Ahmaud Arbery murder case

[GTpdm]

Nm

 

[armeck]

A black delivery driver filmed himself being trapped in an Oklahoma City neighborhood as an HOA president demanded to know why he was there

A black delivery driver in Oklahoma City says a neighborhood's homeowners' association (HOA) president blocked him into the gated community and demanded to know why he was there and how he got in.

Travis Miller, a home appliance and furniture delivery driver, captured the ordeal on Facebook Live, in a video that's now been watched more than 170,000 times.

He told KFOR that he was making a delivery in the Ashford Hills neighborhood of Oklahoma City on Monday when a man claiming to be the president of homeowners' association blocked him from exiting the gated community with his car.

Video of the incident shows the man, self-identified as David Stewart, repeatedly asking Miller why he was in the gated community. The video shows that a white car had been parked in front of Miller's truck, so he couldn't drive forward.

Miller refused to tell Stewart who he dropped packages off to in the neighborhood, citing customer privacy.

About 30 minutes into the Facebook video, another man joined Stewart, and asked Miller: "All we want to know is why you're in here and who gave you the gate code. That's all we need to know."

 

[GT_EE78]

So, in order to make a citizens arrest, they would have had to see him commit a crime.

Do you really think that police have to be an eye witness in order to make an arrest?
you don't need to witness a crime to have probable cause that a crime was committed. Probable cause for arrest/detention has the same standard for police as it does for ordinary citizens. So - - if the dad McMichael was instead a local cop patrolling the neighborhood, and he saw a commotion and observed a known burglary suspect sprinting from a known burglary target, he rolls his window down and says “stop” and the suspect keeps sprinting, that is 100% probable cause that he committed another burglary. To think that a cop couldn’t chase this guy down is laughable. And if a cop could chase him down, a citizen could as well, because probable cause is probable cause.

 

[GT_EE78]

Is it in question if he was aggressively trying to stop Arbery? Is it in question if he was trying to cause Arbery to fear and submit?Using a weapon to cause another person to fear for their lives is assault. It doesn't matter if the gun is discharged. It doesn't matter if the gun is pointed. It is assault as soon as it is used to create fear in another person.

The DA who investigated found no assault partly because GA is an “open carry” state. Example: Hundreds of angry protesters show up in Michigan at the Capitol carrying AR-15s and angrily getting in the faces of the pols. Aggravated assault? Sure, the pols are scared and in fear, but the underlying behavior is legal. As long as McMichael didn't point the shotgun at Arbery, how can there be an assault? (We can't tell from the video because the driver-side door was open.) Since an assault requires putting the victim in “fear” and since Mr. Arbery will not be around to testify, and he charged 15 feet and made a bee-line to grab the shotgun, that suggests that he wasn’t afraid of the gun, but rather afraid of going to jail.(it's not like Mr Arbery hasn't done this before)

 

[GT_EE78]

- the homeowner never reported any crime.

media told stories about Duke Lacrosse and Covington high school too.
The owner of the house told the Daily Beast that on previous occasions he had stuff stolen from his house, including $2,500 worth of fishing gear. The owner—after receiving death threats and threats to burn down his home—has now suggested that nothing was ever taken. we'll have to wait to see what he says under oath.
A neighbor who called 911 told the dispatcher that the owner’s house had been burglarized a number of times recently.
McMichaels told the cops that their had been a rash of burglaries and other crimes involving the house and their vehicle.
(For a neighborhood that the media tells us only had one problem in the months leading up to this incident, it seems to have a lot of residents who were mistakenly under the impression that there was a crime wave. 3 residents, the McMichaels and the 911 caller referred to multiple crimes.)
There are photos/video of Arbery inside of the house (at night) that have been released.
We don’t know for sure if he stole anything or, more importantly, if he tried to steal anything, because we have only seen 10 seconds of video when he was in the house for about 2 to 4 minutes. (Although the photo of his jogging hammer might be a clue)
One would have to be thoroughly naïve to believe that a convicted felon and thief who lived miles away, who had previously burglarized the home and who sprinted full speed out of the house when the neighbor yelled at him, was in that house for lawful purposes.

