Amazed how people just don’t want to work

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
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11,150
Just my brief $.02 after a decade of teaching at both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum (rural,poor,public and wealthy, suburban,private) on the topic of "fixing education". To leave all other variables the same and attempt to engineer a solution vis a vis our government is throwing good money after bad.

My takeway at the end of the day (after seeing kids who have failed mightily and will continue to do so and kids who have attended the world's best colleges and universities and achieved success as young adults) is that 80% of a child's education is dependent on the home and what happens there. The other 20% is the name on the front of the building. We (general use of the term) want to throw money at this 20% on our Pareto chart. I guess because we either don't understand the issues or it's not as messy as the 80%.

To put it in other terms, new buildings, hiring the best and brightest to work as faculty, etc. is not enough to offset a bad foundation. Again, let me be clear, these are just opinions based on my experiences and I am not sharing them as facts.
I essentially agree. Lots of educators in my family who can attest.

The small caveats are as follows. Some school systems really are bad. We had to home school our youngest for a period just to keep the school from doing real damage. Good teachers can be ineffective if the principal is bad. Good principles can fail if the school board is political and corrupt. Some school systems struggle because they have insufficient funding. The list goes on.

My view from 30,000 feet is that the invention of the public school system in this country was wildly successful. It was designed to educate the widest possible number of citizens with at least a general, basic education. It accomplished that and then some. This was the necessary prerequisite for a democracy to work. With one person / one vote, it helps to educate as much of the population as possible. This is why even in retirement I gladly pay taxes that support school systems. Education benefits us all.

There are some things that could help improve the system. Good early childhood education is a must, including head-start programs. Psychologists and social workers in the school do not need to be an afterthought. And, as I keep repeating, use the science that tells us how healthy brain function develops and design programs accordingly.
 

4shotB

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
5,132
Good teachers can be ineffective if the principal is bad.
Good points. One thing that is lacking and could be addressed in education (public and private) is how little the people in charge know about leadership/management/etc. Coming from the private sector, I was (and remain) appalled by what I have seen in this area. It would be funny except for the outcomes produced by poor leadership. Ironically, I have been impressed for the most part by the teachers. My sample size of schools is small (2) but I have not encountered the stereotypical "bad teacher". At worst, I have seen a few that could best be described as ordinary or mediocre or just marginally competent.
 

GT33

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,275
Just my brief $.02 after a decade of teaching at both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum (rural,poor,public and wealthy, suburban,private) on the topic of "fixing education". To leave all other variables the same and attempt to engineer a solution vis a vis our government is throwing good money after bad.

My takeway at the end of the day (after seeing kids who have failed mightily and will continue to do so and kids who have attended the world's best colleges and universities and achieved success as young adults) is that 80% of a child's education is dependent on the home and what happens there. The other 20% is the name on the front of the building. We (general use of the term) want to throw money at this 20% on our Pareto chart. I guess because we either don't understand the issues or it's not as messy as the 80%.

To put it in other terms, new buildings, hiring the best and brightest to work as faculty, etc. is not enough to offset a bad foundation. Again, let me be clear, these are just opinions based on my experiences and I am not sharing them as facts.
That's why I started with my first 2 points. Family is the #1 issue facing our country & #2 is safety. I'm not sure how you even set the conditions for success of a child if the home they're going to is all messed up and the neighborhood they're living in is unsafe to grow up in.

Most families are torn apart by money, violence, drugs, infidelity, etc. I'm really not sure which is #1, let's say for argument's sake lack of a decent, stable job is "a", violence is "b", drugs is "c" and personal failings like infidelity are "d".

We can fix "a" by setting the conditions under which companies can thrive- basically eradicate harmful policies like bad taxes, burdensome regulations, anti-American/competitive stuff, etc.

We can fix "b" and "c" by un-politicizing law enforcement and taking action to manage it in the fashion for which it is intended, to enforce our laws and maintain safe neighborhoods for our children. Accountability goes both ways, but turning a blind eye to the real source of violence because we have national agendas is one of the most damaging things we can possibly do to our own people. Bad cops need to be dealt with, but that's only a small portion of the equation relative to the number of instances. A highly important one as any arm of government should not ever, ever unfairly treat its people. For that reason alone, fixing our police forces is a high priority, but no less is fixing the criminals lurking within our neighborhoods preying on innocent people.

We can't fix "d", but what we can do is shun glamorization of abusive behaviors. There's no place in a civilized, prosperous society for the misogynistic, violent, etc type of crap that's being foisted upon our children and young adults. We don't need people to be religious, but we do need people to act like human beings and tell those peddling this garbage that it has no place in our communities. It is not a "lifestyle choice" to be an abuser of women, to be a crack head, to be a criminal, etc and making excuses or tolerating this crap has to stop.

