American Cultural Revolution

[Deleted member 2897]

Right in the beginning of the constitution it states the role of this more perfect union is to promote general welfare. Seems like it is in the constitution.

And by that measure, the federal government should pay for healthy food, running shoes, gym memberships, vacations, etc etc etc.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

It also states that anything not specifically granted to the Federal government is reserved to the states.

This is conveniently ignored.

Right - that’s the way it should work. Progressives want universal healthcare, so they do it in New York. South Carolina doesn’t believe in that so they don’t do it. Then people vote with their feet for where they want to live and how. That kind of stuff is not in the federal government’s charter.

 

[cyclejacket]

Right in the beginning of the constitution it states the role of this more perfect union is to promote general welfare. Seems like it is in the constitution.

Key word there is "promote". It also makes the distinction to "provide" for the common defense. Those two words have very different meanings. Thus, we have a military to protect us, but constitutionally, to initiate something like Universal Basic Income or guaranteed health care would cross the line from promote to provide.

 

[cyclejacket]

Medicare for all is the best solution to our health crisis, as far as it being such a bad program see what happens if you try to take it away. An uprising

Grandpa, it looks like you won't have to worry about whether any women are taking their second looks at you if you get your wish: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybe...urgery-leaving-thousands-to-go-blind-n2544390

Thousands of elderly people in Britain are left to go blind because of rationing of eye surgery in the National Health Service (NHS), a report revealed on Saturday (April 6). The Times newspaper said a survey by the Royal College of Ophthalmologists (RCO) found tens of thousands of elderly people are left struggling to see because of an NHS cost-cutting drive that relies on them dying before they can qualify for cataract surgery. The survey has found that the NHS has ignored instructions to end cataract treatment rationing in defiance of official guidance two years ago...Julie Wood, CEO of NHS Clinical Commissioners, which represents local funding bodies, defended the restrictions. She told the Times: "NICE guidance is not mandatory and clinical commissioners must have the freedom to make clinically led decisions that are in the best interests of both individual patients and their wider local populations. The NHS does not have unlimited resources."

A "cost-cutting drive" that "relies on [aging patients] dying before they can qualify" for needed operations. Such decisions are the inevitable consequence of government control and micromanagement. The system is "free" (setting aside the eye-popping tax rates Americans would experience if the US adopted such a regime) and "fair," but you'd better pray that the government's rules cover your condition or malady.

 

[MWBATL]

Having lived in theUK, I can tell you I hate what Progressives want to do to US health care. I listened to rational debates about eliminating smokers from the NHS because they were poisoning themselves.
Is that a debate you want here in the US, with no private health insurance allowed? (NB-I don’t smoke and think smokers should pay more for their health insurance but still believe ultimately in freedom of choice.)

 

[Lotta Booze]

We have a progressive tax system only if you consider Federal and State income taxes. If you look at taxation in its totality, we have an extraordinarily regressive tax system.

Who do you think bears the burden of the vast majority of taxes? It appears you think the poor have it pretty good so is it the middle class that’s getting hammered or are we really milking the rich ?

That's a good clarification. Payroll taxes are regressive. Even with those though you're nowhere close to your 80% rac example.

And the wealthier classes pay more in income tax than the others. As it should be.

I don't think the poor "have it pretty good". But why do you operate under the premise that someone must be getting "hammered" or "milked"? It's that type of thinking that's just going to lead to perpetual anger and frustration. Not a great premise to start with imo.

 

[Lotta Booze]

I don't know about others, but for me, too many progressive politicians seem to be outright racists. Going along with this are things like the elimination of religious freedom and religious tolerance towards Christians. Many aspects such as racial quotas and reparations for slavery strike me as terrible invasions of personal freedoms and violations of our Constitutionally protected guarantees against persecution. The very idea of "protected classes" of people within our society is anathema to a color-blind society. Our society has a poor track record ion that area....but it is what we should all aspire too, and much of the progressive movement seems intent on righting discrimination with more discrimination, this time against the "oppressive white male patriarchy" (which I believe is BS).

The single payer thing is a bogey man that is used to scare us conservatives. At its extreme it takes away all our individual choices. ObamaCare caused me to lose my plan, and some of my doctors. It cost me a ton of money, as my wife was suddenly covered for pregnancy even at her advanced age.

You said something earlier that I completely agree with. In my life, I don't know anyone who is as extreme as the politicians are. Yet, if these politicians get elected, they will go ahead and do some of this stupid stuff.

Gotta say I haven't seen anyone proposing limiting religious freedom or religious tolerance to Christians. Seems like fox news fear mongering

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

That's a good clarification. Payroll taxes are regressive. Even with those though you're nowhere close to your 80% rac example.

And the wealthier classes pay more in income tax than the others. As it should be.

I don't think the poor "have it pretty good". But why do you operate under the premise that someone must be getting "hammered" or "milked"? It's that type of thinking that's just going to lead to perpetual anger and frustration. Not a great premise to start with imo.

Actually hammering and milking those who produce...to redistribute it to those who do not...will lead to perpetual anger and frustration. So....