 

[RonJohn]

The DA who investigated found no assault partly because GA is an “open carry” state. Example: Hundreds of angry protesters show up in Michigan at the Capitol carrying AR-15s and angrily getting in the faces of the pols. Aggravated assault? Sure, the pols are scared and in fear, but the underlying behavior is legal. As long as McMichael didn't point the shotgun at Arbery, how can there be an assault? (We can't tell from the video because the driver-side door was open.) Since an assault requires putting the victim in “fear” and since Mr. Arbery will not be around to testify, and he charged 15 feet and made a bee-line to grab the shotgun, that suggests that he wasn’t afraid of the gun, but rather afraid of going to jail.(it's not like Mr Arbery hasn't done this before)

Open carry does not protect you from prosecution for threatening someone with a gun. In Georgia, just placing a person in fear of violent injury is assault. Committing assault with a weapon is a felony. You don't have to point the gun at him, you only have to have a gun while you cause the person to fear.

 

[RonJohn]

Do you really think that police have to be an eye witness in order to make an arrest?
you don't need to witness a crime to have probable cause that a crime was committed. Probable cause for arrest/detention has the same standard for police as it does for ordinary citizens. So - - if the dad McMichael was instead a local cop patrolling the neighborhood, and he saw a commotion and observed a known burglary suspect sprinting from a known burglary target, he rolls his window down and says “stop” and the suspect keeps sprinting, that is 100% probable cause that he committed another burglary. To think that a cop couldn’t chase this guy down is laughable. And if a cop could chase him down, a citizen could as well, because probable cause is probable cause.

Citizen's arrest in Georgia IS based on the citizen having direct knowledge of a crime being committed. It has to be committed in the presence of the person making the citizen's arrest. Probably cause isn't sufficient for a citizen's arrest, only immediate and direct personally derived knowledge of a crime.

A private citizen yelling stop is not a legal command that must be followed by the person being yelled at. If you yell at me, I can run if I want to. If I run from you, you are not a law enforcement official so you cannot take my running as a reason to follow and hold me.

You are combining and twisting many things to try to make it OK for a private citizen to detain someone who they didn't witness commit a crime. That in and of itself is actually false imprisonment, which is a felony. A private citizen attempting to make a citizen's arrest has to be very careful. If the citizen didn't actually see a crime in progress, they can be charged with false imprisonment. It doesn't matter if they thought that they did see a crime in progress, you don't get the protection unless a crime has been committed. It can't be maybe saw a crime, the statute requires both a crime to have been committed and for the person making the arrest to have directly witnessed it. Also, to chase someone to make a citizen's arrest the crime must be a felony.

 

[RonJohn]

Open carry does not protect you from prosecution for threatening someone with a gun. In Georgia, just placing a person in fear of violent injury is assault. Committing assault with a weapon is a felony. You don't have to point the gun at him, you only have to have a gun while you cause the person to fear.

EDIT: There is no way that I can devise that McMichael didn't intend to cause Arbery to fear. What was the reason for having the shotgun? It was either to cause Arbery to have fear and submit to stop or McMichael believed Arbery was armed and wanted to create fear to prevent Arbery from drawing a weapon. Either way the intent is to cause Arbery to be afraid.

 

[armeck]

EDIT: There is no way that I can devise that McMichael didn't intend to cause Arbery to fear. What was the reason for having the shotgun? It was either to cause Arbery to have fear and submit to stop or McMichael believed Arbery was armed and wanted to create fear to prevent Arbery from drawing a weapon. Either way the intent is to cause Arbery to be afraid.

Amazingly enough, had the McMichael's NOT armed themselves, and everything else played out the same - Arbery would be the one going to jail.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Do you really think that police have to be an eye witness in order to make an arrest?
you don't need to witness a crime to have probable cause that a crime was committed. Probable cause for arrest/detention has the same standard for police as it does for ordinary citizens. So - - if the dad McMichael was instead a local cop patrolling the neighborhood, and he saw a commotion and observed a known burglary suspect sprinting from a known burglary target, he rolls his window down and says “stop” and the suspect keeps sprinting, that is 100% probable cause that he committed another burglary. To think that a cop couldn’t chase this guy down is laughable. And if a cop could chase him down, a citizen could as well, because probable cause is probable cause.

