Amazed how people just don’t want to work

[Northeast Stinger]

In studying family systems as part of my graduate work I discovered the rather obvious truth that no two siblings have the same parent. I grew up with four brothers and I can attest to the fact that because of birth order we each knew a different set of parents.

The economy is like this. Whether the economy booms or busts, different sectors as well as different individuals, are experiencing a totally different economy. I think it is difficult to understand someone’s experience when it is totally the opposite of yours. It is also tempting to project from your own experience on to everyone else. Humility is especially hard if you have been privileged or fortunate.

“Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to the skillful; but time and chance happen to them all. For no one can anticipate the time of disaster. Like fish taken in a cruel net, and like birds caught in a snare, so mortals are snared at a time of calamity, when it suddenly falls upon them.” -Ecclesiastes

 

[RonJohn]

There are lots of nuances to this conversation in my opinion. The ACE study showed how people get hardwired at an early age, again, through no fault of their own. Without going into the meat of this research let me make an oblique reference as a kind of analogy. Child abuse is horrible and the people who commit it are blame worthy. On the other hand, most of these same people had their life set on this course when they themselves were repeatedly abused as children. There is no cure that we know of for what happened to them.

The problem of poverty is similar. I spent about 30 years working in various South Georgia towns. To put it bluntly, any young person with any sense would get out of those towns as quickly as possible. But most don’t. Even though there are no job prospects that would ever raise them out of the working poor category they do not have the educational background or the intellectual tools to see that there is a better life elsewhere. They literally just can’t see it. No one ever exposed them to any thing different. To them no place on earth is better even though they’ve never been more than 30 miles away from home to find out.

I think we agree mostly, we just come at this from a different angle. Most of the time, I try to look at things from a solution of issue standpoint instead of a blame standpoint. If a person doesn't look past the end of this month with career and personal finances, it doesn't really matter if he is willfully acting poorly or if he was ingrained by his parents from birth that this is how to act. Instead of trying to blame him, or exonerate him of blame, I would rather concentrate on what he can do differently to achieve a different result. Cycles are difficult to break. However, if we(in general not you and I) simply argue about who is to blame for the situation, it will never get better. This is something we can do a better job of teaching in school. We can try to convince young poor couples that they should approach finances differently. (We can try to convince older people also, but to break the cycle we need to start before people have children and pass tendencies along.) I think the most difficult thing in convincing people after high school to be more responsible with finances is that some people won't listen unless you are tougher, while some people are going to believe you are blaming them if you are too tough. I think no matter how tough you are, some will still not listen, and no matter how gentle you are, some will believe you are blaming them.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

There are some people like this. However, I believe that if you look at the history of the majority of people in that situation, you can find things they have done and decisions they have made that caused them to be in that situation. Just from personal anecdotal evidence it is not just one decision, but a series of decisions:

I have a cousin who got a close to minimum wage job after graduating high school. He grew up very poor, so as soon as he had a job be purchased a car on a loan. He worked there for a few months and then "found" another job that would have a better top pay, so he moved to it. A few months later, he "found" a delivery job that was lower pay, but he was going to kill it on tips. A few months later he realized that the pay even with tips didn't match what he was making previously, so he changed jobs again. For about ten years he was stuck in that cycle. He would go through starting positions that paid close to minimum wage at four to five companies every year. He didn't plan for the future, just always thought the grass was greener at a different location and swapped and swapped. At that time, he always blamed other people for him always being at a starting wage even though he kept changing jobs. He was evicted from several rental houses, and always blamed the landlord even though he wasn't paying rent. He had a vehicle repossessed and blamed the bank even though he wasn't paying the truck payment. Back then he said that it was only "luck" that I was able to get a degree from GT, and that if he was "lucky" like me he would have been given a nice job. He eventually went to truck driving school and now makes a decent living driving a truck. The biggest thing that changed with him was his mentality. He decided to make himself more valuable. He decided to start being responsible with rent/(now mortgage)/bills. I know that several people had talked to him about the differences between waiting for "luck" and being responsible and doing things himself. It took him making that decision for himself to make a difference.