This is not too hard to fix. We just need a leader willing to try, willing to tell it like it is & follow thru with real action. We will never fix 100% of our problems, but can't we fix 30% or 50% or 70%? I know one thing, we'll fix 0% doing what we're doing now. We're too divided as a country and nobody wants to work with anyone else & seemingly everyone would rather we all suffer instead of seeing anyone else have a chance at a better life.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
9,048
Location
North Shore, Chicago
It’s just amazing how much can change in a generation or two. I wore very few clothes not previously worn by 1 or 2 of my other brothers. We all got one clean pair of trousers and one clean shirt for the first day of school, birthdays and Christmas we got shoes or something, if we were lucky one “present”. There were never any leftovers because we ate everything that was made.

We’re quite lucky to live in a country where not having a car, a big screen tv & a cellphone is still considered poor.
Fixed it for you.
 

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
960
I think the 600 lb gorilla in this conversation that we aren’t mentioning is politics. I know it’s taboo to talk about but it’s been mixed into all of these things to such a degree it’s inescapable at this point. I think education would be better situated to focus on actual education, 2+2, gramma, solar system kinda stuff. I think we can all agree to fund schools to the degree they need if politics weren’t mixed in. Let social programs do the social stuff, cops do the criminal stuff and teachers do the actual teaching. Teachers should not be interpreting history for example, just teach what occurred from a fact standpoint. We have to stop expecting teachers to raise our kids or setting/resetting the moral compass, both are full time responsibilities. Teachers are not positioned to do that effectively, as to truly raise a child you have to be in their lives 24/7. It’s one thing to tell a child not to hit or steal it’s another all together to guide his/her analysis of social faults and politically based beliefs. If a child lacks that ability it is a counselor who should be involved and that counselor should come from a robustly financed social program which there again is developed for the child’s mental health and nothing else.
 

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
960
I think you have to trust that you gave him every tool for success that you could. There are people who follow the same rocky circuitous route that he is on and end up quite successful. At the very least he probably has enough smarts to survive even his initial self sabotage. You are doing the right thing showing him unconditional love in the meantime. He may turn to you for advice in the future.

Hey Stinger, just letting you know since you expressed sincere concern. Unbeknownst to us my step son has been studying for his GED and taking practice test and tutoring. Today as a result he gave his mother an unexpected gift she truly cherishes, He got his GED ! He called and asked her for a ride to take care of some things he needed to do, because his truck is broken down. They had lunch and he then asked to go to a local vocational school, 2 hours later he exited having taken and passed the final portion of the testing. His diploma has been requested and is on the way. He studied, he paid and he passed. He also told her he wants to go to vocational school and learn HVAC.

I feel like the prayers worked and are working. I think he is seeing some of his mistakes.
 

684Bee

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,660
I think the 600 lb gorilla in this conversation that we aren’t mentioning is politics. I know it’s taboo to talk about but it’s been mixed into all of these things to such a degree it’s inescapable at this point. I think education would be better situated to focus on actual education, 2+2, gramma, solar system kinda stuff. I think we can all agree to fund schools to the degree they need if politics weren’t mixed in. Let social programs do the social stuff, cops do the criminal stuff and teachers do the actual teaching. Teachers should not be interpreting history for example, just teach what occurred from a fact standpoint. We have to stop expecting teachers to raise our kids or setting/resetting the moral compass, both are full time responsibilities. Teachers are not positioned to do that effectively, as to truly raise a child you have to be in their lives 24/7. It’s one thing to tell a child not to hit or steal it’s another all together to guide his/her analysis of social faults and politically based beliefs. If a child lacks that ability it is a counselor who should be involved and that counselor should come from a robustly financed social program which there again is developed for the child’s mental health and nothing else.
Bolded word is ironic and funny.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,150
Hey Stinger, just letting you know since you expressed sincere concern. Unbeknownst to us my step son has been studying for his GED and taking practice test and tutoring. Today as a result he gave his mother an unexpected gift she truly cherishes, He got his GED ! He called and asked her for a ride to take care of some things he needed to do, because his truck is broken down. They had lunch and he then asked to go to a local vocational school, 2 hours later he exited having taken and passed the final portion of the testing. His diploma has been requested and is on the way. He studied, he paid and he passed. He also told her he wants to go to vocational school and learn HVAC.