 

[Lotta Booze]

Key word there is "promote". It also makes the distinction to "provide" for the common defense. Those two words have very different meanings. Thus, we have a military to protect us, but constitutionally, to initiate something like Universal Basic Income or guaranteed health care would cross the line from promote to provide.

And I think that's a fair discussion to have, how far does "promote" go? And obviously there will be different sides on it but having that discussion is a far cry from "one side wants to eliminate liberty and freedom" that i hear so often from the right.

And i didn't intend for this thread to get too in the weeds on healthcare policy but i did want to push for better discourse.

And still.... if the right has any better ideas I'm all ears.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Gotta say I haven't seen anyone proposing limiting religious freedom or religious tolerance to Christians. Seems like fox news fear mongering

Its 24x7. Remember the bakers and other service industries folks were trying to put out of business? The bullying of Chick-Fil-A. We could go on all day on that one. But I don't have cable news and don't watch Fox, so I don't know what they were griping about.

 

[Lotta Booze]

Actually hammering and milking those who produce...to redistribute it to those who do not...will lead to perpetual anger and frustration. So....

And there it is. The disdain for the poor. Those rich who are getting "milked", who do you think they made their money off of?

Seems to be part of the conservative marketing plan. Lower taxes=liberty&freedom. Poor people=lazy non producers

I don't buy it

 

[Deleted member 2897]

And there it is. The disdain for the poor. Those rich who are getting "milked", who do you think they made their money off of?

Seems to be part of the conservative marketing plan. Lower taxes=liberty&freedom. Poor people=lazy non producers

I don't buy it

The rich made their money off the poor? LOL. When did Bill Gates or Julio Jones or Tom Hanks or Warren Buffett force someone to buy their stuff? When did they steal from anyone? LOL.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

And there it is. The disdain for the poor. Those rich who are getting "milked", who do you think they made their money off of?

Seems to be part of the conservative marketing plan. Lower taxes=liberty&freedom. Poor people=lazy non producers

I don't buy it

Ahh there it is...the disdain for the hard working producers whom leftists believe only succeed by walking on the backs of the downtrodden.

 

[Lotta Booze]

The rich made their money off the poor? LOL. When did Bill Gates or Julio Jones or Tom Hanks or Warren Buffett force someone to buy their stuff? When did they steal from anyone? LOL.

When did I ever say they made anyone buy anything or stole from them? Again, putting words in my mouth.

Walmart, McDonald's, Starbucks, Sears, etc. The owners and executives are the rich who are allegedly getting "milked". Good for them, congratulations to them for making lots of money and being successful but it's completely unnecessary to denigrate all their employees who work for them and remain poor. Or as Whiskey_Clear would say, are non producers.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

When did I ever say they made anyone buy anything or stole from them? Again, putting words in my mouth.

Walmart, McDonald's, Starbucks, Sears, etc. The owners and executives are the rich who are allegedly getting "milked". Good for them, congratulations to them for making lots of money and being successful but it's completely unnecessary to denigrate all their employees who work for them and remain poor. Or as Whiskey_Clear would say, are non producers.

I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth, I was trying to quote you.

Those rich who are getting "milked", who do you think they made their money off of?

So you tell me then what you were referring to?

 

[Lotta Booze]

I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth, I was trying to quote you.

Those rich who are getting "milked", who do you think they made their money off of?

So you tell me then what you were referring to?

I did. In the post you replied to.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I did. In the post you replied to.

You said the rich made their money off the poor. You implied the rich weren’t the ones being milked, but we’re doing the milking. That was my point and purpose in replying. So that is twice what you meant or it’s not?

 

[Lotta Booze]

You said the rich made their money off the poor. You implied the rich weren’t the ones being milked, but we’re doing the milking. That was my point and purpose in replying. So that is twice what you meant or it’s not?

My point was simply that all of those workers who are employed by these large corporations and remain poor while they are working don't need to be insulted or kicked while they are down simply because they are performing simpler tasks or less complex jobs. The company heads (rich) need these people (for now) for their businesses to function. Do we really need to insult these people who are working just because their wages are low? Just because they haven't received the education that many of us have? And they are just going to be lumped into the "non producer" category? Yeah, I'm not for that.

 

[grandpa jacket]

Having lived in theUK, I can tell you I hate what Progressives want to do to US health care. I listened to rational debates about eliminating smokers from the NHS because they were poisoning themselves.
Is that a debate you want here in the US, with no private health insurance allowed? (NB-I don’t smoke and think smokers should pay more for their health insurance but still believe ultimately in freedom of choice.)

Do you know the number of health plan choices you have with Medicare, you should take a look see.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

My point was simply that all of those workers who are employed by these large corporations and remain poor while they are working don't need to be insulted or kicked while they are down simply because they are performing simpler tasks or less complex jobs. The company heads (rich) need these people (for now) for their businesses to function. Do we really need to insult these people who are working just because their wages are low? Just because they haven't received the education that many of us have? And they are just going to be lumped into the "non producer" category? Yeah, I'm not for that.

Okay sorry I didn’t read that in the posts at first. I don’t know who is insulting poor people (certainly I don’t feel like that), but I agree with you in that regard.