One side story about that cousin. His mother was very poor. She made very bad decisions with jobs and money for her entire life.(she is retired now) (it also explains where he learned from) My cousin and his younger brother always wore second hand clothes to school. First day of school, most of the kids had nice and starchy brand new clothes, but they did not. One year, probably sophomore of high school, his mother had a little bit of money and they got brand new off brand clothes. He was very happy, and it was apparent to me that he was proud to be wearing new clothes on the first day of school. Some of the other kids made comments to me about him wearing off brand stuff. I berated them and told them to leave him alone. A few of them told him that he had a large rip in the back of his jeans. I saw him slinking backed into a corner of the room and he told me what the other kids had told him. I looked and let him know that his jeans were perfectly whole. Pissed me off greatly. Something so simple was one of the proudest moments of his life to that point and other people had to ruin it. I used to think that was only kids that act that way, but I don't think that any more.

I taught high school for 30 years and that sort of nonsense went on all the time. I am sorry that you and your cousin were victimized by that mentality. In many ways, that episode explains his life story.

 

[4shotB]

I taught high school for 30 years and that sort of nonsense went on all the time. I am sorry that you and your cousin were victimized by that mentality. In many ways, that episode explains his life story.

I have been teaching high school for the last 10 years. I will tell you what I learned in this time - prior to this experience, I had an inflated sense of what I accomplished at GT and in my professional career in engineering and management following. After spending time around high school kids, I realize that I, in essence, hit the lottery in life - like other posters have mentioned, I was raised in a loving, stable working class family where I was taught responsibility and accountability. I guess I assumed that everyone else did too. Based on my observations, the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mantra that gets tossed around works for maybe 1-2% of the children born into unfortunate circumstances. Reflecting back on my life and decision making skills as a teen, I doubt I would have that ability myself back then. Sounds much easier than it actually is. Children need to see behaviors continually modeled by people they know and trust and not just be told or lectured.

 

[RonJohn]

I taught high school for 30 years and that sort of nonsense went on all the time. I am sorry that you and your cousin were victimized by that mentality. In many ways, that episode explains his life story.

My immediate family was middle class and stable.

The cousin that I discussed has a brother. The brother left his mother directly after high school and joined the army for a short while. He worked as a mechanic in the army. When he left the army, he became an Audi certified mechanic and has done well for himself. I am certain that the army played a role in how his life progressed, but he was always somewhat different from his brother. I don't know if it was the difference or the army that made the largest difference in his life.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I think we agree mostly, we just come at this from a different angle. Most of the time, I try to look at things from a solution of issue standpoint instead of a blame standpoint. If a person doesn't look past the end of this month with career and personal finances, it doesn't really matter if he is willfully acting poorly or if he was ingrained by his parents from birth that this is how to act. Instead of trying to blame him, or exonerate him of blame, I would rather concentrate on what he can do differently to achieve a different result. Cycles are difficult to break. However, if we(in general not you and I) simply argue about who is to blame for the situation, it will never get better. This is something we can do a better job of teaching in school. We can try to convince young poor couples that they should approach finances differently. (We can try to convince older people also, but to break the cycle we need to start before people have children and pass tendencies along.) I think the most difficult thing in convincing people after high school to be more responsible with finances is that some people won't listen unless you are tougher, while some people are going to believe you are blaming them if you are too tough. I think no matter how tough you are, some will still not listen, and no matter how gentle you are, some will believe you are blaming them.

As I indicated before, there ARE solutions out there but we fail to follow the research. Some countries have programs in which every time a child is born the parents get a visitation from a social worker who develops a relationship with the family for the first two years of the child’s life. Parents are coached in a gentle and loving way to learn how to understand the needs of the child, to learn the child’s “language” and to bond. Interestingly the research shows that humans have an innate capacity to nurture but sometimes need encouragement. I’ve watched films of these home visitors and it is beautiful to watch.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I have been teaching high school for the last 10 years. I will tell you what I learned in this time - prior to this experience, I had an inflated sense of what I accomplished at GT and in my professional career in engineering and management following. After spending time around high school kids, I realize that I, in essence, hit the lottery in life - like other posters have mentioned, I was raised in a loving, stable working class family where I was taught responsibility and accountability. I guess I assumed that everyone else did too. Based on my observations, the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mantra that gets tossed around works for maybe 1-2% of the children born into unfortunate circumstances. Reflecting back on my life and decision making skills as a teen, I doubt I would have that ability myself back then. Sounds much easier than it actually is. Children need to see behaviors continually modeled by people they know and trust and not just be told or lectured.

Exactly all of this. Early childhood relationships are the critical piece that hardwires the brain.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

My immediate family was middle class and stable.

