list of all the available treatments, with cost, and efficacy? Maybe there is an "old" thing that is much less expensive that works just as well. Doctor: No, I don't have that kind of information.

Whatever you do, don't go the emergency room. The hospital is covered by your insurance....but the emergency room doctors are not! What the hell? Apparently, it is common for hospitals to hire "contract doctors" to man the ER at your hospital of choice and those doctors are not included in the insurance coverage. Just obscene games of "Got ya!"

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I don't know about you, but I pay more for health insurance that I do for my mortgage, and get very little return on my spending. That is for a family of three that are all blessedly healthy. That is a high deductible plan. I think it is obscene the profits that insurance companies make on healthcare without providing the first actual service. I find it absurd, that I have no idea what I am going to be charged for any particular service before I am required to purchase it. A typical conversation I have with my doctor....Doctor: go get this prescription. Me: how much is it? Doctor: I don't know, depends on your insurance provider. Me: Is this the most cost effective medicine for this thing? Doctor: It is the newest thing. Me: Can you give a list of all the available treatments, with cost, and efficacy? Maybe there is an "old" thing that is much less expensive that works just as well. Doctor: No, I don't have that kind of information.

Whatever you do, don't go the emergency room. The hospital is covered by your insurance....but the emergency room doctors are not! What the hell? Apparently, it is common for hospitals to hire "contract doctors" to man the ER at your hospital of choice and those doctors are not included in the insurance coverage. Just obscene games of "Got ya!"

Yep, my insurance premiums are around $27,000/year. We have the worst of both worlds - the bad parts of a private system mixed with the bad parts of a public system.

 

[MWBATL]

China’s economy is literally state run businesses. That is the exact opposite of the point you are trying to prove. It’s literally one of the five pillars of their economic principal. Their economy grew more so due to the fact that other countries tries took advantage of the or manufacturing due to its access to American markets and the cost effective nature of a country where only 65% of the country is literate and even up to 10 years ago, 35% lived on 2$/day

I beg to differ

https://www.businessinsider.com/how...ntentions-of-attracting-foreign-investments-5

Due to the reforms Deng put in place, China has gone from being a country that opposed capitalism to one that embraces property rights, profits and free market competition.

 

[LibertyTurns]

I beg to differ

https://www.businessinsider.com/how...ntentions-of-attracting-foreign-investments-5

Due to the reforms Deng put in place, China has gone from being a country that opposed capitalism to one that embraces property rights, profits and free market competition.

That article was written by a US based foreign investment firm peddling overseas investments. May be a bit biased.

 

[A Love Supreme]

I don't know about others, but for me, too many progressive politicians seem to be outright racists. Going along with this are things like the elimination of religious freedom and religious tolerance towards Christians. Many aspects such as racial quotas and reparations for slavery strike me as terrible invasions of personal freedoms and violations of our Constitutionally protected guarantees against persecution. The very idea of "protected classes" of people within our society is anathema to a color-blind society. Our society has a poor track record ion that area....but it is what we should all aspire too, and much of the progressive movement seems intent on righting discrimination with more discrimination, this time against the "oppressive white male patriarchy" (which I believe is BS).

The single payer thing is a bogey man that is used to scare us conservatives. At its extreme it takes away all our individual choices. ObamaCare caused me to lose my plan, and some of my doctors. It cost me a ton of money, as my wife was suddenly covered for pregnancy even at her advanced age.

You said something earlier that I completely agree with. In my life, I don't know anyone who is as extreme as the politicians are. Yet, if these politicians get elected, they will go ahead and do some of this stupid stuff.

Was it racist or an invasion of personal freedoms and persecution when the US government paid reparations for the Japanese internment camps, or Holocaust survivors, or the different Native American tribes?

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

Was it racist or an invasion of personal freedoms and persecution when the US government paid reparations for the Japanese internment camps, or Holocaust survivors, or the different Native American tribes?

How many generations removed are we from slavery? Personally, I don’t feel I owe a thing for what happened over a hundred years ago.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

How many generations removed are we from slavery? Personally, I don’t feel I owe a thing for what happened over a hundred years ago.

