ACC Tourney

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GTRX7

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We won this game in the regular season when we earned the double bye. We had an off night and Miami's legs gave out late in the second half. If both teams play the same on the same rest, we lose 10/10. That is not luck, we earned the double bye and Miami didn't. Kudos to Tech for doing just enough to survive and advance.
 

gt24

Jolly Good Fellow
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Usher is typical inbounder you want, and really hasn't been an issue all year except for Duke briefly. You want Moses back as a finisher down low as it's clearly his best role. You want your ball handlers runnning up the court to go receive the ball, especially since they are the people we want shooting FTs. And if we do break a trap on the sideline, we want Usher to be the one streaking down the middle because with a head of steam he's hard to stop. His size also make it easier for him to serve as the pivot role in the press.

Also, your analysis of the final play is way off in my opinion. Both of the options you listed weren't safe. Kyle looked open but his defender had distanced himself as was playing to undercut the pass. The inbound defender for Miami also would have forced the pass wider allowing more time for the defender to undercut it. It would have been a similar situation as what happened with throwing it to space and hoping the player would have gone and grabbed it but the defender on Kyle had more chances to get to the space. Lobbing to the smallest dude on the court is not really a strong idea, but even more so because Bubba didn't have his defender seals. He defender was shading Bubba to discourage a pass, but Bubba never really got into the body of the defender. A lob pass there to space would have seen a footrace between Bubba and the defender at best.

The pass to Jose wasn't the right type of pass, but it was the right decision. But it's hard to try and throw a pass with more air when not only is Jose smaller than his defender, but Miami had a second player in the area.

The bigger issue, not just in that situation or inbounding, is our guards are bad about going and aggressively getting the ball. It's been an issue for the past several years. Another example of it was when Moses picked up his 4th foul. Moore, I believe, was coming back to the ball and sort of just have showed and then cut away when Moses was clearly looking for an outlet. That was also the issue with Mike on the second inbound issue against Duke (the long pass was just bad defense)

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usher physically might match an archetype, but comfort/experience/vision/passing is not there. its more than just dook. as i said, even when we did not have ugly turnovers in other games, you can see it. you can see it even before the passes are made. it was there earlier in the year (although not as dramatically as in the dook game). there is not a large sample size bc most college teams dont press, and even when they do sometimes they allow inbounds instead of denying. but in the small sample size, his struggles have been consistent. that's why i am questioning pastner, and not ush.

i agree with you about the guards getting open, and that is a piece of it. a big piece, to your point.

i agree that moses is gonna be down court usually (not tonight tho), but the other is khalid. switch ush and khalid. or take khalid out for a 3-guard lineup and have mike inbound so he is the reversal after the inbound. would also relieve mike of being in traps, where he struggles, which is another thing that jumps off the tape for coaches (again, not just tonight or dook).

as for the final play, i saw the same thing as you about kyles defender trying to bait the pass. kyle needed to post him up. but it was still there. bubba had the whole front court open and sealed when i paused it and looked at it. to your point about guards not helping, mike had his man sealed, but cut all the way to the sideline instead of posting and securing enough court space for the pass. all of those are bang bang decisions. i question the play design of having 4 guys cutting to the ball. when they put a defender on-ball on the sideline, clear out and post-up for a lob to space.

regardless of that last play, my overall point remains the same. when a guy on paper has the size/specs for that inbounder spot, it does not mean it matches his skill or disposition or experience-level or just plain old comfort-level.
 

Ramblingon

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Great win, even without Moses half of the game. Kudos to Howard for doing a good job in his place. The final inbounds play shows how great Alvarado is for just plain effort. Miami played a very good game, but were gassed at the end, as expected. Wong is going to be a good one.
 

lv20gt

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usher physically might match an archetype, but comfort/experience/vision/passing is not there. its more than just dook. as i said, even when we did not have ugly turnovers in other games, you can see it. you can see it even before the passes are made. it was there earlier in the year (although not as dramatically as in the dook game). there is not a large sample size bc most college teams dont press, and even when they do sometimes they allow inbounds instead of denying. but in the small sample size, his struggles have been consistent. that's why i am questioning pastner, and not ush.

You're not going to be comfortable in those situations when they almost never happen. Also, I am very reluctant to believe anything that is based on "you can just see it" after some of the things I've read on these forums. People get a thought in their mind and then just see what they need to reinforce it.

as for the final play, i saw the same thing as you about kyles defender trying to bait the pass. kyle needed to post him up. but it was still there. bubba had the whole front court open and sealed when i paused it and looked at it. to your point about guards not helping, mike had his man sealed, but cut all the way to the sideline instead of posting and securing enough court space for the pass. all of those are bang bang decisions. i question the play design of having 4 guys cutting to the ball. when they put a defender on-ball on the sideline, clear out and post-up for a lob to space.