The cousin that I discussed has a brother. The brother left his mother directly after high school and joined the army for a short while. He worked as a mechanic in the army. When he left the army, he became an Audi certified mechanic and has done well for himself. I am certain that the army played a role in how his life progressed, but he was always somewhat different from his brother. I don't know if it was the difference or the army that made the largest difference in his life.

What makes this so difficult, in my opinion, is that there isn’t a one size fits all prescription. The army is the absolute right choice for a lot of people but with others it can turn them into anti-social misfits who either want to beat their wives or overthrow the government.

The same kind of thing can happen in the classroom. We all have different learning styles. The same teacher can cause one student to become a librarian and another student to never want to read another book as long as they live. Or one teacher can create a physicist out of one student and a math phobic adult in the other. In every case there is no blame just a set of almost infinite factors coupled with timing and chance.

 

[RonJohn]

What makes this so difficult, in my opinion, is that there isn’t a one size fits all prescription. The army is the absolute right choice for a lot of people but with others it can turn them into anti-social misfits who either want to beat their wives or overthrow the government.

The same kind of thing can happen in the classroom. We all have different learning styles. The same teacher can cause one student to become a librarian and another student to never want to read another book as long as they live. Or one teacher can create a physicist out of one student and a math phobic adult in the other. In every case there is no blame just a set of almost infinite factors coupled with timing and chance.

I agree that there is no one size fits all solution. Some people will only respond to strong authority. Some people will rebel against strong authority. Some people will wilt at strong authority. With respect to personal finances of a person who lives paycheck to paycheck, an outside objective observer would likely be able to find things that that person could do to make more money and to spend less money. Getting that person to listen to such advice would probably be difficult. Getting the person to believe that things can be different and better is probably the most difficult part. Also, they have probably been taken advantage of by other people who have promised a way out of paycheck-to-paycheck for only a $500 "investment", and are therefore extra skeptical.

 

[RonJohn]

As I indicated before, there ARE solutions out there but we fail to follow the research. Some countries have programs in which every time a child is born the parents get a visitation from a social worker who develops a relationship with the family for the first two years of the child’s life. Parents are coached in a gentle and loving way to learn how to understand the needs of the child, to learn the child’s “language” and to bond. Interestingly the research shows that humans have an innate capacity to nurture but sometimes need encouragement. I’ve watched films of these home visitors and it is beautiful to watch.

I am confused by this. Teaching how to engage with children and be a good parent, I think is different than teaching fiscal responsibility. There are parents who are awful with money, but have very good nurturing relationships with their children. There are also parents who are good with finances that are physically or mentally abusive to their children.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I agree that there is no one size fits all solution. Some people will only respond to strong authority. Some people will rebel against strong authority. Some people will wilt at strong authority. With respect to personal finances of a person who lives paycheck to paycheck, an outside objective observer would likely be able to find things that that person could do to make more money and to spend less money. Getting that person to listen to such advice would probably be difficult. Getting the person to believe that things can be different and better is probably the most difficult part. Also, they have probably been taken advantage of by other people who have promised a way out of paycheck-to-paycheck for only a $500 "investment", and are therefore extra skeptical.

Again, this is why many neurologists suggest that the time to make changes in a person is between the ages of 0 and 2. Resources applied at this age can drastically reduce poverty, addiction and crime in future generations as well as saving tax payers $millions.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I am confused by this. Teaching how to engage with children and be a good parent, I think is different than teaching fiscal responsibility. There are parents who are awful with money, but have very good nurturing relationships with their children. There are also parents who are good with finances that are physically or mentally abusive to their children.

If a child has its fundamental needs met by age 2 they have a built in advantage that can overcome most anything thrown at them later in life -neurologists call it resiliency.

 

[Technut1990]

That’s heartbreaking. I wish your family well in this struggle.

Thanks Stinger, that means a lot, seriously !

 

[MWBATL]

People who post on GTSwarm all day don’t want to work.

People who post on GT Swarm all day don't HAVE to work

 

[Technut1990]

In studying family systems as part of my graduate work I discovered the rather obvious truth that no two siblings have the same parent. I grew up with four brothers and I can attest to the fact that because of birth order we each knew a different set of parents.

The economy is like this. Whether the economy booms or busts, different sectors as well as different individuals, are experiencing a totally different economy. I think it is difficult to understand someone’s experience when it is totally the opposite of yours. It is also tempting to project from your own experience on to everyone else. Humility is especially hard if you have been privileged or fortunate.

“Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to the skillful; but time and chance happen to them all. For no one can anticipate the time of disaster. Like fish taken in a cruel net, and like birds caught in a snare, so mortals are snared at a time of calamity, when it suddenly falls upon them.” -Ecclesiastes

just wondering here, isn’t every level of society like you described. I mean in the workplace for example, isn’t everyone looking at life from their perspectives ? There are privledged and downtrodden in the same office. Often times the privileged are so busy promoting themselves they don’t see the downstream effects of their actions on others and often they intentionally place barriers between them and those who are striding to improve, all In an effort to protect their own positions. The downtrodden see the upward trending folks as privileged. They are “yes” people who say yes and then complain behind managements backs and then sell out their coworkers who agree with them. I mean, I think, we see it everywhere. There seems to be a human component to these things and often the result is self inflicted. I know folks who have completely betrayed what could have been true friendships for the sake of getting the advantage in competitive promotions. I’ve never and would never back stab to improve my lot in life. Although It’s not science It’s not really anything special, I believe it’s ethics. The problem really lies in the fact that those among us who don’t seek to live by ethics cause the rest of us to doubt those who truly need help. In dating these people are known as “players”. We learn our empathy and ethics via our experiences and family. When that lesson is negative The human mindset becomes cynical and it is entrenching more and more each day. Its a negative ‘you can only trust yourself‘ society. It’s a what’s in it for me society. Have you ever helped someone and walked away wondering if you just got played ? I have. If you have I suspect it’s been your experience with immoral people who put that defensive/distrustful posture in your mind. Can you really believe their story kinda feeling. If we could separate the wheat from the chaff it would be a lot easier to see those who truly can’t help themselves, until then those in need will be burdened further by the chaff others throw into life.

 

[Technut1990]

People who post on GT Swarm all day don't HAVE to work

OR they’ve worked for 41 years nonstop and have gotten to retirement

 

[Northeast Stinger]

just wondering here, isn’t every level of society like you described. I mean in the workplace for example, isn’t everyone looking at life from their perspectives ? There are privledged and downtrodden in the same office. Often times the privileged are so busy promoting themselves they don’t see the downstream effects of their actions on others and often they intentionally place barriers between them and those who are striding to improve, all In an effort to protect their own positions. The downtrodden see the upward trending folks as privileged. They are “yes” people who say yes and then complain behind managements backs and then sell out their coworkers who agree with them. I mean, I think, we see it everywhere. There seems to be a human component to these things and often the result is self inflicted. I know folks who have completely betrayed what could have been true friendships for the sake of getting the advantage in competitive promotions. I’ve never and would never back stab to improve my lot in life. Although It’s not science It’s not really anything special, I believe it’s ethics. The problem really lies in the fact that those among us who don’t seek to live by ethics cause the rest of us to doubt those who truly need help. In dating these people are known as “players”. We learn our empathy and ethics via our experiences and family. When that lesson is negative The human mindset becomes cynical and it is entrenching more and more each day. Its a negative ‘you can only trust yourself‘ society. It’s a what’s in it for me society. Have you ever helped someone and walked away wondering if you just got played ? I have. If you have I suspect it’s been your experience with immoral people who put that defensive/distrustful posture in your mind. Can you really believe their story kinda feeling. If we could separate the wheat from the chaff it would be a lot easier to see those who truly can’t help themselves, until then those in need will be burdened further by the chaff others throw into life.

Yes, this seems to be the case.

But one of the harsh early lessons we had to teach our children is that being ethical is it’s own reward. Just because you are ethical doesn’t mean you won’t get crushed in life. Better to be ethical for its own sake.

Capitalism has created a myth that the most virtuous come out on top and those who fall by the wayside just didn’t measure up. The story of Job in the Bible is one in which all of a man’s closest friends see him as a loser because he loses his family and everything he owns. One of the morals of the story is that you can’t tell who the most righteous in a society are by whether or not they are successful. That’s hard for a lot of people to handle. Pretty much all of us want our hard work to be rewarded.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Thanks Stinger, that means a lot, seriously !

And I mean it when I say I wish I had an answer.

 

[RonJohn]

Yes, this seems to be the case.

But one of the harsh early lessons we had to teach our children is that being ethical is it’s own reward. Just because you are ethical doesn’t mean you won’t get crushed in life. Better to be ethical for its own sake.