My personal opinion is that it’s irrelevant if I feel I personally benefitted. It’s more important to me if we can fairly identify who was wronged. Like at Georgetown University, they have an actual list of people by name and decided to do something. Good for them if that’s what they want to do. But the notion the federal government can come up with a list now is silly. I myself am 1/64th Cherokee Indian. Can you imagine trying to figure out if I actually am legally 1/64th and then to figure out what 1/64th of something I should get...and so on across 330,000,000 people? We would spend more money doing the genetic testing and validation than we would have available to pay back to people.

 

[MWBATL]

Umm, what should we do with murderers then? Should we pay reparations to their victims? Should we tax the children of murderers to pay for it? The deflection that they want to do this by taxing corporations is just plain stupid and silly (but it is something the "media" lets them get away with, so 1984 continues to grow and thrive in the early 21st century).

 

[LibertyTurns]

Umm, what should we do with murderers then? Should we pay reparations to their victims? Should we tax the children of murderers to pay for it? The deflection that they want to do this by taxing corporations is just plain stupid and silly (but it is something the "media" lets them get away with, so 1984 continues to grow and thrive in the early 21st century).

This topic is interesting.

Do we fine illegal immigrants for the costs of incarceration, deportation, the financial impact of the crimes they committed & on depresssed wages across the land for lower skilled workers? How do we recoup emergency room visit costs, schools for their children, etc?

Take it a step farther: If we legally seized the land from the indians, do we not charge the ancestors for tresspassing? Really? I’m not a Native American historian but did these people have deeds or titles to their land or were they just squatting on it so to speak?

Where would the lawsuits end? What’s the statute of limitations or are there any?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

This topic is interesting.

Do we fine illegal immigrants for the costs of incarceration, deportation, the financial impact of the crimes they committed & on depresssed wages across the land for lower skilled workers? How do we recoup emergency room visit costs, schools for their children, etc?

Take it a step farther: If we legally seized the land from the indians, do we not charge the ancestors for tresspassing? Really? I’m not a Native American historian but did these people have deeds or titles to their land or were they just squatting on it so to speak?

Where would the lawsuits end? What’s the statute of limitations or are there any?

I am NOT saying our behavior driving over the top of Indians back in the day is justified or good. But these Indians did the same thing to tribes before them, and that's how they ended up there. And the ones they ran off and/or killed had done the same thing to tribes before them. Sometimes you'll find an area where the last few hundred years consisted of 10 different tribes that had gone through this process. So I do admit to feeling that sometimes Americans get the bad rap for simply being superior in the defined process for the time of how land was owned and claimed.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Was it racist or an invasion of personal freedoms and persecution when the US government paid reparations for the Japanese internment camps, or Holocaust survivors, or the different Native American tribes?

So what exactly is your plan or what do you support regarding reparations? Who gets it and how much?

Just curious as You don’t see this idea being worthwhile or viable.

 

[A Love Supreme]

So what exactly is your plan or what do you support regarding reparations? Who gets it and how much?

Just curious as You don’t see this idea being worthwhile or viable.

Passing HR40 would be a start. Do you think it was worthwhile for the US government to give reparations to Japanese Americans, Holocaust survivors, and Native Americans?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Passing HR40 would be a start. Do you think it was worthwhile for the US government to give reparations to Japanese Americans, Holocaust survivors, and Native Americans?

You already asked that. Reparations for former slaves would have been a good idea in the 1860s. But at this point it’s impossible to figure out who and how much. Hence the question people keep asking - so how would YOU do it?

For example, who pays for genetic testing for hundreds of millions of people? How do you split money down to the fractional ancestry? Interested to hear your take.

 

[A Love Supreme]

Umm, what should we do with murderers then? Should we pay reparations to their victims? Should we tax the children of murderers to pay for it? The deflection that they want to do this by taxing corporations is just plain stupid and silly (but it is something the "media" lets them get away with, so 1984 continues to grow and thrive in the early 21st century).

Murderers usually go to jail. Slavery and then Jim Crow were backed by the United States government.