I feel like the prayers worked and are working. I think he is seeing some of his mistakes.
Such great news! Thank you for sharing. Our children often have resiliency we don’t realize.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
9,048
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I think the 600 lb gorilla in this conversation that we aren’t mentioning is politics. I know it’s taboo to talk about but it’s been mixed into all of these things to such a degree it’s inescapable at this point. I think education would be better situated to focus on actual education, 2+2, gramma, solar system kinda stuff. I think we can all agree to fund schools to the degree they need if politics weren’t mixed in. Let social programs do the social stuff, cops do the criminal stuff and teachers do the actual teaching. Teachers should not be interpreting history for example, just teach what occurred from a fact standpoint. We have to stop expecting teachers to raise our kids or setting/resetting the moral compass, both are full time responsibilities. Teachers are not positioned to do that effectively, as to truly raise a child you have to be in their lives 24/7. It’s one thing to tell a child not to hit or steal it’s another all together to guide his/her analysis of social faults and politically based beliefs. If a child lacks that ability it is a counselor who should be involved and that counselor should come from a robustly financed social program which there again is developed for the child’s mental health and nothing else.
That doesn't exist. Every single history book is a historian's interpretation of the various primary, secondary, and tertiary sources.
 

MidtownJacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,873
Hey Stinger, just letting you know since you expressed sincere concern. Unbeknownst to us my step son has been studying for his GED and taking practice test and tutoring. Today as a result he gave his mother an unexpected gift she truly cherishes, He got his GED ! He called and asked her for a ride to take care of some things he needed to do, because his truck is broken down. They had lunch and he then asked to go to a local vocational school, 2 hours later he exited having taken and passed the final portion of the testing. His diploma has been requested and is on the way. He studied, he paid and he passed. He also told her he wants to go to vocational school and learn HVAC.

I feel like the prayers worked and are working. I think he is seeing some of his mistakes.
So happy to hear this outcome! That is awesome and nothing makes me happier than celebrating good news, especially in these times!
 

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
960
That doesn't exist. Every single history book is a historian's interpretation of the various primary, secondary, and tertiary sources.

was there a civil war ? WWII, Revolutionary War ? Did Stalin run Russia ? Did man land on the moon ? Did Tech get screwed out of a complete championship in 1990 ? ( ok that’s my interpretation). There is fact based history, interrupting why it took place or who was right and wrong is where the politics resides.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,044
was there a civil war ? WWII, Revolutionary War ? Did Stalin run Russia ? Did man land on the moon ? Did Tech get screwed out of a complete championship in 1990 ? ( ok that’s my interpretation). There is fact based history, interrupting why it took place or who was right and wrong is where the politics resides.
There is a saying that in a war, the winner writes the history. Did Germany invade Poland in 1939, or did Germany prevent an allied plan to encircle and dismember Germany? You could simply state military facts about the war, but who fired what kind of mortar shells and what kind of tanks moved in what direction, but that doesn't really tell the history.

Was Stalin the leader who turned the Soviet Union into a super power, or a mass murderer? Interpretation of history isn't only political interpretations, but facts included or excluded plus weight given to those facts. During the cold war, how much weight was given to the fact that the "five-year-plan" killed millions of poor people and political opponents? During the cold war, how much weight was given to the fact that Stalin raised the Soviet Union to an economic and military super power? Was Mao a great leader who re-united China, or a mad-man who raped children? You don't even have to use the words "great" or "mad-man". It depends on which facts are presented and how much weight is given to them.

History should look at the politics of the past. I don't think the 18th amendment is widely discussed in schools today, only in passing. Why was the 18th amendment ratified? Why was the 18th amendment repealed? Why is it not discussed more in the history of the US? What lessons could the history of the politics around the 18th amendment teach us about similar things that are occurring today?
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,150
There is a saying that in a war, the winner writes the history. Did Germany invade Poland in 1939, or did Germany prevent an allied plan to encircle and dismember Germany? You could simply state military facts about the war, but who fired what kind of mortar shells and what kind of tanks moved in what direction, but that doesn't really tell the history.

Was Stalin the leader who turned the Soviet Union into a super power, or a mass murderer? Interpretation of history isn't only political interpretations, but facts included or excluded plus weight given to those facts. During the cold war, how much weight was given to the fact that the "five-year-plan" killed millions of poor people and political opponents? During the cold war, how much weight was given to the fact that Stalin raised the Soviet Union to an economic and military super power? Was Mao a great leader who re-united China, or a mad-man who raped children? You don't even have to use the words "great" or "mad-man". It depends on which facts are presented and how much weight is given to them.

History should look at the politics of the past. I don't think the 18th amendment is widely discussed in schools today, only in passing. Why was the 18th amendment ratified? Why was the 18th amendment repealed? Why is it not discussed more in the history of the US? What lessons could the history of the politics around the 18th amendment teach us about similar things that are occurring today?
The following responses should not be construed as either an attempted endorsement or refutation of your argument. Just my first thoughts about your provocative comments.

Many years ago I was at a symposium on history and a prominent historian said that an “objective” history would simply be charts and graphs showing migrations, wars, births, deaths and changes in geographical borders. Once you attempt any kind of narrative you are putting an interpretation on things. But history requires narrative.