Capitalism has created a myth that the most virtuous come out on top and those who fall by the wayside just didn’t measure up. The story of Job in the Bible is one in which all of a man’s closest friends see him as a loser because he loses his family and everything he owns. One of the morals of the story is that you can’t tell who the most righteous in a society are by whether or not they are successful. That’s hard for a lot of people to handle. Pretty much all of us want our hard work to be rewarded.

I am a supporter of capitalism, but I don't think I have ever thought that good people become successful or that people who aren't successful are bad. I have known ethically defunct people who have apparent wealth. I have known people with a great deal of integrity that do not have much to their name. Of the people I can think about that have integrity but are not in great financial shape, all of them are in some kind of service to others industry. Ministry, teaching, etc. Those that I can think of made sure their children were taken care of, and that their children learned integrity. By taken care of, I mean that they had a decent place to live, food to eat, and the were pressed to achieve an education, not that they got a Corvette for their 16th birthday. I don't think the value of a person is based on their net worth, or flashy possessions. Also, when I say that people could make better decisions with their money and their career, I am not saying they are bad people. If a middle class person who struggles paycheck to paycheck signs a 2 year Verizon contract for four family members with payments on iPhone 12s and has to pay more than $300/month for cell phone service, that isn't a smart decision. It doesn't mean that he is a bad person, but he probably should have someone point out that if he is struggling, he should concentrate on using money for necessities and not status symbols.

I also don't know how you really can tell who is financially successful and who isn't. If you have ever read The Millionaire Next Door, he points out that most self made millionaires live in normal middle class houses and drive 2-3 year old normal middle class cars. In the book, (from memory, some numbers might be wrong), he compares a person with a net worth over $1.5 million on an annual income of $100k to a lawyer with an income of $300k who drives fancy cars, lives in a very nice house, wears expensive suits, and expensive watches. (the book was written in the 90s when watches were still a thing) The lawyer's net worth was in the $200k to $400k range. The point he made was that from outward appearances, the lawyer was much more wealthy than the other guy. One point I took from that book is the question: Do you want to be a millionaire or look like a millionaire? I think there are a lot of people who don't understand the difference. My belief is that it is very common for people from a poor background to think that just having a Mercedes means that you are wealthy and successful.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I am a supporter of capitalism, but I don't think I have ever thought that good people become successful or that people who aren't successful are bad. I have known ethically defunct people who have apparent wealth. I have known people with a great deal of integrity that do not have much to their name. Of the people I can think about that have integrity but are not in great financial shape, all of them are in some kind of service to others industry. Ministry, teaching, etc. Those that I can think of made sure their children were taken care of, and that their children learned integrity. By taken care of, I mean that they had a decent place to live, food to eat, and the were pressed to achieve an education, not that they got a Corvette for their 16th birthday. I don't think the value of a person is based on their net worth, or flashy possessions. Also, when I say that people could make better decisions with their money and their career, I am not saying they are bad people. If a middle class person who struggles paycheck to paycheck signs a 2 year Verizon contract for four family members with payments on iPhone 12s and has to pay more than $300/month for cell phone service, that isn't a smart decision. It doesn't mean that he is a bad person, but he probably should have someone point out that if he is struggling, he should concentrate on using money for necessities and not status symbols.

I also don't know how you really can tell who is financially successful and who isn't. If you have ever read The Millionaire Next Door, he points out that most self made millionaires live in normal middle class houses and drive 2-3 year old normal middle class cars. In the book, (from memory, some numbers might be wrong), he compares a person with a net worth over $1.5 million on an annual income of $100k to a lawyer with an income of $300k who drives fancy cars, lives in a very nice house, wears expensive suits, and expensive watches. (the book was written in the 90s when watches were still a thing) The lawyer's net worth was in the $200k to $400k range. The point he made was that from outward appearances, the lawyer was much more wealthy than the other guy. One point I took from that book is the question: Do you want to be a millionaire or look like a millionaire? I think there are a lot of people who don't understand the difference. My belief is that it is very common for people from a poor background to think that just having a Mercedes means that you are wealthy and successful.

Here’s an anecdote for you….I have an elderly friend who is perhaps one of the largest commercial real estate developers in Georgia. You would perhaps recognize his name if I mentioned him. He and his wife live in a 1200 sq ft cabin on a creek in north Georgia. There is nothing about his lifestyle that would give away that he is worth millions.

Oh, and he went to Tech.