The pass to kyle was still there in a very dangerous throwing the ball right to the front of your opponents basket way. So no, it really wasn't there. You take a 5 second before you throw that pass. Bubba did have the whole front court, but he wasn't sealed and wasn't even trying to seal. He came up, paused to set his defender up for a move to try and get behind the defense (in relation to Usher) about where he ended up when Jose saved the pass. At best, a pass to the front court is foot race and likely it would have just been a turnover with Bubba doing a move to get open in the back court.

There was nothing really wrong with the play design. The motion was designed to either get Devoe the ball in the center, or if that was taken away, and assuming they stopped the most direct motion from Kyle, it flattened out the defense to give space for a pass to Jose long. Even Bubba's motion was designed to give Jose an immediate pass up the sideline as you saw him start to curl up court before realizing that the pass went long and going to get the ball. That's why you can't look at a still frame and draw conclusions. The issue is, for whatever reason (maybe related to his injury) Jose didn't really set up his defender at all. If he goes hard about two more steps then there is an easy entry pass or his defender takes it away and the defense is super flat for the lob to the other side. But he just sort of went and sat at the elbow which allowed his defender to not really have to commit to taking the direct entry so it made the play to throw it over harder.

The way Usher threw it also made it pretty much either Jose could get it or it'd go out of bounds which is what you have to do. Even if you get more air, you still throw it a bit long for the same reason.
 

gt24

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You're not going to be comfortable in those situations when they almost never happen. Also, I am very reluctant to believe anything that is based on "you can just see it" after some of the things I've read on these forums. People get a thought in their mind and then just see what they need to reinforce it.



The pass to kyle was still there in a very dangerous throwing the ball right to the front of your opponents basket way. So no, it really wasn't there. You take a 5 second before you throw that pass. Bubba did have the whole front court, but he wasn't sealed and wasn't even trying to seal. He came up, paused to set his defender up for a move to try and get behind the defense (in relation to Usher) about where he ended up when Jose saved the pass. At best, a pass to the front court is foot race and likely it would have just been a turnover with Bubba doing a move to get open in the back court.

There was nothing really wrong with the play design. The motion was designed to either get Devoe the ball in the center, or if that was taken away, and assuming they stopped the most direct motion from Kyle, it flattened out the defense to give space for a pass to Jose long. Even Bubba's motion was designed to give Jose an immediate pass up the sideline as you saw him start to curl up court before realizing that the pass went long and going to get the ball. That's why you can't look at a still frame and draw conclusions. The issue is, for whatever reason (maybe related to his injury) Jose didn't really set up his defender at all. If he goes hard about two more steps then there is an easy entry pass or his defender takes it away and the defense is super flat for the lob to the other side. But he just sort of went and sat at the elbow which allowed his defender to not really have to commit to taking the direct entry so it made the play to throw it over harder.

The way Usher threw it also made it pretty much either Jose could get it or it'd go out of bounds which is what you have to do. Even if you get more air, you still throw it a bit long for the same reason.
fair point about the play design. i should have been clearer to not question the particulars, but question the overall approach. on a EOG SLOB vs m2m deny press, if there is a defender on the inbounder (as opposed to playing off to double/deny), i'd prefer a simplified approach... clear out the back court and post up for a lob to space if denied/fronted, or a bounce pass to space if trailed or three-quartered.

before the desperation of the final second, bubba was ballside on the midcourt line with his defender in full deny, he had the entire front court sealed off and all 10 players in the backcourt, later when play brokedown he cut middle toward jose. the potential pass to kyle was in front of the basket? it would have been toward the near sideline/corner, not near the basket or lane like jose. jose was directly in front of their basket at the FT line. the pass was right to the FT line of their basket. agree with you that, at that point, the lob pass to the far side was called for given jose's positioning, that was part of my OP.

i agree about fans getting hung up on a particular thought, and then seeking out confirmation bias. in this case/example, i guess we just disagree. it jumped off the screen to me earlier in the season long before dook, even when we did not experience meltdowns or near meltdowns like dook and miami. even when it did not result in a TO, it was harder than it needed to be to inbound vs deny. so once i saw it in limited sample size, i watched for it over time to see if it was a one-off or if it's consistently there. i watched for it even when were not melting. imo, its consistent, even when it does not manifest itself in TOs or EOG meltdowns. your analysis of our guards not helping the inbounder with consistent execution (screens, cuts, seals, posts) i agree with.

if i'm wrong with my observations of ush as the inbounder, i still disagree with pastner doing the following: having ush play that spot most of the year (a few exceptions) including the dook game last week that mimicked tonights situation, and then tonight from the ~3 min mark all the way until the final 30 seconds not having ush play that spot (not even once), and then over the course of the final ~3 mins juggling 4 different players as inbounders.