Western civilization is predicated on the idea that truth is attainable. Hence, Socratic method. We keep testing the narrative.

There is much apoplexy currently over critical race theory and the 1619 project, especially by people who have never studied the concepts or know nothing about them but who have an intuitive fear that the power center is shifting. Sometimes we cling to old narratives without any real reflection on why we do that.

“Lies My Teacher Told Me” is one of my favorite books about American history. Points out hundreds of factual errors that have been routine in history text books through the years and the myths that were built around these errors, many of which have become standard beliefs for Americans. It is hard for Americans to not adopt the mythology of America which causes us to routinely teach and swallow whole outright factually false information.

I learned some new things from watching the Ken Burns special on the 18th Amendment. I always just assumed it was a misguided attempt to impose a certain morality on other people. The context for the amendment is fascinating and one could argue led to a much longer discussion that continues to this day about the scourge of drug addiction in our society. The raw numbers of how many families were being destroyed at one time by alcohol were eye opening for me.

Getting history right almost by definition requires time and constant revision.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,044
The following responses should not be construed as either an attempted endorsement or refutation of your argument. Just my first thoughts about your provocative comments.
It wasn't my intent to be provocative, and I wasn't trying to declare a political belief. Hopefully my post won't lead to a political debate about Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or prohibition. I was simply trying to point out, like you said that unless all you have are charts and graphs, someone has to describe what happened. That description is going to have bias. I don't see any way around that. I have never had a desire to do a detailed study of the Chinese Communist Revolution. If I did decide to study it, I would read several different books from several different authors with at least one being a translated Chinese account. I might agree with or disagree with some or all of some of the authors. My intent would be to get as many facts as I can from as many sources as I can to hopefully reach conclusions on my own. Just because something is written in a book doesn't mean that it is true, any more than being on the internet means that something is true. I think for history, just like I say for news, people should get as much information from as many sources as possible, be skeptical about everything, and make decisions about what you believe on your own.
 

LibertyTurns

Banned
Messages
6,216
That doesn't exist. Every single history book is a historian's interpretation of the various primary, secondary, and tertiary sources.
There’s some pretty basic history things that can be taught that are generally not up for dispute. Here’s some examples:

a. George Washington was our first President. I never met him, but I think it’s unlikely it’s not the case.
b. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, pretty sure it wasn’t the Laotians.
c. We have a Declaration of Independence, a Constitution and you can read the words for yourself. I’m fairly certain the CIA didn’t swap them out in the middle of the night while we all weren’t looking.

Interpreting history and understanding the motives behind actions is very interesting. Teach our children the facts, not some crazy theories intended to make people feel better for their failings. When we start justifying bad behavior, because we claim it’s not someone’s fault we’re losing the essence of what we are as a nation.

We have laws and we have processes to change them. Don’t like your laws, vote for someone that will change it. As far as the rest of the world goes, there’s one place they want to live and it’s not China, Russia, France, Sweden, Finland, etc. The numbers do not lie.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,150
It wasn't my intent to be provocative, and I wasn't trying to declare a political belief. Hopefully my post won't lead to a political debate about Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or prohibition. I was simply trying to point out, like you said that unless all you have are charts and graphs, someone has to describe what happened. That description is going to have bias. I don't see any way around that. I have never had a desire to do a detailed study of the Chinese Communist Revolution. If I did decide to study it, I would read several different books from several different authors with at least one being a translated Chinese account. I might agree with or disagree with some or all of some of the authors. My intent would be to get as many facts as I can from as many sources as I can to hopefully reach conclusions on my own. Just because something is written in a book doesn't mean that it is true, any more than being on the internet means that something is true. I think for history, just like I say for news, people should get as much information from as many sources as possible, be skeptical about everything, and make decisions about what you believe on your own.
I did not mean provocative in a perjorative sense. I simply meant provoking thought and discussion.

I tied to qualify my responses to you because I sense that you sometimes think I am arguing with you when I am simply adding thoughts to the conversation.

Someone said Socrates first said this but I have read Socrates extensively and never ran across it but anyway the quote is…
“A smart person learns from anything and anyone, an average person only learns from those he already agrees with and a stupid person learns from no one because he already knows everything.”

I appreciate your comments.
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,589
The US ranks 27 in the world in social mobility.
I'll repeat what I said. Perhaps you missed it:
Many people who do such studies do them to support political biases.
So to reply to me by saying what you said above, did indeed make me laugh. I hope you are not that obtuse in your reading to miss such obvious nonsense.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,150
What you said had no direct bearing on the actual data. The data has no bias. But I’m guessing you have not looked at the data and are making assumptions.
 
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