Police are paid to make arrests, including just suspects, whether they witnessed the crime in question or not. When citizens start being allowed to make arrests of suspects, then we are edging towards what happened, and was encouraged in Nazi Germany, where citizens were encouraged to snitch, turn in their neighbors, or handle themselves. Is this really what you want? I know already that you object to the draconian tactics engaged in by several state governments. Some governors and mayors are encouraging and requesting snitching, and citizen arrests are probably not far away in such instances either. I KNOW that is not what you want, so why do you attempt to justify it here in this case?

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

I generally wouldn't trust Yahoo News anymore than I trust China, but I also saw this reported on the CBS evening news tonight.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/security-cam-video-raises-questions-150615409.html

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Quite frankly, I think this entire thread and the Corona virus thread as well should be shut down or moved to the Political Threads section, because, unfortunately, it is apparently no longer possible to discuss any (ANY) current event without injecting politics into the discussion.

 

[RonJohn]

Quite frankly, I think this entire thread and the Corona virus thread as well should be shut down or moved to the Political Threads section, because, unfortunately, it is apparently no longer possible to discuss any (ANY) current event without injecting politics into the discussion.

It is possible to discuss issues and stick to facts around those issues, but many people won't. Many people look at everything as a larger tribal argument and can't look at individual issues separate from that.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

It is possible to discuss issues and stick to facts around those issues, but many people won't. Many people look at everything as a larger tribal argument and can't look at individual issues separate from that.

I sure haven't seen much of that sticking to facts lately.

 

[Techster]

LOL.

This thread is starting to remind me of the old political threads. The same handfull of guys attacking anyone that doesn't agree with their views, a bunch of "fake news" getting tossed about because people can't deal with facts, conspiracy theories proven to be untrue yet still being brought up...

Good times.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

LOL.

This thread is starting to remind me of the old political threads. The same handfull of guys attacking anyone that doesn't agree with their views, a bunch of "fake news" getting tossed about because people can't deal with facts, conspiracy theories proven to be untrue yet still being brought up...

Good times.

What proven untrue conspiracy theories you’re referring to?

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

EDIT: There is no way that I can devise that McMichael didn't intend to cause Arbery to fear. What was the reason for having the shotgun? It was either to cause Arbery to have fear and submit to stop or McMichael believed Arbery was armed and wanted to create fear to prevent Arbery from drawing a weapon. Either way the intent is to cause Arbery to be afraid.

You are really misinterpreting this fear requirement I believe. If all it takes is for someone to be fearful of another person for a crime to have been committed, I'd say that 25% or more of our population would be deemed criminals today.

 

[RonJohn]

You are really misinterpreting this fear requirement I believe. If all it takes is for someone to be fearful of another person for a crime to have been committed, I'd say that 25% or more of our population would be deemed criminals today.

It takes a "reasonable apprehension" of receiving a violent injury. Ignore the specifics of race in this case. If two people pull up beside you in a vehicle and the driver jumps out with a gun yelling at you to 'STOP!!!!!!!". Is it reasonable to fear that he intends to harm you? What if it is two black people in the car and the pull up quickly beside you on a sidewalk in West Midtown? Would it be "reasonable" for you to fear being injured? The law isn't written based on race. If two black guys with guns can cause a reasonable fear, then two white guys can case fear if they commit the same action.

Words like "reasonable apprehension" are used so that a single person's fear or phobia doesn't rise to a criminal matter.

Look at it even further. This year, the Georgia legislature was reviewing a change to the law in Georgia because "brandishing" a gun is considered aggravated assault. https://www.ajc.com/news/state--reg...ke-legal-brandish-gun/Oe2x0xPUTKP99PueauFWdI/ According to that artile:

Under current law, a person who pulls a gun on someone faces a felony aggravated assault charge, which carries up to 20 years in prison.

“My argument is: just because I have a weapon on my person and I show that weapon, I should not be charged with a felony — a 20-year felony — for simply brandishing my firearm in my attempt to de-escalate what I consider a situation where I felt threatened,” Harper said.

Senate Bill 224 would require someone who displays or pulls a gun to aim that weapon at the person — or otherwise use it “in a threatening manner” — before he or she could be charged with felony aggravated assault.

So, currently under Georgia law, you don't even have to use the gun "in a threatening manner" to be considered aggravated assault, only to have that weapon on display during an altercation. McMichael did have the gun visible. He was shouting at Arbery, at least according to the statements that he and his father made to the police. Currently under Georgia law, that IS aggravated assault.