EOG vs m2m deny press with lead, i'd prefer 3-guard lineup. mike jose kyle/bubba ush moses. mike inbounding and trailing for reversals. if we are concerned about defense/rebounding with small lead, and therefore dont want smaller 3-guard lineup, i'd prefer khalid inbound.

i guess we just disagree. either way, its fun to compare notes and viewpoints. especially fun to do so after a win that moves us into the semis (as opposed to an ugly loss caused by an EOG meltdown).
 

MidtownJacket

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Usher mentions in his postgame presser he takes responsibility for the passes there at the end.

This team is my favorite by a country mile I have followed. They’re accountable to each other, leave it all on the court and play a blue collar style that is more about the team than any one player. Hell Alvarado was actively campaigning against himself for Moses for ACCPOY.
 

first&ten

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In bounding the ball looked just like a Hewitt team!! No excuses to not figure out how to in bound, this will beat us in the future ! To be truthful, both teams looked like loosers the last 3 minutes.
 

Techster

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Usher mentions in his postgame presser he takes responsibility for the passes there at the end.

This team is my favorite by a country mile I have followed. They’re accountable to each other, leave it all on the court and play a blue collar style that is more about the team than any one player. Hell Alvarado was actively campaigning against himself for Moses for ACCPOY.

Such a fun team. No elite level recruits, just a bunch of grinders who all developed together over the years.

If you follow the players on Twitter, you can tell they all love each other like real brothers.

What's even better is each of them roots for the other to be stars. There is no selfishness among them.
 

MidtownJacket

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Such a fun team. No elite level recruits, just a bunch of grinders who all developed together over the years.

If you follow the players on Twitter, you can tell they all love each other like real brothers.

What's even better is each of them roots for the other to be stars. There is no selfishness among them.
Yeah the back and forth between the guys shows a chemistry that is real and awesome
 

lv20gt

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before the desperation of the final second, bubba was ballside on the midcourt line with his defender in full deny, he had the entire front court sealed off and all 10 players in the backcourt, later when play brokedown he cut middle toward jose

Bubba comes up and almost immediately goes for a pseudo swim move to get away from the defender but going further into the back court. It looks entirely like the play designed was for him to work towards the middle to act as an outlet pass for the inbounder streaking up the far sideline, while I would guess Ush filling the same role on the near sideline. You can't just throw it into the front court to run under if you know the play design has the player coming further up the court.

the potential pass to kyle was in front of the basket? it would have been toward the near sideline/corner, not near the basket or lane like jose.

Are you talking about on the initial break or later afterwards. Later, Kyle did a little push to create some separation, and you could pass there, but it's passing into the corner where the double would have come almost instantly. We could have thrown it but that is not where you want to inbound it. I believe we actually saw that on the previous play leading to us being forced to use the time out. I was talking about off the initial action where Miami's defender caught up right when he got to the block by the basket.

EOG vs m2m deny press with lead, i'd prefer 3-guard lineup. mike jose kyle/bubba ush moses. mike inbounding and trailing for reversals. if we are concerned about defense/rebounding with small lead, and therefore dont want smaller 3-guard lineup, i'd prefer khalid inbound.


The obvious problem with your line up, today, was Moses wasn't an option. It's probably why you saw the switching up of inbounders, because we wanted Ush back to serve that role. But in general, I wouldn't want Moore in the game at all in those situations. Historically not a strong FT shooter, not a great ball handler, not used to being asked to make plays. Mike would make more sense in theory, but I don't really know why you would prefer him after what we saw today. He had back to back possessions where he just didn't handle the situation well, and overall I don't think he'd be any more comfortable in that position than Ush.
 

bobongo

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Yeah the back and forth between the guys shows a chemistry that is real and awesome
Chemistry - that elusive quality Bobby Cremins was always seeking (and often found).
Maybe chemistry (and unselfishness) are two major reasons (along with their innate ability) this team handles the ball so well and finds the right shot.
I don't know much about basketball (forgive my pedestrian observations), but that's what impresses me more than anything about this bunch - just the way they can competently whip the ball around.
And they lead the ACC in turnover margin, averaging +4.1 per game.
We've had teams in the past that handled the ball so poorly that more than two passes often led to a turnover. This one is fun to watch.
 
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My opinions from today's game.
The Miami we played a few weeks ago was not the same team. Both of their guards did not play and they started walkons.
Their big man gave us a lot of trouble, which if we end up playing UNC is going to hurt. But Howard came in and did a good job on defense. Get that guy a threat and he will be a great 5 guy.
Who saved us today....Jordan Usher. He was a beast and willed us to a win. Yes Jose made some big plays but Usher attacked all day.
Yes Miami wore down but when you get to the ACC tournament anything can happen
I like our chances tomorrow, it is good we played a tight game.
 
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