You can hem and haw all you want and think of how maybe McMichael didn't intend for any of this to happen. It doesn't matter. He did not clearly and immediately witness Arbery commit a crime. He didn't clearly and immediately witness Arbery commit a felony from which he was fleeing. Those are required to make a citizen's arrest, and even if you believe you witnessed a crime, if it was not a crime you are criminally and civilly liable for the actions you take. He chased Arbery with a gun, which under Georgia law is aggravated assault and is a felony. Arbery died as a result of that felony, which is felony murder under Georgia law.

It does not matter if Arbery was white or black. It does not matter if his father believed Arbery had committed a crime. It does not matter if he thought that they should hold on to Arbery and let the police find out if he had committed a crime. The only things that matter are the actions that McMichael took. He chased Arbery with a gun. That chase resulted in Arbery's death. Only going by strict reading of the statutes, that if felony murder no matter what McMichael believed or thought he was authorized to do.

EDIT: BTW I disagree with that Georgia lawmaker. I don't currently have a weapons license, but when I did I never showed my firearm to anyone while I was carrying. My though was that I didn't want anyone to know I had a gun, until it was absolutely necessary to use it. If someone had gotten angry and pulled a gun, it would not have "de-escalated" the situation. I would have immediately drawn my gun and shot them to ensure that I shot him before he shot me.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

What proven untrue conspiracy theories you’re referring to?

I think I remember this drive by debunked conspiracy theory before - then we ask what and they never respond again. Oh well.

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

It takes a "reasonable apprehension" of receiving a violent injury. Ignore the specifics of race in this case. If two people pull up beside you in a vehicle and the driver jumps out with a gun yelling at you to 'STOP!!!!!!!". Is it reasonable to fear that he intends to harm you? What if it is two black people in the car and the pull up quickly beside you on a sidewalk in West Midtown? Would it be "reasonable" for you to fear being injured? The law isn't written based on race. If two black guys with guns can cause a reasonable fear, then two white guys can case fear if they commit the same action.

Words like "reasonable apprehension" are used so that a single person's fear or phobia doesn't rise to a criminal matter.

Look at it even further. This year, the Georgia legislature was reviewing a change to the law in Georgia because "brandishing" a gun is considered aggravated assault. https://www.ajc.com/news/state--reg...ke-legal-brandish-gun/Oe2x0xPUTKP99PueauFWdI/ According to that artile:

So, currently under Georgia law, you don't even have to use the gun "in a threatening manner" to be considered aggravated assault, only to have that weapon on display during an altercation. McMichael did have the gun visible. He was shouting at Arbery, at least according to the statements that he and his father made to the police. Currently under Georgia law, that IS aggravated assault.

You can hem and haw all you want and think of how maybe McMichael didn't intend for any of this to happen. It doesn't matter. He did not clearly and immediately witness Arbery commit a crime. He didn't clearly and immediately witness Arbery commit a felony from which he was fleeing. Those are required to make a citizen's arrest, and even if you believe you witnessed a crime, if it was not a crime you are criminally and civilly liable for the actions you take. He chased Arbery with a gun, which under Georgia law is aggravated assault and is a felony. Arbery died as a result of that felony, which is felony murder under Georgia law.

It does not matter if Arbery was white or black. It does not matter if his father believed Arbery had committed a crime. It does not matter if he thought that they should hold on to Arbery and let the police find out if he had committed a crime. The only things that matter are the actions that McMichael took. He chased Arbery with a gun. That chase resulted in Arbery's death. Only going by strict reading of the statutes, that if felony murder no matter what McMichael believed or thought he was authorized to do.

EDIT: BTW I disagree with that Georgia lawmaker. I don't currently have a weapons license, but when I did I never showed my firearm to anyone while I was carrying. My though was that I didn't want anyone to know I had a gun, until it was absolutely necessary to use it. If someone had gotten angry and pulled a gun, it would not have "de-escalated" the situation. I would have immediately drawn my gun and shot them to ensure that I shot him before he shot me.

A few thoughts on your diatribe.

1) You can have witnessed or have immediate knowledge of a misdemeanor as well in order to make a citizens arrest.

https://www.georgialegalaid.org/resource/rights-during-arrest

2) I don't think you or I know all the facts about what the McMichaels may or may not have had knowledge of at the time of the citizens arrest.

3) Arbery's actions were not fearful, and yes, that is my opinion.